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Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2010-11-05, 14:53:27
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I guess it's time for the next virtue discussion. Let's see what we have to say about Valor.
Clearly knights were always expected to be courageous. They needed to be able to charge into combat and show valor. There are many historical accounts of knights being almost uncontrollable on the battlefield, charging straight in and trying to achieve personal glory and show off their valor.
But whether we're speaking of the historical context or talking about our modern lives, I see it as more than simply being fearless. No, I think fear is a useful tool for keeping us safe from harm. Rather, Valor must also include an ability to face your fears, to do what is right despite them.
How do you think it fits into the modern day? What are some historical examples of extreme valor?
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I think valor is a combination of courage and common sense...for instance, the Charge of the Light Brigade was courageous, and incredibly stupid- I would not categorize what they did as valorous, although the argument could be made that it was- a direct result of their actions was that the British Cavalry received a boost in respect amongst its peers so you could argue that in the end it was their valor that allowed their compatriots to enjoy a higher standing in the world.
Valor and heroism go hand in hand, as far as I'm concerned...heroism tempered with intelligence. A man of great valor is not one who leads from behind- a man willing to send his knights into battle better be ready to lead them if he wishes to be known as a knight of great courage and valor. I think a man who thinks of his men and doesn't send them needlessly to their undoing shows valor- and courage, especially if his actions are viewed as unimpressive or cowardly...you've heard the old adage, wisdom being the better part of valor. It rings true, then as it does now.
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valor i think is a good word for courage. you either have it or you don't. some people show it all the time in the face of danger and others show it in the oddist ways or when you least expect it
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I call that the 'rise of the hero' - people who seemingly would never be the one to enter the breach just jump in feet first w/no regard to their safety. A case of the common man rising above his alloted station and doing something memorable- not the reason why he does it, but it is what happens nonetheless. You almost never hear of someone famous doing something like that- brings to mind an incident involving Kiefer Sutherland (star of 24) where he saw what he thought was a mugging in progress and went to intervene; but that's the exception I believe. I think Jonny Depp did that once too, when someone tried to mug his friend.
By and large, it is what many consider the 'small man', not in stature, just someone who isn't lookin for press or trying to be something other than what he is, he just does it. Like Wolf said, you either have it or you don't- and I bet there are a lot of people who have it and don't realize it.
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That's an interesting case too-- intervening on someone's behalf when they're in danger. Clearly it is very knightly to do so, but it's also discouraged by modern society. There's a trend towards only letting the authorities deal with dangerous matters, that you almost have a civic duty to NOT intervene and place yourself in danger. In fact, local laws are usually written that way, particularly pertaining to the use of lethal force. If you kill the bad guy and save the victim by doing so, but you put yourself in danger by intervening, you're in the wrong legally, in most places.
Perhaps it's time for good people and common sense to step up and take back our culture's sense of morality. :)
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Let's not start a discussion on political correctness, which I feel goes hand in hand with this whole 'be innocent sheep bystanders while your fellow man is robbed, beaten and killed'...it only cultivates the rampant fear and paranoia that a lot of society seems to be feeding into.
At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, the media outlets seem to be in on it- all they report on are crime statistics in urban areas, nevermind that these very same urban areas tend to be more or less safe enough to move through but to hear them tell it, its Dodge City. People are people, it takes all kinds to make up this society we live in- and the predators mark their prey well. In this day and age, that includes most everyone, except for the few who have that look or are visibly armed.
I suppose I should've stayed back and let the fire and EMS personnel to put out that fire in my old apartment complex; if I had though, I fear more than a few children would never have made it out- especially given the ridiculously long response time (the firehouse was right across the damn street). I didn't put out the fire, I helped get those kids out- do you know their idiot parents had sent them down to another apartment to get bowls and pots full of water to try and put the fire out? (turns out the parents were drug dealers more concerned with their stash than the well being of their kids)
I didn't think it through...if I had, I probably would've rationalized NOT getting involved; if that makes me a bad person, to hell with whomever thinks so. I'm no gilded lily, and I'm unafraid when it comes to giving succour to those who need it, but some would call that crazy.
It is dangerous to step outside of your door, and yet every day we do it. You can spend your entire life guarding against perceived slights, injury or evil...or you can live it, and deal with those issues as they come.
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It is dangerous to step outside of your door, and yet every day we do it. You can spend your entire life guarding against perceived slights, injury or evil...or you can live it, and deal with those issues as they come.
