ModernChivalry.org
Miscellaneous => The Sallyport => Topic started by: Thorsteinn on 2012-02-09, 21:17:08
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Sometimes dealing with the HEMA Alliance is painful & frustrating. Someone ask's a general fighting question, you suggest a non-HEMA or <GASP!> SCA-related source and they jump down your throat.
Sometimes it's enough to make me want to challenge the whole lot of them to a single combat, anything-goes, submission fight.
Better now.
-Ivan
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So, now that you feel better...can you give us a little background as to what happened? What was the question, and the answer you gave?
I think that every martial org is going to have their elitists who think what they practice is the epitome of whatever art is the topic at hand...you just smile and nod, and move on to someone with just a wee bit more of a basis in reality (and gentility) than THAT guy. Gotta love it, though.
I have been made to understand that there is a dissonance between HEMA and SCA...am I correct in my assumption that HEMA does not consider the SCA to be an historically-based style of medieval combat? I wouldn't either...but that doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned from them.
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Well, I don't mean to be elitist here, but SCA simply ISN'T a period style of combat.
There is a good bit to be taken away from fighting SCA, but the fact that it discounts armour, doen't allow for attacks to the shins, doesn't take into account edge alignment and it's overdependence on wrap shots or use of SCA tailored gaurds would make it less realistic IMO than WMA.
However, there is still probably much that it does teach one, and I would put my eggs in the SCA basket before any other when looking for a battle-ready group due to it's practice of large scale battles, something that other groups simply don't do.
I myself do WMA, and plan to do SCA someday.
And please do tell what happened. I deal with this BS in Eastern martial arts all the time :P
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Here is the thread: http://hemaalliance.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1795 (http://hemaalliance.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1795)
I was jumped on for suggesting that 'The Armoured Rose" by Tobi Beck (SCA Fighter and Army MP) or Gemini Asonte might have something good to say on the subject of tiny women being run over by large men in the fighting ring.
I was asked by the moderators to not mention the SCA lest it was more relevant than HEMA and given that there are no HEMA books for women on fighting I felt that I was right on target (notice that they never bitch when I mention SCA armour experience when talking of HEMA level body protection).
And yes there are some HEMA folks who feel that they have nothing to learn from the SCA. My old HEMA instructor & my old roommate felt the same thing as the two guys in the group never brought their A game to any match with the rest of the class. The reasons were two fold: #1) We tend to hit hard in our A games, #2) the rest of the academy was not up to what we would bring and would get themselves hurt.
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As I have never experienced a true large-scale medieval battle firsthand (none of us born within the last three centuries can lay claim to that) I couldn't actually say what it was like on the field, but I have come to think that style may have played a part in the initial forays but once the battle was fully underway, it was an 'anything that takes your opponent down' type of mentality. Who is to say that wrap shots weren't in some way performed? Or that in the heat of battle, when your adrenal glands are secreting so much of the hormone you could lift a fully armored and barded warhorse barehanded, armor might actually fail on the first blow, especially if it was cheap and/or poorly made?
I think there are definite lessons to pick up with regard to the grand melee that the SCA is known for...
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Ivan, where does it say that you may not bring up the SCA in topic? I thought his response to be somewhat 'huffy'...but I was also confused by your second post. What is Rule #1 of the Fighting Ring?
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I did once show both my old roommate & my old instructor my A game. They both whined and blamed their loss on other reasons than I was better than them.
This also happened to Gemini Asonte when he went to compete against the Western Circle of Swordsmen and defeated the entire school at least once, and the head if the school in that mans chosen form 10 out of 10 passes. The man apparently made excuses towards Gemini about why Gemini beat him. At CombatCon Gemini won one tourney there against other WMA/HEMA folks. This win was barely acknowledged by anyone who felt the SCA deficient.
@Sir William: Rule#1 of the Fighting Ring is "Don't be a Dick".
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Ha! And I was going to say that mod seemed like he was being a dick, but every board's got at least one, right?
