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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Don Diego on 2009-12-11, 16:17:34
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As you can see I have a very plain helm. Where can I find all the cool decor I see on other helms or am I going to have to try and make it myself?
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Hail and well met Don Diego and welcome to the forum! :)
You appear to have a very nice sugarloaf style great helm there. If you were referring to a crest like Sir Edward's and mine that will be problematic.
I also have a hybrid version of the sugarloaf great helm and switched to the older version great helm with the flat top so I could use the current device
I have.
Still a fan type of crest can be made and attached which was also used during period as well as feather plumes in your primary color and metal.
The torse or wreath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torse) shouldn't be too difficult to manage, keeping it in place will be a bit of a pain and may
require the drilling of some holes to adequately lash it to the helm.
Do you have a coat of arms yet or a particular device/charge in mind?
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A crest could still be done, but it would have to have a conical base designed to sit on top of the point of the helm, probably. I'm not sure how difficult that would be.
The crest that I'm using currently comes with a velcro-attached leather base that sits on a flat top. The one I used before, I had made a plywood base with magnets and rubber stand-offs to sit on the flat top as well.
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Hail all noble knights!
I am pondering this very question and the subject is creating a tournament helm. The decorated helm was but decoration and these helms were used in the opening and closing of a tournament field to identify the knights.
It was most common to use the animal from ones coat-of-arms with the metal color from the heraldry. The "cape" was a miniature of the edging and other colors from the coat-of-arms.
So lets say one has a great helm or sugarloaf, well one needs to find an animal that can be mounted -easy if your helm has a flat top, but not so for conical tops or movable visors.
Originally these decoration were made of wood wrapped in leather, or pottery, or even metal sculptures- as they were only worn for a short period, weight was not so much an issue. But can you imaging wearing this for a day at the faire? You would be sore.
So lets explore plastic, you can easily find plastic figures at toy stores, online and best of all educational stores that sell brands like Brio. Once you find a suitable figure, you can bend it using heat, or may have to cut parts, reposition and glue back together. If hollow- a block of wood (like oak or basswood) can be used as a mounting point then use minimal expanding foam (the one used around windows that will not buckle sills) to fill the figure and help lock in your mounting block.
You can then spray-paint your figure and mount it to your helm- here are a couple of things to think about:
A cloth “cape” usually goes under the figure and is made to “fly” about so it should be light material and generally would be made from two contrasting colors to match your coat of arms, with edging to match again that element in your coat of arms- like scalloping or embattlements. This also needs to be secured around the helm – if you have a steel helm- sew magnets into the boarder of the “cape” as this will allow repositioning and removal.
Next if you have a help with a visor….you will have to create a standard that raises the figure and allows the visor to open- not a big issue in an opening ceremony but as I think you may want to drink, eat and breath at a fair it is an issue here. Look at roman helmets for ideas here. It will need to be metal or alternately a light wood (balsa) or plastic cut and colored to work with your figure. This can be permanently affixed using bolts OR if light, go buy some super magnets and glue them to the base of your standard, keep adding until you can’t shake it off holding it upside down. Now its repositionable and removable.
Just where do I scrounge these super magnets you ask. Well any junk hard drive has two of these or you can buy them at hardware stores or craft stores.
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Not sure if this has interest but looking back some threads I found this link:
http://www.crestsunlimited.net/
This company specializes in this, and inexpensive as well. I think Sir Edward was the original finder of this company. :)
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A crest could still be done, but it would have to have a conical base designed to sit on top of the point of the helm, probably. I'm not sure how difficult that would be.
I pondered this with my sugarloaf. I ended up wrapping the helm in clingwrap, and added multiple layers of papermache until I had formed a cap. It was quite sturdy, and made a nice base to build off of.
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Very nice solution Red Knight!
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Hey, that's really looking great! Are you going to add any sort of mantle and torse or just leave it as a crest alone?
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The torse is done, and I made the pattern for the mantle last night. Hopefully this weekend I'll get it put together.
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Wow...you guys are awesome.
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Huzzah! Well done indeed Red Knight! ;D
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Thank you all for the kind words! UPDATE: My castle is going to be besieged by relatives this weekend, hope it doesn't push back my plans.
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Put some oil onto boil? ;)
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Ready the ballistae? :)
What? Am I the only one? lol
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lower the portcullis! arm the troops, man the catapults!
how did you make that thing? wow it looks great
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Try man traps. Dig a pit right in front of the door and plant sharpened trees point up very close together in it. Then cover it with a tarp and some leaves. >:)
It also works for door to door missionaries.
Heh heh heh.
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Put some oil onto boil? ;)
It would only encourage them to deep fry something. Like a turkey.
how did you make that thing?