Well put Paladin! I think I’ll use this as a lead into my contribution to this discussion. ;)
IMO valor is demonstrated by a terminally ill child who stoically tries to live every moment of their short lives to the utmost. Valor is the single mother who must work two or more jobs to provide for her child/children. Valor isn’t the absence of fear for your own life or well being but instead is the impetus that will compel you to continuously do what is right and needed at the precise moment it needs to be done.
Consider how your young princess handled going to school for the very first time Sir Wolf. Did she cry and resist or was she excited and anxious? Or was she shy and timid? ~ Regardless of how she handled one of the earliest defining moments in her young life, she handled it. (At least I assume she did and isn’t home schooled which would totally toss this line of thought into a midden heap!) ;)
Another fine example we get to see firsthand is at the renfaire when all those young kids demonstrate their valor by being willing to approach such large and menacingly looking knights. Many of the youngsters are overcome by their fears and their valor escapes them. :(
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I think it is important to separate valor from undirected/blind action, especially in the modern age. Take our previous posts about helping our fellow citizens when trouble arises. Intervening when someone is being beaten/attacked/raped/what-have-you is without a doubt the correct thing to do (laws be damned), but trying to be a hero during a gas station robbery is just plain stupid! The "victim" in this situation is a company with insurance and the means of absorbing the loss of the till. A knight would not risk the lives of other bystanders should things start to go south. Wisdom is the better part of valor. Other than that, there really is nothing I can add to what you other gentlemen have already said.
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true true :D
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Very good point Red Knight! Another example would be the French Knights at Crecy. Their valor was eclipsed by their vanity which proved their undoing. Yet we can consider another historic example to be Pickett's charge. No doubt that every last one of those men exhibited extreme valor but it was all for naught because of General Lee's vanity, which adds a bit of reinforcement to the old adage of pride comes before the fall.
;)
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I guess we could say valor mixed with vanity is a recipe for folly. Valor as an instrument of honor, on the other hand, is chivalric.
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Intervening when someone is being beaten/attacked/raped/what-have-you is without a doubt the correct thing to do (laws be damned), but trying to be a hero during a gas station robbery is just plain stupid! The "victim" in this situation is a company with insurance and the means of absorbing the loss of the till. A knight would not risk the lives of other bystanders should things start to go south.
What if the person is being robbed at gunpoint and threatened? Or hostages? At that point, while it's the company being robbed, there is a very grave potential for loss of life as well.
I saw this video years ago, and it's still epic to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cn7jqo4kIk - I won't spoil what happens, but it's a purse snatcher in an elevator. Highly doubt that would ever happen in America; but I think we'd be a better place if it did.
There was news a little while back about a 20 year old student in Maryland who had some things stolen from his house while he was out (laptop, game consoles). That same night, around midnight, he heard noises in his garage; and he decided to check it out. He found an intruder in his garage. Did he dial 911 and hope for the best? Let the suspect flee? Call his roommates to help?
He decided to confront the intruder. Not with a gun, with a katana. There are a number of articles, and colored both ways in the typical "there are 3 sides to every story; yours, theirs, and the truth". Some paint the burglar as the "victim" of the brutal homeowner, and others paint the homeowner as an almost hero. The end result was that according to the student, the burglar assaulted him when confronted ... and paid for it with his life.
I'm a bit torn to call it a tragedy, or a victory. The burglar was a repeat offender, with a total of *29* prior criminal convictions, including breaking and entering. He was released from an 18 month jail sentence just 3 days prior to his death. He initiated the combat. I think centuries ago, the student would be a hero, and the townspeople would be glad to have one less "career criminal" around. Modern day? He faces potential charges for his actions and criticism from the "victims" family that paint the student as a homicidal killer who took the life of a good person.
By definition, valor is "strength of mind or spirit that enables a person to encounter danger with firmness". Was it a knightly act to confront an intruder in a home that he shared with other people? Or was it poor judgement? Or...?
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It would be interesting to see see how different (if at all) the fallout would have been if the student had confronted the intruder with a firearm instead of a sword (I'm assumming the intruder was armed). Was it so much the necessity of employing deadly force, or the exotic nature of the weapon that has caused the controversy? Now, I have to go check that the drawbridge is up before retiring for the evening :).
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Sir James, that video IS epic...not sure if it is contrived or not but I think that girl showed courage under fire and it all happened so fast that she obviously did not give it any real thought, just reacted to the situation. Changed that would-be mugger's life, I'll bet she did.