Of us all on here, I'm probably the one who is closest to being such...at least, to hear my wife tell it. Well, no, she says I'm an asshole...which I think is worse AND better. lol
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I think the best lesson to be had from SCA simulated combat that translates to other styles of simulated combat is the ability to deal with getting hit and not get flustered. Also, quick decision making while being struck is not something you can train for without actually doing it. These skills translate to ANY martial activity. The fighter's mindset is something that can indeed be learned through training for SCA heavy, and will pay off in HEMA. A person who's never been hit before will have a steep learning curve when picking up a martial sport for the first time. An SCA veteran already has that advantage when transitioning to WMA/HEMA, but beyond that, I cannot say the SCA has much historical validity when it comes to actual technique in battle or single combat because it's simply not based on historical treatise and manuals.
Who is to say that wrap shots weren't in some way performed?
While it's true we cannot actually rule things like this out, the mere fact that techniques like this are not described anywhere in the treatises on historical warfare and judicial combat are pretty good indicators. We can suppose a lot of things, but without evidence we can't claim it's a valid historical technique. /$0.02
It's not a shot at the SCA to say that their sport is not historical in technique. The HEMA / WMA community takes it's historical sourcing very seriously and I think that's why the SCA thing is a sore topic for a lot of them, because the SCA acknowledges that they 'bend' the rules on history a bit to enjoy their game more, which is perfectly fine, but the HEMA / WMA community chooses to strictly adhere to historical technique, and can't be blamed for following through on this.
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but the HEMA / WMA community chooses to strictly adhere to historical technique, and can't be blamed for following through on this.
On this I throw the flag as I hardly ever see them doing, or talking of doing, any of the historic formats that we have clear evidence of like fights at the barrier, holmganga, pancration, mixed weapons, and unarmed combat. Right now all I see in the American HEMA is a bunch of people arguing over how to do a simulated unarmoured duel with matched longsword simulators and no Hand-to-Hand moves.
Many of the fights I have seen have bad form and bad follow through. Both Battle of the Nations and the Laurin Tourney are better than the HEMA Alliance for this right now.
Frankly the HEMA community needs to be able to say what it is, and not what it is not before it can be taken seriously. Right now it's arrogance does not match its renown or prowess.
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but the HEMA / WMA community chooses to strictly adhere to historical technique, and can't be blamed for following through on this.
On this I throw the flag as I hardly ever see them doing, or talking of doing, any of the historic formats that we have clear evidence of like fights at the barrier, holmganga, pancration, mixed weapons, and unarmed combat. Right now all I see in the American HEMA is a bunch of people arguing over how to do a simulated unarmoured duel with matched longsword simulators and no Hand-to-Hand moves.
Many of the fights I have seen have bad form and bad follow through. Both Battle of the Nations and the Laurin Tourney are better than the HEMA Alliance for this right now.
Frankly the HEMA community needs to be able to say what it is, and not what it is not before it can be taken seriously. Right now it's arrogance does not match its renown or prowess.
What specific organizations are you looking at? The HEMA alliance is made up of many many HEMA organizations and specific schools. Your accusation can be said of any large-scale loosely affiliated group of individual organizations, which is what the HEMA alliance really is. The AEMMA guys in Toronto are pretty legit when it comes to historical accuracy from what I've seen. ARMA (/dodge thrown pies) is also pretty legit when it comes to adherence to historical technique.
Judging HEMA and WMA from the HEMA alliance forums is like judging the SCA as a whole from the AA (which yes, although is not supposed to be an SCA specific site, let's face reality here for a second). I will agree with you whole-heartedly though that the HEMA Alliance really has no sense of itself and is not as coherent an organization as it could be.
My first impression of the SCA was going to my local shire's fighter practice. This is going to sound bad, but it was a group of out of shape gentlemen that were completely winded and exhausted after a couple swings of a stick, with only a small group of people wearing anything remotely resembling an attempt at historically accurate armor or kit. Before I get the whole 'it's very exhausting', I've done my fair share of full contact martial arts and good ol' boxing, and I know what full out physical exertion over a long period of time feels like while getting kicked or punched in the face, and these guys were not in any shape to be doing a martial activity. I cannot judge the whole SCA based on this experience and decided to do a lot of research on my own. I came to appreciate what the SCA does, and in the end wished I had a more serious group of SCA here locally so I could play too.
