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Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Mike W. on 2014-02-10, 20:40:36
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Based on the success of Sir William's "I Want To Be a 13th Century English Knight", I've decided to attempt my own post.
I want to portray a typical Norman Knight that would have appeared at the Battle of Hastings. I've created a list of the items I believe I need, though being new to this hobby, I was hoping someone could guide me where to buy affordable and mostly authentic items.
Here's what I've gotten so far:
Soft Kit:
Under Tunic
Braies
Red Tunic
Black Hoses
Tan Winingas
Gambeson
Shoes
Coif
Belt
Hard Kit:
Round wire riveted rings with alternate flat rings hauberk
Round wire riveted rings with alternate flat rings coif (will probably try to integrate this with hauberk)
Olmutz style spangenhelm
Type Xa Sword
Scabbard with integrated belt
Tear Drop Shield
Spurs
Spear with Pennon
Axe
Utility/Eating Knife
Is there anything that I'm missing? Does anyone recommend a certain vendor? (I was looking at Kult of Athena, Historic Enterprises, and Allbeststuff mostly).
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Wow, that sounds pretty complete already. I think you might want to post some pictures before the forum crowd gets ugly. ;)
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How handy are you? A Norman kite shield is pretty easy to make and will save you $ for the rest of your kit. Heres the directions I used to make mine:
http://yeoldegaffers.com/project_shieldpress.asp (http://yeoldegaffers.com/project_shieldpress.asp)
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I used those directions already to make a kite shield with great success. Though I did take a few short cuts. I used a canvas covering, modern domed carriage bolts, and staples instead of rawhide.
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When my next paycheck comes in on friday, I think I'll get started buying some of the soft kit. I want to hold out before I get hard kit items just to make sure I'm getting the right stuff.
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Wow, that sounds pretty complete already. I think you might want to post some pictures before the forum crowd gets ugly. ;)
THIS...where are my dang on pictures!
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Wow, that sounds pretty complete already. I think you might want to post some pictures before the forum crowd gets ugly. ;)
THIS...where are my dang on pictures!
I don't have pics cause I don't have the kit yet! I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything before crossing stuff off the shopping list.
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Also, I noticed that helms in the bayeux tapestry are depicted in multiple colors, where as the maille is depicted in grey, thus leading me to believe that helms were painted. Anyone have any thoughts?
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They probably were painted or decorated in someway, there's decent amount of artistic evidence. Here's a manuscript from the very early 12th century (1109-1111). Although here the maille is all different colors too, but not quite as distinct as the helmets.
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/519-6_gallery.jpg)
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/519-4_gallery.jpg)
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When my next paycheck comes in on friday, I think I'll get started buying some of the soft kit. I want to hold out before I get hard kit items just to make sure I'm getting the right stuff.
Yeah, that's a good way to go. It's always best to get what goes under your armor before getting the armor itself. That helps ensure that everything fits properly, since measurement for armor are usually taken over your arming garments.
Also, I noticed that helms in the bayeux tapestry are depicted in multiple colors, where as the maille is depicted in grey, thus leading me to believe that helms were painted. Anyone have any thoughts?
Painted helms was definitely not unusual during the run of the medieval period. Whether or not that practice ran as far back as the Norman Conquest, though, I can't say for sure.
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Doesn't James Barker sport a painted Norman helm on his profile pic here (or over at My Armoury)? Blue and white stripes if I recall.
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Hard Kit:
Round wire riveted rings with alternate flat rings hauberk
Round wire riveted rings with alternate flat rings coif (will probably try to integrate this with hauberk)
Olmutz style spangenhelm
Type Xa Sword
Scabbard with integrated belt
Tear Drop Shield
Spurs
Spear with Pennon
Axe
Utility/Eating Knife
Is there anything that I'm missing? Does anyone recommend a certain vendor? (I was looking at Kult of Athena, Historic Enterprises, and Allbeststuff mostly).
Mail: IceFalcon.com or KultOfAthena.com - I have personal experience with both and been happy with both. Heard good things about AllBestStuff but no personal experience with them.