As for that college student, I remember that story- of course the intruder's family would paint him out to be a 'good' guy, that's a knee-jerk reaction. Having 29 priors means he was anything but- and I do not like saying whether or not someone deserves to live or die, but did the student who was being robbed deserve it? In this day and age, any time you take matters into your own hands you must be prepared for the backlash. There are those who believe that life is precious no matter what...I do not necessarily subscribe to this notion. Life itself is precious, the life of a proven criminal however, is not. Not to me.
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That was definitely an interesting case. Personally, I think anyone who intrudes into someone's home (even the enclosed yard, like this case) with criminal intent and behaves violently towards the residents puts his own safety, and life, in forfeit. Period. :)
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AGREED. It is unfortunate that this is not the rule. I feel like the reasoning behind someone performing a break-in should not matter...only that it was done.
We live in a really effed up world...how is it that a burglar can break in, accidentally injure himself in the commission of said break in- and manage to successfully sue the elderly woman he was trying to rob? What the hell was the jury thinking? Sometimes I have to laugh to keep from crying at this sad state of affairs.
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Sadly this is so true of society in this modern world Paladin. :(
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! ~ Isaiah 5:20
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Sometimes it's the civil lawsuits that get you. In many cases, where lethal force was clearly used in a morally correct fashion, the police/district/etc won't charge you criminally. But then the bad guy's family gets a crack at you in civil court, where the burden of evidence is much lower, and they can take your house.
Scary.
But then, I guess that's what true valor is for, eh?
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It would be interesting to see see how different (if at all) the fallout would have been if the student had confronted the intruder with a firearm instead of a sword (I'm assumming the intruder was armed). Was it so much the necessity of employing deadly force, or the exotic nature of the weapon that has caused the controversy? Now, I have to go check that the drawbridge is up before retiring for the evening :).
The sword seemed to be very much the point of debate. Quoting one of the articles about it:
"The incident was the second this week in which a man was wounded trying to commit a robbery. An off-duty Baltimore police officer shot and critically wounded a man who had tried to rob him at gunpoint in his Northeast Baltimore home, according to police. He chased the man for two blocks before opening fire, police said."
I found it a bit odd that no charges were mentioned against the officer, despite the fact that he chased the man for 2 blocks, then opened fire; whereas the student defended himself on his own property. IMO, the officer took things quite far; I'm not sure how it took him 2 blocks of pursuit to decide to start shooting.
That was definitely an interesting case. Personally, I think anyone who intrudes into someone's home (even the enclosed yard, like this case) with criminal intent and behaves violently towards the residents puts his own safety, and life, in forfeit. Period. :)
Laws vary state to state. Virginia law roughly states you have a "duty" to retreat in your own home, until you are unable to do so ... meaning if you're in the living room and someone breaks in, you are supposed to run to the bedroom instead of confronting them.
West Virginia has a "castle law", in which if someone is on your property (literally land, not even inside your house) uninvited, you tell them to leave, and you believe yourself to be in reasonable danger, you can engage them. There is no duty to retreat in the home, and intruders can be dealt with aggressively and forcefully. I had no idea about the difference in laws until after I moved here, and the Virginia law still shocks and concerns me, as I have family that lives there.
It's almost as if valor is illegal in some circumstances. :(
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I think we can all agree defending one's self/home from a violent intruder is valorous (though the legallity may vary by state). However, in the modern era, such events are not typical (I know they happen all the time, I'm just saying the odds are most of us will not find ourselves in such a position). Getting back to Sir Brian's earier post, I agree valor is the impetus to continue forward in the face of fear. Think of valor as the right hand of honor. Honor is "knowing" what is right in a given situation, valor allows one to take the next step and "do" what is right. Again, I'm amazed at how these virtues cannot be truely expressed in a vacuum! In our everyday world, I think of valor as having the courage to do the right thing despite the backlash you know it will bring. Personal courage is not limited to the battlefield.
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Well said, all of you. Sir Brian, that is an apt quote. Sir James, all states should adopt the Castle law...it is true, there will be those who take it to the next level but I think that if criminals are aware that the average Joe Citizen is allowed to protect his household by any means necessary, there would be less home invasions. Criminals are very aware of how the law works- their entire existence depends on them circumventing said laws so only the dumb ones have no clue.
Thankfully, there seems to be a lot of the latter variety.
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Yeah! Go WV! Knightly virtues FTW!
But personally, I agree w/ Sir Ed.
Whenever you do anything, you take a risk. When playing chess, you risk pieces. In business you risk money. When playing sports, you risk injury. Whenever you try to force someone to do anything w/ or even with the threat of lethal force, you risk your life. When you put someones life on the line, you are standing right beside him.