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Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2012-04-24, 22:45:22
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I thought I'd start a thread where we can discuss/suggest inexpensive equipment options for people who want to get started with HEMA or WMAW swordplay.
Probably the hardest bit to start with is the sword simulator. Other basic starter gear, such as some sort of jacket/gambeson, fencing mask, and lacrosse gloves are pretty straightforward.
The cheapest AND safest option I've found so far is horrendously ugly, but does the job. You can take a shinai, add a "thrusting tip" by rolling some foam around the end (such that it extends the length of the shinai by 2-3 inches), and then replacing the flat katana-style guard with a crossguard made from PVC. This is really easy to do. For the guard, it's just a 4-way pipe adapter, with two pieces of pipe (maybe 3" long), and two end-caps, all for 1" PVC pipe.
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2012/weapons/b3178.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2012/weapons/b3178b.jpg)
These look horrendously makeshift. But they absorb hits very well, to the point that I think even the padded swords hit harder. So they're relatively safe as starter/practice weapons. Of course, they don't perform the same as steel swords do under a variety of circumstances, such as in the bind. But they also don't require a massive amount of safety gear either. You can get away with lacrosse gloves and a fencing jacket, whereas with a steel sword, you really want steel gauntlets and a gambeson, and probably arm and elbow pads, and a chest protector. That's a huge difference.
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An 8'6" pole of Rattan is $20 and gives you multiple simulator options.
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True, but I'm talking about lighter-hitting (relatively) HEMA/WMA. :)
Shinai only cost around $20-$25, and will work as a good longsword simulator that lets you do crossguard work and (with the padding) safely thrust.
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SCA minimums are no bigger than you would need for energetic Shinai use.
You can get that 1.25" stuff and plane it down to 1" on 2 sides. That will give you a lot of good (with extra for the cross guard), and shinai give a false sense of safety, people think you CAN go without protection so they do.
There is also the Cold Steel method. 2 simulators for about $50.
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Yeah, the Cold Steel trainers certainly work as starters as well. I don't like the weight and balance on them very much, but at about $25 each, they do the job.
A much better synthetic waster can be had from Purple Heart, but they cost considerably more.
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Here are some relevant links, concerning plastic swords:
Cold Steel plastic trainers. As I mentioned above, these really aren't that great. The weight and balance are pretty awful. But in the $25 range, they're not bad for the money, and can be a great way to get started. They come with a somewhat pointy tip that should probably be rounded off before doing any real thrusts.
Hand and a Half: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=CS92BKHNH&name=Cold+Steel+Hand+and+a+Half+Training+Sword (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=CS92BKHNH&name=Cold+Steel+Hand+and+a+Half+Training+Sword)
Single-Hand: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=CS92BKS&name=Cold+Steel+Medieval+Training+Sword (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=CS92BKS&name=Cold+Steel+Medieval+Training+Sword)
Purple Heart synthetics are much better, but cost more. They're pretty durable, reasonably well balanced. But you can hit pretty hard with them if you're not careful. They're also somewhat rigid in the thrust.
Longsword: http://woodenswords.com/WMA/synthetic.LS.typeIII.htm (http://woodenswords.com/WMA/synthetic.LS.typeIII.htm)
Then there's the Rawlings trainers. They feel decent in the hand, and their flex makes them pretty safe for thrusting (provided you don't have eye-slits they can fit through). But that flex makes them terrible for bind-work. The swords tend to just bend around each other.
Longsword: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=600874&name=Rawlings+Synthetic+Sparring+Long+Sword (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=600874&name=Rawlings+Synthetic+Sparring+Long+Sword)
Single-Hand: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=600873&name=Rawlings+Synthetic+Sparring+Single+Hand+Sword (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=600873&name=Rawlings+Synthetic+Sparring+Single+Hand+Sword)
Shinai can be found pretty cheaply online. KoA has them for about $20: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=D503&name=Kendo+Shinai (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=D503&name=Kendo+Shinai)
Wooden swords... In general my feeling is that wooden wasters are OK for controlled drills, solo drills, etc. But not for bouting. You wouldn't fence with baseball bats, would you? They have almost no flex for thrusting, and hit pretty hard. But if you want one, I like Purple Heart and Hollow Earth.
Purple Heart: http://woodenswords.com/WMA/index.htm (http://woodenswords.com/WMA/index.htm)
Hollow Earth: http://www.hollowearthswordworks.com/main_index.htm (http://www.hollowearthswordworks.com/main_index.htm)
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I can attest to how hard those wooden wasters hit, especially the last two Sir Edward named. The Cold Steel trainers have awful balance and I don't consider them adequate to the task. We use shinai currently in my sword class, but I'm hoping to graduate to rebated steel eventually.
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The biggest difference between a shinai and rattan is that the shinai is traditionally a hollow 4-sided sword, whereas the rattan is a solid "club", essentially. If you hit too hard with a shinai, the sword can flex and take a lot of the impact; if you hit too hard with rattan, the recipient of the blow is what gives first - bruises and/or broken bones as a result.