Type Xa Sword: Albion-Swords.com if you want high tier, or MuseumReplicas.com if you want a serviceable sword that isn't just for wall-hanging. Personal experience with both, and also swords through KultOfAthena too.
Scabbard w/Belt: Would normally say CrusaderMonk.com, but he is not taking any orders for a while due to deployment. DBK scabbards are highly regarded, but expensive and around a year long wait time... some of the swords from MuseumReplicas.com will actually come with a decent scabbard/belt combo (functional but not living history grade), such as http://museumreplicas.com/p-1902-the-accolade-sword-of-the-knights-templar.aspx (http://museumreplicas.com/p-1902-the-accolade-sword-of-the-knights-templar.aspx)
Spurs: Raymond's Quiet Press, or possibly KultOfAthena. I forget where I bought my second pair, first was from RQP but had some issues. Others haven't.
Spear and Axe: Arms & Armor for upper tier, or Museum Replicas / Kult of Athena for serviceable
Eating knife: Quite a few places depending exactly what you want. I got a set from MedievalCollectibles but it's a generic medieval set and not specific to them, multiple places had it, but they had it in stock and the best price
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So I was thinking of getting most of the soft kit from Historic Enterprises, the gambeson and helm from KoA, spurs from Quiet Press, and the maille from allbeststuff. I'd love Icefalcon maille, but I can actually afford allbeststuff. I already have an Albion Senlac. I'll make the shield and attempt the scabbard (I have the materials so might as well). I'll put off the spear and axe just so I can re-allocate the funds to more necessary purchases. As for the knife, I've only found one at Historic Enterprises. I also want a pouch for my modern essentials, but haven't found one authentic to the 11th century.
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My unsolicited opinion on scabbards:
Crusader monk can't make the appropriate type of scabbard anyway (integrated sword belts), and his are very ahistorical, so it's a non-issue if you're looking for a historical scabbard.
DBK stuff is very nice, not my cup of tea for a medieval aesthetic (his stuff looks way more American Southwest to me than medieval), but his skill in leather is pure artistry, but a year wait is too much for me.
Christian Fletcher has a much quicker turn around time and is a big step up from Crusader Monk, but not quite as nice as DBK. However, CF uses a lot of modern hardware.
The only 'production scabbard' guy I know of that makes real medieval 'looking' scabbards is Todstuff in the UK. Leo Todeschini really nails the medieval aesthetic. His stuff is a pretty penny though, and would require overseas shipping.
I think Jeff Hildebrandt at Royal Oak is going to start dabbling in scabbard-making, and without ever seeing one by him I'm willing to bet he nails it...
I've basically left you with no clear choice for a scabbard, but if I had to pick out of those, I would go for Christian Fletcher for turn around time, very nice work, and if you get an integrated sword belt with thongs, then there's no hardware anyway, so it would appear very historic.
**I just saw you said you'd like to attempt the scabbard yourself... that's probably the best choice. If you've got patience and take it slow, you'll get exactly what you want**
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This is a good read on the Normans:
http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/norman.htm (http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/norman.htm)
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So I've come to a dilemma with the soft kit. Historic Enterprises has the Complete Anglo-Saxon Outfit: ( http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/outfit-anglosaxon-complete-linen-p-870.html (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/outfit-anglosaxon-complete-linen-p-870.html) ) which comes with St. Louis Shirt, a Moselund-esque Tunic, Trousers, and Winingas and a bonus brooch. They also sell The 13th Century Package ( http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-13th-century-underwear-complete-wool-p-1303.html (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-13th-century-underwear-complete-wool-p-1303.html) ) which comes with St. Louis Shirt, Braies, Wool Hose, and a bonus coif (all of which I could re-purpose for another kit), but I'd have to get the tunic and the winigas separately, which comes out to about $25 more. So the issue is would a Norman knight wear hose or trousers, a Moselund Tunic or a Skjoldehamn Tunic?
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Painted helms was definitely not unusual during the run of the medieval period. Whether or not that practice ran as far back as the Norman Conquest, though, I can't say for sure.
