ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Thorsteinn on 2014-06-18, 22:03:02
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Let's talk Honor.
In the SCA, if struck in the leg or arm with sufficient force you lose the use of said limb. It is customary in some places to match the opponent, thus if they are legged you go to your legs, lost arm, you lose an arm, etc. There is among KSCA no consensus on the matter whether doing or not doing this is a good idea. With some calling it fair play and others calling it a backhanded insult. So below is a good example.
I think the winner fought smart, well, and showed his opponent great respect an honor by not giving up his earned advantage.
Thoughts?
Trimaris Fall 2009 Crown Finals: Duke Thorsten vs Sir Krotuas.
(both are lefties too)
Crown2009 finals.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avPHqgcqU1I#)
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And, as Sir Ian pointed out, I rarely give my own opinion on the thought provokers anymore so that I don't prejudice the discussion. However here I have, and it goes like this:
I'm trying to move away from giving up an earned advantage. I feel it shows all my opponents great respect by showing them I feel they are my equal, and given I'm a sneaky bastard on the field I'm betting they are too.
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In my short time in the SCA I have never seen someone give up their advantage earned in combat. The one exception is a two sword fighter losing an arm and the opponent giving up their shield to fight one sword vs one sword...
I see no honor in giving up an earned advantage. You bested your opponent and surgically took away what he or she left open. Now you get to use that leg or arm being disabled to finish the fight.
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Agreed, you earned the advantage, retain it. Not doing so may smack of "I could fight you with one arm behind my back! Oh wait, you're doing that? I'll do it too and I can still win!"
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Personally, I agree. Don't give up the advantage. Make the other person earn their hits, and those hits will be more meaningful.
That's something we've been doing in our demos too, is to not hold back. I remember a few years ago when Sir Nathan asked if we were going easy on him, and our answer was "no". I think that meant more to him that way (he can chime in and let us know for sure). :)
Same deal with our guest "sword & buckler" fighter at VARF. I made him work for hits (which in this case turned into double-kills, but whatever):
(the link should start at the right time index)
https://youtu.be/KKrD_k97DZE?t=13m13s (https://youtu.be/KKrD_k97DZE?t=13m13s)
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My own view is this should depend on the fight - agree that is in part the point of the duel, but if you feel honor dictates as a sign of respect for a particularly worthy opponent or memorable fight, it could be a nice gesture of respect.
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I wouldn't give up the advantage. You worked to get it, you should keep it.
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I agree that I think it should depend on the particular fight/combatants involved. If they really feel they need to do it like that and agree on it beforehand, then fine. Otherwise, it seems kind of silly to give up a legitimately earned advantage.
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Not to mention, the SCA is a re-enacting society- as such, I would think they would seek to reenact all aspects, or as many aspects of medieval practices as possible. I cannot recall ever reading how one or the other combatant gave up an advantage outside of fictional works. I know they aren't fighting to the death, but aren't they supposed to behave as if?
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...the SCA is a re-enacting society- as such, I would think they would seek to reenact all aspects, or as many aspects of medieval practices as possible...
That's a hell of an assumption if you've never been to an SCA event. ;)
As far as this scenario goes, no I don't think you should give up your earned advantage. I don't think it makes you more honorable to immediately give up what you've just earned especially when it falls inside their rules of a chivalric martial art.
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Well, perhaps not the entire society, but a good number of the players make the effort is what I should've said. Thanks Sir Ian.
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Well, perhaps not the entire society, but a good number of the players make the effort is what I should've said. Thanks Sir Ian.
I can't tell be your response, but just in case... it was just a joke.
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Why go through the trouble to defeat your opponent just to give him the advantage? If both agree to the terms of the match the honorable thing would to be see it out. Would the opponent not recognize his foes earned advantage and respect its well earnings.
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My views are not common in the West Kingdom. We have this weird "no arm taking" & "extreme fair play" issue going. To the point I have seen a fighter not go for legs or arms that then got pissed when their opponent didn't match their high-minded silliness.
Besides, the word-fame of one who beats another from great disadvantage is not small. So why deny the opponent that chance? :)
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Your fight for the Crown is how you honor yourself in combat. I expect my opponent to take my head and claim what has been rightly earned and justly deserved. No victory without sacrificing something, but what are you willing to give in order to gain? A noble gesture shows good intention but if you are so willing to take the Crown in a fight, you best earn it. Nothing is giving freely, and merit must be earned.
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I totally agree do not give up an advantage earned...and I have seen fighters in SCA tournaments give up the earned advantage by matching their opponent and then that same fighter not doing it in a crown tourney because it was more important....be consistent if you do it in one tournament do it in all tournaments.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Arthur didn't give up his advantage after dismembering the Black Knight, so neither would I ;)
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I think it is Good to give someone a winning chance still.
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As I said I don't see any problem in making a gesture, if prudent. Just as you earned the right to that advantage to wield should you see fit (and rightly so), in my view you also have the right to give it up, should you so choose, to "keep it a fair fight." For example, if one fighter loses a shield, and the other choses to drop his as well.
Required? Perhaps not. Chivalrous, perhaps even honorable?
It seems I may be in the minority here - and therefore shorter lived on the field :P - but I like entertaining the option.
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Okay so, for me this isn't an honor question, for me it comes down to basics. What are you doing? If the answer is fighting, then fight. Nobody ever got better fighting those who were constantly less skilled than they, nobody improved if their opponents were always nerfed. "Fair play" is all well and good but we are talking combat. Let's take a look at what the word means, it means the art of fighting, war, death, dismemberment, destruction of your opponent so that they don't destroy you. In no war or duel that I have ever heard of in history did one fighter stab another in the leg and say, "Oh sorry mate, let me hop around on just my own leg so it's fair." When you "take off" another dude's leg then keep fighting to win, that is what a competition is. There is a winner and a loser. You don't have to be rude about it, you can congratulate your opponent after for doing as well as they did, give advice if needed, and just all around appreciate the fun of competition but this whole dumbing down your own skill to match another fighter kind of kills the whole point of what you are doing in the first place.
Always strive to improve, always respect your opponent, and always remember that there is always someone out there who is better than you. That is what my thoughts on this are anyway, I invite respectful debate. :)
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Open field melee is my absolute favorite SCA combat activity and my motto is “leg ‘em and leave ‘em”. Stick with your unit and let someone else mop up the folks missing limbs.
That being said, I’ll assume your question pertains only to a one-on-one tournament situation.
I’ve entered & witnessed countless SCA tournaments over 20+ years and never understood giving up an earned advantage. If I take an opponent’s shield arm, I’m sure as heck not dropping my shield too! Maybe it’s the (weekend) Mercenary in me, but I just don’t get it.
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I just had a frightening revelation upon checking my math above. Rattan has been swung viciously in my direction for at least 20 years, potentially approaching 25. I can’t remember the exact year of my “sword and board” authorization. I can remember the gym, the opponent (I still see him around Court from time to time), the ill-fitting plastic pickle barrel armour, the knot in my stomach, and the relief when it was over.
I’ll have to check with my equally senile SCA Mercenary Company members.
Crap, I’m getting old! :o