HEMA is the same way, there are schools and study groups that would rather sit around and debate and act all elitist and then would get soundly trounced by anyone who took the sport seriously. There are other schools who strictly try to recreate what techniques would have been used in historical times but completely miss the point of a martial activity and leave out what I consider vital to any martial art, and that is strength, fighting intent, and real athleticism. Then there are schools that really get it, and train at speed, with intent, respect for what this is (a LETHAL sport), and it's practitioners are athletes with a warrior's mindset. The HEMA alliance is made up of a shotgun smattering of all this and everything in between. I just wish it was easy to find a school that meets your expectations and level of open-mindedness.
The awesome thing about the SCA is it has folks that get it! Like Sir Gemini for example, that man is an athlete with a warrior's mindset, and I think his attitude and mindset are sorely needed in a lot of HEMA organizations. Shame on the elitists in the alliance for not recognizing his potential contributions in this aspect.
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Who is to say that wrap shots weren't in some way performed?
While it's true we cannot actually rule things like this out, the mere fact that techniques like this are not described anywhere in the treatises on historical warfare and judicial combat are pretty good indicators. We can suppose a lot of things, but without evidence we can't claim it's a valid historical technique. /$0.02
Probably the closest thing in the manuscripts would be the various Sturtzhau plays. The thing is, there's some variety and/or disagreement on what a perfect sturtzhau really is. More often than not, I think it's interpreted as a sort of plunging strike. The sword hand turns over, but the sword still leads with the point, rather than being an inverted cut, though it can still result in a back-edge cut.
Anyway, just an extra thought on the subject.
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Sir Ian I cannot find any meaningful disagreement for anything in your last post there. You humble me.
I too seek to raise up what the SCA does in it's martial activities and I plan to make it happen by speaking my mind & fighting like I would have us Heavy's fight. I also am on the Cynaguan Guard so I have an impetus to look my best. Prince Richard is going to stop his "Chateau de Camville Schola Weekend's" in Placerville, CA while on the throne but they are his effort to bring up the awesomeness of what we are doing.
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Sir Ian I cannot find any meaningful disagreement for anything in your last post there. You humble me.
I too seek to raise up what the SCA does in it's martial activities and I plan to make it happen by speaking my mind & fighting like I would have us Heavy's fight. I also am on the Cynaguan Guard so I have an impetus to look my best. Prince Richard is going to stop his "Chateau de Camville Schola Weekend's" in Placerville, CA while on the throne but they are his effort to bring up the awesomeness of what we are doing.
I think in a very roundabout way we wound up on the same page there. :)
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Yeah, you have the gems and the lemons in both sides. You have the HEMA unskilled elitists, and the SCA picklebarrel-clad couch potatoes. Then you have the John Clements and the Bill Grandys, and the Sir Geminis and the (insert favorite SCA fighter here)s.
You see something similar to a wrap shot in the I:33 manual. Although all of my expeience in combat facimilies indicates that it's to be seldom thrown, as it makes the arm a wondeful target.
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My only point was, we really don't know how it went down. Sure, we have treatises and manuals, but to me they are 'stylized' versions of what actually goes into said art- I think the fechtbuchs we have access to are great for learning the techniques- but you can learn forms all day and still not be 'ready' for an encounter.
Some excellent points have been made during this discussion and no one's flying off the handle or getting overly assertive because they feel their particular choice was slighted...man I love that.
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Sir William, there's a lot of truth to what you said.
Several of the manuscripts describe the techniques not as "this is the only way you must do things", but rather "here are some things you can do that will work". They're meant to serve as examples, and through them you can learn to fight.
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That's how I look at it...great building blocks but I find that the true masters of their craft got that way not by necessarily adhering to strict tenets (other than don't be the one getting killed) but by applying what they've learned with what they've encountered in real situations and incorporating all of that as part of their repertoire.
