ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Don Jorge on 2013-11-15, 22:24:26
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These are my Inspirations:
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/image.jpg)
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/821/1127/ (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/821/1127/)
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/gunther_von_schwarzburg_a_s15_r749_large.jpg)
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/622/816/ (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/622/816/)
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/miles_stapleton_s1_r13_large.jpg)
Not sure if these Facebook pictures will post if you aren't friends with Keith:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/306928_4307980276885_506642682_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/906940_4714477459371_415002416_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/522720_496707940393481_1324083284_n.jpg)
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/302819_10151137588128730_1468620854_n.jpg)
I have been in contact with Mad Matt and got a quote to build a set around the german effigy that looks like the stuff Keith has in his kit. A few considerations I needed help with are:
1. The helmet...should it be a great helm, sugar loaf or bascinet for a 1351-1364 era kit.
2. Should I go with all splinted leather on every piece like the german effigy or go with Stapleton's kit that is more English and thus more up to date with the plate arms and splinted cuisses and greaves. I was told from a saftey point of view I should stay away from splinted arms...any input on that?
3. Leather or fabric CoP? or does it not matter because eventually I will get a surcoat?
4. How historical would it be NOT to wear maile underneath everything? Keith said it can be done and in SCA no one will bust my chops...it would be nice to have some reprieve on expenses as far as armor goes for a little while...if I showed up to DoK this next year would I not be allowed to not dress up if I didnt have chain under the kit?
5. I have read extensively about voiders for transitional sets and there is no proof AGAINST them, as many transitional kits are based off effigies (there is very little existing armor out there I am told) and voiders and aventail and skirt would trick an effigie into looking like a haubergeon. I ask because...
6. Gambesons...I seriously contemplating the revival.us gambeson and I am told that it might not work so good with riveted mail haubergeon with the cloth buttons and it being so thin. The kit Matt has quoted me is about $1300 shipped for a Helm with a peferrated sheet under the eyes for HEMA/WMA, shoulders, rerebraces, elbows, vambraces, cuisses, knee cops (fluted like the german effigy), and greaves...all of it splinted. That plus the gambeson and some period shows put me at like $1500...The wife is not going to go for that easily and putting 250-350 on a gambeson and 500 more on riveted wedged flat mail....it isn't going to happen. So I was thinking paying the 100 bucks for the revival.us gambeson and transition it into HEMA once I have had time to save up and get the gambeson and mail.
Any ideas or suggestions on what I should do with the kit?
Thanks,
Jorge
P.S. Thinking about black CoP, red gambeson and maybe a red belt...red and black is overused but hey, it looks spiffy and hides the blood ;)
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Wow! Great kit
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Agreed. Nice kit!!
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1. The helmet...should it be a great helm, sugar loaf or bascinet for a 1351-1364 era kit.
2. Should I go with all splinted leather on every piece like the german effigy or go with Stapleton's kit that is more English and thus more up to date with the plate arms and splinted cuisses and greaves. I was told from a saftey point of view I should stay away from splinted arms...any input on that?
3. Leather or fabric CoP? or does it not matter because eventually I will get a surcoat?
4. How historical would it be NOT to wear maile underneath everything? Keith said it can be done and in SCA no one will bust my chops...it would be nice to have some reprieve on expenses as far as armor goes for a little while...if I showed up to DoK this next year would I not be allowed to not dress up if I didnt have chain under the kit?
5. I have read extensively about voiders for transitional sets and there is no proof AGAINST them, as many transitional kits are based off effigies (there is very little existing armor out there I am told) and voiders and aventail and skirt would trick an effigie into looking like a haubergeon. I ask because...
6. Gambesons...I seriously contemplating the revival.us gambeson and I am told that it might not work so good with riveted mail haubergeon with the cloth buttons and it being so thin. The kit Matt has quoted me is about $1300 shipped for a Helm with a peferrated sheet under the eyes for HEMA/WMA, shoulders, rerebraces, elbows, vambraces, cuisses, knee cops (fluted like the german effigy), and greaves...all of it splinted. That plus the gambeson and some period shows put me at like $1500...The wife is not going to go for that easily and putting 250-350 on a gambeson and 500 more on riveted wedged flat mail....it isn't going to happen. So I was thinking paying the 100 bucks for the revival.us gambeson and transition it into HEMA once I have had time to save up and get the gambeson and mail.
1. A sugarloaf is a little outdated for your chosen time period. A great helm or bascinet would be appropriate. If you want to go German, thean a shovel-face klappvisor bascinet would be ideal, or if you dig the great helm you can still get away with it for this period (but know it's really more for mounted combat, not foot combat, historically the great helm would have been worn over a bascinet and then discarded or removed after the charge and the fighting moved to foot).
2. If you like the German persona I would stay with the splinted. I've never heard of splint having safety issues, and tons of SCAdians use it.
3. Leather is more durable, but almost all surviving COPs and Brigs etc are fabric covered, not leather covered, but they wouldn't have minded replacing fabric frequently.