The downside to the shinai is they require a bit more care; the binding strings can fray, and the hollow core on the edges of the 4 "sides" means splinters are more likely than with a piece of solid rattan.
The most important thing to either of those is - can you trust your opponent to not try to maul you? :)
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The biggest difference between a shinai and rattan is that the shinai is traditionally a hollow 4-sided sword, whereas the rattan is a solid "club", essentially. If you hit too hard with a shinai, the sword can flex and take a lot of the impact; if you hit too hard with rattan, the recipient of the blow is what gives first - bruises and/or broken bones as a result.
This to me is why plastic wasters are the lesser of the two "evils" being rattan and shinai. But if I had to choose of of the two, Rattan would be my choice.
The most important thing to either of those is - can you trust your opponent to not try to maul you?
In regards to that I would do two things, first: when you are teaching the student a technique, tell them that you want them to swing, cut, thrust slowly with no power because you're learning. Second, before you bout with your partner, tell that the weapons/trainers can cause injuries if swung or struck with considerable power, tell him to keep the power down or don't use any power at all as that will unbalance him and will injure you. Technique is the key of success in bouting, keep that in mind and make sure you partner keeps that in mind. In summary, bout or fight at half the speed you would use when throwing a strong cut, or what my instructor at SIGMA calls "bouting at half-speed".
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Rattan is great when you're in steel armor, but for most HEMA "Blossfechten", it's done with padding and a fencing mask/helmet, since it's unarmored combat that's being recreated. So something lighter hitting is ideal.
I think with the simulators we've used at VAF, the shinai are the only ones that haven't bruised me up so far. They certainly are capable of it, but they're also very controllable and make it easy to pull your hits.
We've migrated away from wooden wasters, and in our group aluminum never caught on. The aluminum doesn't really afford you anything over steel except maybe being cheaper (depending on who makes it). The aluminum blades have to be made fairly thick to get the right weight, which is fine in the sense that you want wide edges to be safe. However, it doesn't have the sort of flex that steel does, so they have no give at all. So you might as well use steel.
But yeah, any time you face off against an opponent, there's a certain amount of trust that must exist that you won't try to actually hurt each other. Accidents happen of course, since we are after-all trying to do a martial art. Injuries will happen. But if someone is being unsafe, careless, reckless, etc, it's perfectly fine to choose not to fight them.
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Rattan is great when you're in steel armor, but for most HEMA "Blossfechten", it's done with padding and a fencing mask/helmet, since it's unarmored combat that's being recreated. So something lighter hitting is ideal.
Yep! :)
But yeah, any time you face off against an opponent, there's a certain amount of trust that must exist that you won't try to actually hurt each other. Accidents happen of course, since we are after-all trying to do a martial art. Injuries will happen. But if someone is being unsafe, careless, reckless, etc, it's perfectly fine to choose not to fight them.
That I agree Sir Edward! These are the real expectations when bouting, however when the partner is acting unsafe, careless/reckless, don't fight him unless you want a multitude of injuries.
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How is only needing to cover the head, knee's, elbows, crotch, & kidneys any different than what would be needed for say.... vigorous unarmoured sparring with Dwarven Forges nylon wasters? ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IWexmx_nLpM#t=298s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IWexmx_nLpM#t=298s)
Go to 4:30.
"Me vs Michael-Forrest M. doing HEMA Longsword.
I was practicing my 'No Mind' technique. At he end of the video my last glancing shot broke his finger badly due to him not wearing adequate/no hand protection.
This may have been the last time we sparred and one of the last Mike sparred."
Edit: On Wednesdays I go do some Kedo/Kenjitsu sparring with a local TKD Bu-Kwa-Jang-Nim using little to no protection and Shinai. Works great until you do things like throw a shot in demonstration that very easily goes from a tap to a broken rib, that happened last night.
But we are scheduled for another bout next week. So he must be OK.
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We've migrated away from wooden wasters, and in our group aluminum never caught on. The aluminum doesn't really afford you anything over steel except maybe being cheaper (depending on who makes it). The aluminum blades have to be made fairly thick to get the right weight, which is fine in the sense that you want wide edges to be safe. However, it doesn't have the sort of flex that steel does, so they have no give at all. So you might as well use steel.
As you know Sir Edward we use the aluminum blades almost exclusively at MASHS, some of us are using steel more often but with one of our assistant instructors capable of producing them @ $100 they are a very economical alternative for newer students. I personally enjoy using both but the aluminum blades bruise me up the most. I do prefer an aluminum blade for some techniques that my Meyer is sometimes just to flexible to pull off well which is ironically the most condemning argument verses aluminum blades, they deny the true characteristics and feel of steel. ;)
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Yep, that's true, the rigidity helps in the bind. But sharps have a decent amount of flex, particularly historical ones. :)
Of course there's no such thing as a perfect simulator, but steel will always give you the most realistic experience.