I liken it to the sport of boxing...most all boxers, amateur and professional are taught the same principles, but as we all know, they all experience differing degrees of success based on natural talent, aptitude, skills/athleticism as well as training. The training is essential to learning the basics, but it is up to the individual fighter to incorporate them and build upon what they've learned. There used to a term that got bandied about quite a bit in the late 90s early 00s - 'continuous improvement process' - a somewhat spurious notion in the business world, but certainly applicable here.
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In SCA combat to wrap-shot someone has little fear; you can almost bind your opponent's shield/weapon simply by proximity, and the primary thing you leave yourself open to as a counter is them throwing a wrap at you, and little else. Historically, it would probably turn to ringen/wrestling/throw (as most fechtbuchs show); in SCA context, you can't be thrown, you can't grab weapons/arms... it's an inherent "safety net" to close in and wrap.
The primary "problem" with wrap shots is that while it makes a great sound with rattan for a "kill", it seems a less efficient idea with a real sword. The generation of force on a wrap shot is considerably less than a "well planted, well struck" blow like a forward-stepping zornhau. More (proper) power, bigger wound, faster kill(s). The up side is many people seem to have worn less armor on their back/rear, so getting a good strike with less or no armor is less important since there could be less "resistance" to getting at flesh. However, you'd have to be *quick* at getting in to strike and kill - quick enough that your opponent doesn't grapple you or bind your weapon.
SCA has some similarity to late-period tournaments where they used wooden clubs instead of swords, and somewhat similar to the "counted blows" competitions. It has it's ties to being historically based, and I've found it to be, in general, pretty good about not claiming it's 100% historical. I'd have no problem with SCA publications being used as a supporting source for the sake of discussion, as long as it wasn't in an attempt to prove that "historically they did this, because the SCA does, and the SCA is a historical society, so....".
I'm surprised (or maybe not) to hear that a moderator was the one who said that. You have to be careful in other people's sandboxes, sometimes they get snippy and seem to have no "people skills". I had a post deleted and a warning issued by a moderator on another forum because I posted that Medieval Fight Book (history channel show) was available on YouTube for people who didn't or couldn't see it. I didn't even post a link to it. First time I ever had any communication with the moderators.
"It's copyrighted material. Distributing copyrighted material in any manner is illegal. I'm not here to teach you copyright laws, however, and so trust that you will look elsewhere for information if you are interested in the subject."
What really pissed me off even more was that other people posted about Youtube after my post was pulled, and nothing happened to their posts. I was "special". I rarely go there any more, but I rarely posted there and there wasn't much interesting anyway save for a few random threads ... so no loss for me. :)
Sounds like you might want to just ignore that forum, if that's an option?
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Right now all I see in the American HEMA is a bunch of people arguing over how to do a simulated unarmoured duel with matched longsword simulators and no Hand-to-Hand moves.
I can't attest to any other WMA events as the only one I attended was the various Chivalric Weekend events held northeast of me and this certainly wasn't the case at that particular series of events. The last year it was held there were something like 15-20 armoured challange bouts, one instructor got his ankle broken practicing Ott's wrestling and there were classes on both armoured and un armoured combat and a variety of weapons and people bouting all over the place when not taking classes as well as an archery tournament. Things must be very different at other WMA gatherings.
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Right now all I see in the American HEMA is a bunch of people arguing over how to do a simulated unarmoured duel with matched longsword simulators and no Hand-to-Hand moves.
I can't attest to any other WMA events as the only one I attended was the various Chivalric Weekend events held northeast of me and this certainly wasn't the case at that particular series of events. The last year it was held there were something like 15-20 armoured challange bouts, one instructor got his ankle broken practicing Ott's wrestling and there were classes on both armoured and un armoured combat and a variety of weapons and people bouting all over the place when not taking classes as well as an archery tournament. Things must be very different at other WMA gatherings.
WMAW is a lot like that as well. Classes cover a wide range of disciplines, even ranging into knife throwing, pugilism, and bartitsu. This past WMAW, there was a harnessfechten (armored fighting) class, and an armored deed of arms based around the manuscripts. It involved grappling, half-swording, thrusting to the gaps, and other things you'd expect from historical armored combat. But I think most importantly, the event was full of camaraderie and mutual respect.