It's paper mache over a cardboard skeleton, built up over many layers. The feathers are cardboard squares. The details were worked in using a paper mache "clay" recipe I found online. The whole thing got a skim coat of vinyl spackle, then roughly ten coats of decopodge glue. It's pretty durable and very light. Attached it with rare earth magnets epoxied to the underside. Here's a few more pics of the build.
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wow that is sooooooooooo cool
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Excellent! People don't give Paper Mache enough credit. It's remarkably versatile, and can be strong and lightweight.
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you are right Sir Edward. i would have never thought of that medium to work in. nor do I think I could do any good with it.
wanna make a lion head? heheheh jkjk
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Excellent! People don't give Paper Mache enough credit. It's remarkably versatile, and can be strong and lightweight.
I felt the same way at first (shudder as I think about grade school art projects), but then I stumbled upon this site and found out how versatile, and durable it can really be. http://ultimatepapermache.com/ (http://ultimatepapermache.com/) The trick to strength is avoiding voids in the skeleton, and using multiple layers of of paper mache. Also, don't use newspaper, use drywaller joint tape instead. MUCH sturdier. FYI, if you spackle to get an even smoother finish, use VINYL spackel (flexes more than traditional).
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wanna make a lion head? heheheh jkjk
To do list: Shield for paladin, lion head crest for Sir Wolf,...
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Hey, that'll work, Red Knight! And we'll pay!!! Kudos on the use of papier mache...who would've thought?
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Kudos on the use of papier mache...who would've thought?
I read somewhere (can't remember right now) that paper mache was one method used to build tournament crests in period. That's what got me trolling the net for paper mache techniques in the first place.
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Agreed; you seem to have channeled a previous ancestor maybe- the detail on your crest is clear, that it is done in papier mache is what's incredible, I never knew. And I've used the stuff before...well, in art class. lol
I always thought it was some dumb trick to keep us occupied!
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As an aside, I did some quick googling, and it looks like paper mache was invented in China about two thousand years ago. It didn't become popular in Europe until the 17th century, but doll heads may have been made out of it in the 16th. So I'm guessing it wasn't used in crests until the 16th or 17th, but as a modern tool it can certainly get the job done cheaply.
It's very popular amongst the Halloween hobbyists, where you can see some amazing detail. Check out this site: http://pumpkinrot.com/ (http://pumpkinrot.com/). All his props are paper mache, using paper towels.
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It is amazing what a little creativity can accomplish; on the Assassin's Creed forum, I ran into some youngsters who fashioned their own costumes long before Windlass got involved; some of them of course were very rudimentary but there were others that were quite detailed and when you realized all they had to work with was cardboard, aluminum foil and cast-off sheets of material, it was very impressive.
One of those kids actually managed to make the retractable hidden blade out of cardboard and tin foil and it actually slid in and out of the harness with just a quick motion of his arm! Yea, I was pretty quiet on those particular threads having nothing to offer along the same lines.
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I did some quick googling, and it looks like paper mache was invented in China about two thousand years ago. It didn't become popular in Europe until the 17th century, but doll heads may have been made out of it in the 16th. So I'm guessing it wasn't used in crests until the 16th or 17th
I got to thinking about that after I posted and was going to Google that myself when I got home from work. Why was I looking up paper mache?! ???
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I got to thinking about that after I posted and was going to Google that myself when I got home from work. Why was I looking up paper mache?! ???
I wouldn't sweat it. They were made out of all sorts of materials, so fudging the century in terms of the material isn't a huge deal in my book. :)
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The helm is done. I finished the mantel tonight. Here's a few pics.
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Huzzah! Three cheers and a tiger to you Red Knight! Looks AMAZING!
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Fantastic job! Well done indeed! :)
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wow, just wow that is truly awesome
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Oh man, now THAT is gorgeous! Well done!
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Thanks for the kind words, Sirs! If only my 8 year-old felt that way. When I showed it to him he asked, "Daddy, why did you put a cuckoo bird on your helmet?" ;D
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That is beautiful, Red Knight! A true work of art.
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Wow...that was magnificent, Red Knight. Let me know when you're ready to start taking commissions... ;)
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Saw this and thought of Sir Nathan.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/johncmeyer/badass-1.jpg (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/johncmeyer/badass-1.jpg)
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Saw this and thought of Sir Nathan.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/johncmeyer/badass-1.jpg (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/johncmeyer/badass-1.jpg)
This is great! For Sir Nathan's Teutonic affliation I couldn't agree more!
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oh ya
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Saw this and thought of Sir Nathan.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/johncmeyer/badass-1.jpg (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/johncmeyer/badass-1.jpg)
This is great! For Sir Nathan's Teutonic affliation I couldn't agree more!