My suspicion is that helms were painted more often than not, when we're talking 11th - 13th centuries. It's an easy way to protect against rust, and make people identifiable on the field. We know it was done, it's just hard to find proof as to where on the spectrum it was, between "sometimes", "usually", or "always".
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So I've come to a dilemma with the soft kit. Historic Enterprises has the Complete Anglo-Saxon Outfit: ( http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/outfit-anglosaxon-complete-linen-p-870.html (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/outfit-anglosaxon-complete-linen-p-870.html) ) which comes with St. Louis Shirt, a Moselund-esque Tunic, Trousers, and Winingas and a bonus brooch. They also sell The 13th Century Package ( http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-13th-century-underwear-complete-wool-p-1303.html (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-13th-century-underwear-complete-wool-p-1303.html) ) which comes with St. Louis Shirt, Braies, Wool Hose, and a bonus coif (all of which I could re-purpose for another kit), but I'd have to get the tunic and the winigas separately, which comes out to about $25 more. So the issue is would a Norman knight wear hose or trousers, a Moselund Tunic or a Skjoldehamn Tunic?
Where in the 11th Century are you, portrayal-wise? Is there a specific event or battle that you're aiming for? If you mentioned it before, I apologize for missing it- knowing your time frame will help with choosing the right item to wear or display. Since you specify 'Norman', I don't know that you'd wear Anglo-Saxon style clothing...as a Norman your probable outlook would be one of subjugation; adopting local dress and customs wasn't something the Normans were known for. I could be wrong, of course.
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I'm going for a typical Norman Knight as he would have appeared at the Battle of Hastings.
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Then you definitely do not want the Anglo-Saxon package; might be worth reading up on the subject as it is your area of interest. Since I haven't dabbled in that period I know little about it; my first interest was the Crusades which might be useful to you in that it started at the end of the 11th century so some of the garments may be appropriate for an earlier portrayal.
I've gotten some good info here: http://angevin.org/ (http://angevin.org/) - a website dedicated to Anglo-Norman portrayals (also happens to have Elizabeth Chadwick as a card-carrying member); should give you a decent start.
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It seems as though hose would be more appropriate. Even the Osprey book (which I find to be generally trustworthy) mentioned hose, though they also mentioned trousers. I think the hose will be more versatile in the long run.
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trousers are in the iffy world. there are really only 1 pair of trousers found and they are from the thorjborg finds. and they are way outta date for normans.... but accepted ok for saxons for soem reason lol
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So I guess it boils down to- which would you prefer? Trousers or hosen? Personally, I prefer trousers, but I think that's mostly due to modern convenience...hosen and pointing to braies is a pain and I always feel somewhat under protected.
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but u need 2 belts for trousers. one for the trousers and one over the tunic.
oh, and don't forget the period norman haircut. you gotta do it lol
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LOL
I do a close approximation of the Norman style bowl cut.
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As much as I value historical accuracy, I do have a professional reputation to maintain. I think my boss might find it weird if I came in with the back of my head shaved.
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The Normans did use chausses and braies. I use an anglo saxon tunic with my kit which is 13th century but it works for it. It's actually quite a good tunic but I would suggest that combo for the Normans as thats what I heard from the vikings north america group I hung with at DoK 1. You also could add some leg wraps to it as well as I've seen them used on period Norman art.
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As much as I value historical accuracy, I do have a professional reputation to maintain. I think my boss might find it weird if I came in with the back of my head shaved.
aww thats cute lol
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3517/3278218494_abd521435d_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3330/3278218440_09c3131545_o.jpg)
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(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/610/825/eec.jpg)
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(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/610/825/eec.jpg)
Not until he tailors his mail sleeves! ;)
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that, was a long time ago. 2006 ;)
http://historiclife.com/Events/Norman.htm (http://historiclife.com/Events/Norman.htm) for some good pics of norman stuff over the years.