In our classes at VAF, we frequently use unmatched weapons, except when we're drilling or bouting with specific techniques that we're focusing on.
It's easy to make generalizations about the groups you're not hanging out with. :)
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WMAW is a lot like that as well. Classes cover a wide range of disciplines, even ranging into knife throwing, pugilism, and bartitsu. This past WMAW, there was a harnessfechten (armored fighting) class, and an armored deed of arms based around the manuscripts. It involved grappling, half-swording, thrusting to the gaps, and other things you'd expect from historical armored combat. But I think most importantly, the event was full of camaraderie and mutual respect.
In our classes at VAF, we frequently use unmatched weapons, except when we're drilling or bouting with specific techniques that we're focusing on.
It's easy to make generalizations about the groups you're not hanging out with. :)
Much like at my WMA group MASHS when we have our ‘Free Play’ Sundays, we’ll try all kinds of different variations of weapon matchups with our duels. Even during our regular classes if we don’t have any novice students the intermediate and advanced students will just have an extended session of duels, or maybe a bear pit. At any of our duels grappling is definitely on the table and with some of the MASHS members it is a foregone conclusion they will try to grapple with you. Although we learn and drill IAW the Lichtenauer traditions we are not overly into the academics but learn it to be better and more effective swordsmen/swordswomen. :)
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That sounds like my kind of group, Sir Brian. Nothing wrong with academics, but the applied sciences were always more my thing. ;)
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I really think you would enjoy our group Sir William and our Sunday session in Annapolis is reasonably close to your area.
Google maps shows its approximately 30 minutes away.
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Bowie,+MD&daddr=273+Hilltop+Lane,+Annapolis,+MD&hl=en&ll=38.980229,-76.645432&spn=0.298913,0.490952&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=38.911557,62.841797&geocode=FTkyUwIdgHFs-ylJ8QbCjeq3iTFVbq5KSSK3yg%3BFamEUgIdy59w-ykJbQWcifa3iTGi7qjqdl_D1g&mra=ls&t=m&z=11 (http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Bowie,+MD&daddr=273+Hilltop+Lane,+Annapolis,+MD&hl=en&ll=38.980229,-76.645432&spn=0.298913,0.490952&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=38.911557,62.841797&geocode=FTkyUwIdgHFs-ylJ8QbCjeq3iTFVbq5KSSK3yg%3BFamEUgIdy59w-ykJbQWcifa3iTGi7qjqdl_D1g&mra=ls&t=m&z=11)
This past Sunday one of our advanced students Michael Fuchs told me and another intermediate student about a drill he watched on youtube from a WMA group in Spain where they were dueling solely from the bind and making various attempts to wind against their opponent. It turned out to be a really interesting drill and a good warm up. We then explored with some alternative plays against your opponent after you initially come to the bind and whether they were hard or soft in the bind, sort of a Fühlen drill, then we eventually worked that into doing an Ausreissen which was really cool. 8)
Ausreissen = The closest translation I could find is 'SHOVE'; (Das Bill could probably tell us what plate from the historical texts it is from. ;) )
Essentially it is when both combatants are in vom tag and each cuts with a zornhau and comes to the bind,
You lift your hilt up while dropping the point and simultaneously take another slope pace while forcefully ‘shoving’ your opponent’s blade away from you and out of harm’s way. You will end up well within grappling range since your lead leg will be directly behind the knee of their lead leg and your pommel will already be in line for a pommel strike. There is also the high probability that you will be able to clip your opponent with your left elbow as you ‘shove’ their blade away. Michael Fuchs performed it flawlessly several times against me and the other student. I often shove too hard to have a clean pommel strike but I would have my blade free for a one handed hack to the back of my opponent’s head (simulated hack of course! ;) )
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Sir Brian, no worries...you'll be seeing me at MASHS sometime this year. My introductory course starts in March; I want to get that under my belt before I start learning anything else. :)
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Sir Brian, no worries...you'll be seeing me at MASHS sometime this year. My introductory course starts in March; I want to get that under my belt before I start learning anything else. :)
Awesome. Don't let them beat you up too much before you start hitting back. Heh :)
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Sir Brian, no worries...you'll be seeing me at MASHS sometime this year. My introductory course starts in March; I want to get that under my belt before I start learning anything else. :)
Excellent! Oh and what introductory course is are you taking?