Interesting, shield-shaped ailettes.
(edit: I know that you meant the helm crest, but the ailettes caught my eye second)
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Fantastic ;D
G.
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So, Sir Patrick...are you ready to create my dragon crest? :)
I wanted a griffin but Sir Brian is really the knight of the griffin, it figures prominently in his arms, and I've seen lions statant and rampant amongst you fine fellows so the lion is out as well. Hyena, perhaps? I do so love to laugh...but no. ;)
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I wouldn't worry too much about using the same beasts as others, since there are only so many to go around. But there are many choices that people forget about, such as eagles, bats, deer, chickens, ravens, bonnacons (lol), wyverns, cockatrices, dogs, wolves, bears, anything really. And there are also the head-only versions. Or just a claw.
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I’ve also liked some of the various fist helm crests or hands clenching a sword or such. ;)
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Was a 'flayed man' ever used? Been reading Game of Thrones, some of their charges are just wildly fascinating to me. Or the use of dead animals as your banner. Probably wouldn't go over well with the family crowds of the RFs. lol
I have a feeling a wyvern is like a dragon, but could you clarify? And which peoples would've used one? You lol'd with bonnacon, what is that, pray tell?
Sir Brian, ever since I saw A Knight's Tale, I've wanted a fist on the end of my lance. You know, I typed that and it struck me as somehow odd or off. lol
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A wyvern is a dragon that has only two legs (like a bird, its "arms" are actually the wings).
A bonnacon is a period mythical beast that is, well, rather interesting. Lord Rodney has one on his shield on our roll of arms. (http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast80.htm (http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast80.htm)). It's like a bison or ox, but farts out explosions of flaming dung that incinerate the countryside. :)
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Bonnacons :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnacon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnacon)
Also, even if we repeat the same animal charges, there's always colors as a difference. I have a white lion. Sir Brian has a gold griffin. That leaves a bunch of other colors of the same charges too.
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So, Sir Patrick...are you ready to create my dragon crest? :).
That sounds like a cool project. Maybe someday...
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Didn't one of our brethren do one of those, with an explosive representation of the effluence of gas? A bonnacon I mean.
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Lord Rodney has a bonnacon in his CoA. ;)
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That's the one...wasn't sure who, just knew that I'd seen that before. Hilarious. I think I'm going to go w/out a charge...can't seem to find one that suits me at the moment.
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The one now adorning my black Great Helm is a Great Dane in cast bronze with a black & gold mantle and a black torse wrapped in gold wire.
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I've never been entirely happy with the way my griffen crest turned out, so the other day I broke out my tools and got to work. I cut down the ears, re-worked the eyes and beak, added feathers to the head, and of course the wings. Just finished gold leafing it and thought I'd post a few pics.
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I need a crest for my helm though on my mother's side of the family their coat of arms is all red with a unicorn, while on my dads side it's a white duck. If I had the choice I'd take unicorn over duck cause well equines are more fierce than ducks and more medieval. Though I cant find either of those in a cast bronze, plus bronze would make it much more heavy.
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Sir Patrick that looks great! I bet it looks pretty impressive in full regalia!
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Sir Patrick that looks great! I bet it looks pretty impressive in full regalia!
Seriously, I'm a little jealous. :)
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Sir Patrick that looks great! I bet it looks pretty impressive in full regalia!
Seriously, I'm a little jealous. :)
Awesome job! That looks great Sir Patrick! :)
I need a crest for my helm though on my mother's side of the family their coat of arms is all red with a unicorn, while on my dads side it's a white duck. If I had the choice I'd take unicorn over duck cause well equines are more fierce than ducks and more medieval. Though I cant find either of those in a cast bronze, plus bronze would make it much more heavy.
Well you don’t have to use either of what is on your parent’s family crest unless your COA is a continuation of theirs but even then you don’t have to use a charge in your COA. You could practically use any charge you want, they were typically some relation to the COA but not always.
I always thought the various hand or fist charges were cool, say for instance a hand holding a hammer or sword would be freakishly unique. :o ;D
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Thanks guys! I will eventually re-do the mantle and torse as well (when I upgrade my surcoat).
EDIT: I'm thinking about ermine for the mantle lining. Would the spots have been embroidered on, or painted back in the day? ???
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I'm thinking about ermine for the mantle lining. Would the spots have been embroidered on, or painted back in the day? ???
Actually either would be appropriate. :)
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I'm thinking about ermine for the mantle lining. Would the spots have been embroidered on, or painted back in the day? ???
Actually either would be appropriate. :)
Stencil it is!
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Looks great Sir Patrick. :)
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Seconded on the crest / mantle / torse compliments - that looks fantastic!