how to hose pattern
http://historiclife.com/Essays/howto_hose.html (http://historiclife.com/Essays/howto_hose.html)
11c clothing
http://historiclife.com/HistoricalClothing/11th.htm (http://historiclife.com/HistoricalClothing/11th.htm)
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I'm in the market for a pouch and someone recommended Boots by Bohemond. Now I know kidney pouches were common during the middle ages, but I was under the impression they didn't become common place until the 13th century and on. Since I'm doing an 11th cen Norman impression, I want to get a pouch that would be appropriate. I've been eyeballing the last three pouches on this site http://www.bootsbybohemond.net/index.php/shop-ii/purses-in-pieces (http://www.bootsbybohemond.net/index.php/shop-ii/purses-in-pieces)
Anyone have any suggestions?
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if i ever wore mine, it was a simple woolen round bag. it had a draw string at the top.
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I'm in the market for a pouch and someone recommended Boots by Bohemond. Now I know kidney pouches were common during the middle ages, but I was under the impression they didn't become common place until the 13th century and on. Since I'm doing an 11th cen Norman impression, I want to get a pouch that would be appropriate. I've been eyeballing the last three pouches on this site http://www.bootsbybohemond.net/index.php/shop-ii/purses-in-pieces (http://www.bootsbybohemond.net/index.php/shop-ii/purses-in-pieces)
Anyone have any suggestions?
The book he references Dress Accessories, from the Medieval Finds From Excavations in London series indicates that those leather purses with flap closures like that are more of a late medieval fashion.
The early examples of purses in that book are simple leather pouches with draw-string closures at the top. They also only date back to the 12th century (That book only goes as far back as 1150).
Could you wear a purse with a leather flap closure at DoK? Yes, and most people will be none-the-wiser, but if you want to be true to a Norman purse, those are probably a little fashion forward for the 11th century. The bottom one on Boots by Bohemond (the Berengaria pouch) could probably be modified to make it a little simpler. Or you could just make a simple draw-string pouch from some veg-tanned leather.
I own the Berengaria (my wife wears it), and the Bollock Purse, both are nice quality.
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Since I've got quite a bit of leather scraps, I think I'll just make my own then. Besides, I feel that making your stuff is much more rewarding.
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So here's the results of my first foray into leatherworking...
(http://i.imgur.com/Wj9GT8F.jpg)
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They look nice! Did you make a tutorial, by chance? :)
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I sorta just winged it and surprisingly it turned out well. I could type one up for you, but I neglected to take pictures of the process.
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Very nice indeed! And yes, sometimes making your own stuff is what makes it fun. ;D
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Looks great!
And yes, sometimes making your own stuff is what makes it fun. ;D
Definitely!
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Quick question: I bought this wooden plate for a $1 at a yard sale. Could it be used as a trencher?
(http://i.imgur.com/T3lQOwo.jpg)
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Came across this site today and thought you might find it useful.
http://angevin.org (http://angevin.org)
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Quick question: I bought this wooden plate for a $1 at a yard sale. Could it be used as a trencher?
I know that sounds like a simple question, but do you mean does it look like a proper medieval trencher or can you use it at DoK?
The answers to those questions are not really, and yes. DoK's standards would definitely allow the use of that plate as a trencher. Would it meet the requirements of a strict LH group, probably not. I use something similar with plans to eventually upgrade, but good medieval trenchers are hard to find.
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Well that answers my question quite nicely. Thanks
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For your time frame, a thick piece of bread would often as not be the trencher.
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That sounds... appetizing.
Good news is I've ordered most of my soft kit from Historic Enterprises!
It may be a little while before I order some armor. I was eyeballing allbeststuff.com, but I'm a little hesitant to buy the cheap Indian stuff (though I haven't heard any complaints). I'm thinking that I'm just gonna save up and spend the extra money for GDFB and be more confident in the quality of the piece.
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Well, no matter where you get it from, if it be the likes of Kult of Athena, GDFB or similar sites, it's mostly if not all Indian-made. That in and of itself doesn't mean its garbage (altho a good bit of it is) just that you'll most likely need to tailor it somehow. Even if you go to one of the retailers who make (or have someone else not Indian make) it, it might still need tailoring to some degree- not to mention cost 2 - 3 times more than the Indian stuff.