Awesome. Don't let them beat you up too much before you start hitting back. Heh :)
Hey I promise we'll make sure he has a good working knowledge of the basics before we toss him into the ring...that and maybe a good chest protector! ;)
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I'm taking Introduction to Historical Sword at VARF...I do not know if you recall, but my lovely wife prepaid the class as a birthday gift! I was going to take the January class, but my right hand and wrist have been somewhat lacking in strength and mobility (I really torqued my wrist during our day of play after Sir James' and Sir Nathan's knightings). Now, I'm pretty much ready to go! I'm eagerly looking forward to it, and to hanging out with you MASHS guys. I've been a loner for far too long, it'll be good to be among likeminded men.
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I assume you mean VAF, not VARF. :)
Do you know who your instructor will be?
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I'm taking Introduction to Historical Sword at VARF...I do not know if you recall, but my lovely wife prepaid the class as a birthday gift! I was going to take the January class, but my right hand and wrist have been somewhat lacking in strength and mobility (I really torqued my wrist during our day of play after Sir James' and Sir Nathan's knightings). Now, I'm pretty much ready to go! I'm eagerly looking forward to it, and to hanging out with you MASHS guys. I've been a loner for far too long, it'll be good to be among likeminded men.
Oh yes that’s right! Very good! The technique of those VAF folks is absolutely IMMPECCABLE.
(those other VARF guys are just a little scary!) ;)
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I meant VAF, thank you Sirs Edward and Brian. I do not know who my instructor is yet...but am looking forward to the class.
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I'd take a page from Sir Wolf's book and say "Pictures!!", but they have a no-photo policy at VAF (this can be bent for some occasions, but is mostly a "get permission from everyone involved first" sort of thing).
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I'll do what I can but I'm usually not one for having a go at the rules from the outset. Give me some time...lol
I'm kidding, in case Bill happens to see this.
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Fought for the first time since August at the Golden Rivers Championship on Saturday. I was on the field from the first fights to the last. Wow I'm sore.
Also...I know this is old soup (and I have no animisity in this bit though it may seem so, I just want to point out some things I didn't before) but I must put this out there regarding SCA wrap shots: They have disabled legs through steel. I, myself, have been browned out by them through a 12 ga helm. What we call the Grasscutter Strike is in the manuals and uses wrap body mechanics.
God's help you if your opponent is using a mace and does that blow. I don't have to chop off a limb to disable it. I don't have to cut through your body through to stop you if I damage any of the vulnerable things on the back of your legs, butt, or neck.
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My thing with the wrap shot is the vulnerability of the arm when thrown at the longer measures that WMA combat takes place.
But it is rather suited for a mace. I'm not going to argue it's existence in period, or that it shouldn't be used, or anything ridiculous, it's just simply not the Bread and butter in WMA that it is in the SCA.
Good fight, sounds like fun :)
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True.
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Also...I know this is old soup (and I have no animisity in this bit though it may seem so, I just want to point out some things I didn't before) but I must put this out there regarding SCA wrap shots: They have disabled legs through steel. I, myself, have been browned out by them through a 12 ga helm. What we call the Grasscutter Strike is in the manuals and uses wrap body mechanics.
I've never had anybody really explain this to my satisfaction and i've done business with everything from WMA to LH to SCA to Rennies. In the larger scheme of things why does anyone care? I thought it was supposed to be about having fun and i've seen folks on all sides of the spectrum get all sorts of worked up over whos legit, what style is the real deal ect, isn't it supposed to about having a good time? The minute you start the " my dojo is better than your dojo " you've stopped having fun and your hobby just became work so at least to my mind, whats the point then, your not having fun? I don't see stamp collectors duking it out verbally with each other over who's mojo is better, I can't recall the last time I saw two groups of bird watches assaulting each other out in the woods over who's doing it better. I've never understood how contentious is a part of fun. If some one wants to get in a circle with thier friends with boards to thier noses and sticks over thier heads, god bless and enjoy, if some one wants to bring a ton of fantasy leather armour and what amounts to a couch cushion with straps on it and call it a shield at the larp event have a blast, if some one wants to slap on elf/Spock ears with their 16th century lady in waiting dress and put sparklies on thier face at the renfaire, have at it.
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I agree that all groups are entitled to their fun and can pretty much do what they want. The difference is, people at LARP events with boffer swords or people wearing elf ears and glitter don't try to claim historical accuracy. People get their panties in a bunch over this particular issue mostly because WMA is trying to reproduce as close as possible a historically accurate use of whatever their weapon of choice is. The SCA heavy list is not intended to be a historically accurate fighting sport, it's intended to be fun, much as you described earlier. The WMA folks get upset when the SCA crowd tries to take their sport and claim it as historically accurate, much as the LH follks would be upset if the elf ears and glitter crowd tried to point out what they were doing as historically accurate in a living history context.
I'm not picking sides here, I'm just trying to explain why it's a touchy subject for a lot of WMA/HEMA groups. They want their fun to be constrained by a specific ruleset, in this case, historical accuracy. So if a member of another group, in this case SCA comes along and tries to bring valid techniques that don't apply within their ruleset, they can get upset.
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ya as much as anyone wants to put it as far as the sca, living history, fantasy etc, we're all LARPS. i dont care what people say it's true. we all play a game and dress up. whether it's to honor vets, get rid of reality or what have you. just different names and different faces.
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I wholeheartedly agree with Allan’s and Sir Wolf's perspectives. Whatever gives you the most sense of achievement and happiness than the more power to you! :)
For me, I must confess of a few things. Firstly I am not as dedicated an academic as perhaps I should be for WMA. I like to study the forms and principles and then see how to incorporate them into my developing fighting style. It has been a few decades since I’ve competed on a sport or recreational level and I’ve found in the past fifteen months that the studying of WMA has rekindled that old love of ‘safe’ combat. It lacks the intense and almost euphoric adrenaline rush of genuine life and death struggle (in my case bar fights) but then again I didn’t really enjoy experiencing that when I was half the age I am now so essentially I get to enjoy the thrill of a martial art without the danger of death or dismemberment. For me, I really think being hit with anything less than something that has the potential of breaking bones would take away from that battle sense and would therefore lead me more to discouragement than to development. :-\
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Yep, very good perspectives here.
Admittedly, I'm not a very good academic when it comes to these things either. I'm approaching it from two angles- I want to get out there and have fun, and I want to have practical knowledge that enhances my appreciation for the historical toys I collect. Whether I'm doing it exactly as described in the manual is secondary, as long as I get an understanding of what I'm doing and how it fits into the historical context.
I understand why people are very protective of their approaches. But personally I'm not into the whole "walled garden" thing, and am happy to see a lot of different groups have their own unique emphasis.
Technically we're all on the same side, since we're all taking the parts of history we like and trying to revive them. It's just that some folks are trying to be as accurate as they can in every possible way, and others are taking the bits they like and discarding the rest. There's nothing wrong with this, and in fact I think it provides a wider range of options for people to find the level of involvement that suits them.
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ya as much as anyone wants to put it as far as the sca, living history, fantasy etc, we're all LARPS. i dont care what people say it's true. we all play a game and dress up. whether it's to honor vets, get rid of reality or what have you. just different names and different faces.
I guess this is where the big difference lies between all the groups you listed and HEMA/WMA. It's first and foremost a martial art. It encourages no role play, no personas, and many schools don't require any period clothing unless used for purely functional purposes. That's why they can get upset when someone comes along and suggests to them how to improve upon their martial art when that person is coming from a role-play perspective.