It is what I'll end up going with, just need to pick which retailer I want to work with (one of the guys on AA decided to try his hand at being a retailer of this sort of maille, working with a shop to produce shirts and hauberks in about 1 - 2 months, considering going with him because I'd have an avenue to pursue if I'm not happy; that may not always be the case w/anything bought overseas direct) and give him my money. lol
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So my next project will be to build the kite shield, but I have a dilemma... Do I make it concave or flat?
I've seem most modern re-creations to be concave, but I have also seen flat. Additionally, the Bayeux Tapestry shows troops using their shields as tables.
(http://www.historynotes.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/medieval-food1.jpg)
I don't think you could easily do that with concave shields.
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A flat shield doesn't protect as well as a rounded shield. I don't think flat is very useful and often is a "I don't have a way to curve it" concession. I thought, curved down like "n" instead of up like "u" would make it reasonably usable as a table since things would slide towards the center instead of off - but I'm not sure if part of what I'm looking at on those shields is a strap / handle or something else. I thought this would be a very simple question, but quite the contrary.
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i have both.
personally i like the curved one better. better protection etc. i can use it as a table, just set it in the center etc
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I'm at the point where I've got my soft kit, I've got the helm, I'll be working on the shield come warmer weather, and all the remains is the maille.
I've been looking at allbeststuff and picked out these two:
http://allbeststuff.com/Round-Rivet-Flat-Washer-Chain-Mail-Shirt-Hauberk-Medium (http://allbeststuff.com/Round-Rivet-Flat-Washer-Chain-Mail-Shirt-Hauberk-Medium)
-It's just about the right size
http://allbeststuff.com/Round-Riveted-Flat-Solid-Ring-Coif (http://allbeststuff.com/Round-Riveted-Flat-Solid-Ring-Coif)
-I intend to cut off the aventail and rivet the coif to the hauberk
They're inexpensive and I've heard good things about their maille. But just before I click the "Confirm Order" button, I thought I would get an extra opinion or two.
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Here's the deal with maille. Virtually all of it is made in India, and is not really accurate to historical maille. There's really nothing we can do about that short of investing countless hours making it ourselves (no thanks, I'd go insane before completing it), or by spending way more money than I can afford to get maille made right.
That being said, allbeststuff, gdfb, icefalcon etc... it's virtually all the same to varying degrees. What we can control on our end in terms of accuracy is the general type of maille we get, be it flat-ring wedge-riveted, or round-ring, pin rivets, or some permutation of the different options out there. So, get as close as you can to what you want, and go in knowing that no matter where you buy your maille from it will require work when you get it.
You will need to tailor the arms, perhaps alter the torso tube, add triangle gores to the sides or front to tailor the waist etc. These things are pretty much a given. So if you go in knowing all that, and you're willing to do what we can on our end to make the best product out of what we have available to us, it really doesn't matter what you buy.
The only caveat to that is, I would stay away from the butted stuff, aluminum stuff, and perhaps even the galvanized stuff (because removing that can be dangerous if you decide to one day).
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Thanks Ian! You've confirmed what I've already been mulling over. I don't mind tailoring (though having only done it with butted, which is much more forgiving), I'll give it a shot. Guess I'll what until the next paycheck comes in on Friday and it'll be mine!! ;D
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I want to save as much money as I can and thus I'm always looking for items that can be re-purposed for other kits. That being said, currently I'm working on a 11th century kit. Unless I'm mistaken, the maille was elbow and knee length with an integral coif. I also plan on having a 1st/2nd crusade kit, in which era I believe the maille was wrist length (with mittens) and knee length with an integral coif. I was thinking, instead of buying two separate maille garments, could I save some money by purchasing a long sleeved hauberk, severing the sleeves at the elbow, and setting aside the rest (with mittens), and reattaching it with a seam of butted maille when I want to switch to Crusades era? I know it's not historically accurate, but for someone who's on a budget and wants to get the most out of their money, to me its seems like a viable option.