The line is skewed only because we view WMA/HEMA in the same light as the other mentioned groups because they use swords and other medieval weapons. Do you look at Kung Fu or Karate schools as LARPs just because they wear traditional garb? No... because they are martial arts schools, teaching a combat sport. So it is with HEMA/WMA school. They really shouldn't be lumped in with Living History, SCA, Boffer LARPs etc, because the aim is to teach a combat sport, not role play or be a persona etc... It gets blurry here because the SCA has a sporting aspect within an overall role-playing community.
But you have to be respectful of the WMA crowd's perspective here. the analogy would be if a Kendo school was approached by a group of people who re-enact Samurai era history and suggested technique to the Kendo guys. I think we can see here, that it simply doesn't make sense, and the Kendo school might even be dismissive of what the re-enactors are trying go say. So it is with the WMA community and the SCA. Let people have their fun, but don't be surprised if one group doesn't want to listen to the other. The point is WMA, although historical in context, is a martial art, not a LARP, and I think that's the point that people are overlooking when it comes to this particular topic.
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Thank you Ian, truly you are among the most eloquent of the Brethren here.
I aim to at least try all of it. I do WMA because I collect swords, and I want to learn how to use them. To really make good on my persuit, because my aim in all this is to be a modern-day knight. As I wear armour to materialize what I hope I show through my person, I learn WMA to flesh out what I've already materialized through the pysical object of the sword. One step closer to being (as close as possible) a real knight.
I want to try SCA, to give experience to my understanding of group combat and strategy. No other place you can have battles in the thousands with medieval weapons anymore.
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We can always trust Ian to cut to the truth with laser accuracy. Awesome. :)
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Truly I envy your youthful enthusiasm Sir Nathan and it certainly serves you well for I have never met a knight as young as you with such boldness tempered with wisdom beyond your years. I do not hold such lofty ambitions as you to try everything as I squandered the best years of my body on more baser pursuits which left me some vague and scattered memories along with a far less resilient physique. :-\
The differences between SCA, WMA/HEMA, LARP or REENACTMENT groups really are beyond my consideration as I simply do not have the available active lifespan left to 'sample' them all. Suffice to say I've rediscovered that I enjoy hitting people again and the best part is that it is manageably safe to do so with the WMA group I train with. ;)
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okok i think i missed that part about the wma. my bad. i view it the same as a regular school of fighting, why would anyone else not? hehe
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Very well said, Ian. Allan, I agree, when the fun is gone, the point of it all is gone. I've almost all but abandoned my previous "hobby" because the fun died years ago and it became little more than a troublesome headache that I came to truly distaste.
I want to get out there and have fun, and I want to have practical knowledge that enhances my appreciation for the historical toys I collect.
This is the "heart" of it all for me. I don't want to win. I don't want to lose. I want to have fun, learn things, and share knowledge and enthusiasm with those who will listen. :)
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All,
I have found Sir Edwards long lost cousin...
My friend, Viscount Sir Thor Stagge of the West Kingdom. Yes his glasses have the Norwegian flag on them and he has a smurf on his tabbard. I guess if your a big enough badass no one can tell you boo yes? ;D
(http://history.westkingdom.org/Year42/Photos/OC73.jpg)
http://history.westkingdom.org/Year42/Photos/OC73.htm (http://history.westkingdom.org/Year42/Photos/OC73.htm)
Just needed to remind everyone that I find great offence when folks get too damned nose-in-the-air, not that I think I'm right and they're wrong, just that their approach irks me. One of our leaders on this forum's profile pic has him rocking maille, a sword, and sunglasses and that is cool.
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Yeah, it's a bit of a trademark for me to be wearing shades with my armor. It's mostly because the pictures I get are usually taken at the renfaire, where I'm opting to wear the sunglasses to be comfortable, and am just sucking up the anachronism. But I've turned it into a bit of a joke, that they're part of the kit. :)
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If it isn't fun, it probably won't be worth doing in the long run. For me, getting to study and learn something that I've been fascinated by pretty much my entire life, as far back as I can remember, is as good as it gets. That I have met likeminded individuals is really the icing on an already great cake!