4. If you want the historical answer, a knight would be wearing a full maille haubergeon under their plate or splint at this time almost without exception by contemporary art and effigies. It will add considerable weight to your harness (it's the single heaviest piece of kit in my full plate harness). But you're right, the SCA will not bust your chops if you choose to go without it.
5. Currently there is virtually no concrete evidence for voiders/skirts until the 15th century when plate harnesses provided enough coverage making the full haubergeon redundant. Remember, proving a negative is not logically possible, so saying there's no proof something didn't exist is meaningless in historical context, but again, the SCA is not going to bust your chops if you want to 'look' like you're wearing a haubergeon.
6. I have no experience with the revival.us gamby, but the revivalclothing.com gamby is of similar design and it is specifically designed to be worn under maille (I have the linen version and wore it under maille for years until I made my Charles de Blois pourpoint) with normal wear and tear. You don't need a lot of padding with a maille haubergeon that's only supplementing a CoP / splint limbs or plate harness. Heavier padded gambesons are more important for harnesses that are primarily maille.
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Just my opinions, of course. The ones I didn't respond to, I don't have an answer or suggestion.
2. Should I go with all splinted leather on every piece like the german effigy or go with Stapleton's kit that is more English and thus more up to date with the plate arms and splinted cuisses and greaves. I was told from a saftey point of view I should stay away from splinted arms...any input on that?
From a safety perspective, somebody hitting you hard enough to leave bruises or break bones through splinted or plate is hitting too hard. If you're doing steel combat, even rebated edges will "chew" at the leather if they strike it without grounding out on the steel splints, but it's not going to fail overnight or in a single bout, it would take many years.
3. Leather or fabric CoP? or does it not matter because eventually I will get a surcoat?
Leather will be more expensive; if it's getting covered and you aren't doing living history, doesn't really matter.
4. How historical would it be NOT to wear maile underneath everything? Keith said it can be done and in SCA no one will bust my chops...it would be nice to have some reprieve on expenses as far as armor goes for a little while...if I showed up to DoK this next year would I not be allowed to not dress up if I didnt have chain under the kit?
When you're talking about fighting in plastic armor (SCA) and fighting with imaginary armor that doesn't even reflect what you're wearing, anybody busting your chops over lack of a haubergeon can probably be ignored. As far as Days of Knights, I don't think it would be an issue to not have the mail. If you can find effigies or sources that show it existed without the mail - perfect. If you can't, make sure when people ask about the armor or if you give any impromptu presentations that you mention mail would be worn with the armor. Many people are in-between states of completion with their kits, and as long as you don't try to pass it off as complete and accurate when it isn't, it isn't a terrible offense. The primary goal for DoK is to keep out fairies, dragons, dwarves, sci fi, etc.
5. I have read extensively about voiders for transitional sets and there is no proof AGAINST them, as many transitional kits are based off effigies (there is very little existing armor out there I am told) and voiders and aventail and skirt would trick an effigie into looking like a haubergeon. I ask because...
It's a very loaded topic. Even some accounts of voiders in later period harness aren't always constant. There is artwork showing that late period italian armor, when it was "full plate", had a double-layer fauld; some speculation on it actually being a fauld with a haubergeon worn over it. Some of the later period italian armor actually wears the sleeves of the haubergeon over top of the upper arm harness, which means it cannot be voiders. The best we can do is make an educated guess at what's hidden from us in pictures, by trying to extrapolate from other sources. So I would say, buy whichever, as there's no hard evidence one way or the other.
6. Gambesons...I seriously contemplating the revival.us gambeson and I am told that it might not work so good with riveted mail haubergeon with the cloth buttons and it being so thin. The kit Matt has quoted me is about $1300 shipped for a Helm with a peferrated sheet under the eyes for HEMA/WMA, shoulders, rerebraces, elbows, vambraces, cuisses, knee cops (fluted like the german effigy), and greaves...all of it splinted. That plus the gambeson and some period shows put me at like $1500...The wife is not going to go for that easily and putting 250-350 on a gambeson and 500 more on riveted wedged flat mail....it isn't going to happen. So I was thinking paying the 100 bucks for the revival.us gambeson and transition it into HEMA once I have had time to save up and get the gambeson and mail.
The mail can catch on the buttons a bit but once you have it on, it should be of minimal issue. I've had my haubergeon on over cloth button gambeson and aside from actively getting into it, didn't have any other trouble. I haven't worn it for 10 hours, only around the house, but it's a minor concern. You can always take the cloth buttons off and do a spiral lace conversion - it's just cutting off the buttons and sewing holes. The most important aspect of a gambeson should be in the arms/fitment, rather than how it stays closed.
You can always start with a cheaper gambeson and upgrade later. They are somewhat of a "wear and tear" item, you probably won't have it forever.
You can also pick up the mail down the road. No need to buy everything all at once. Most people don't. Have it on the radar as a planned kit upgrade, but start with the basics and work from there.
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The primary goal for DoK is to keep out fairies, dragons, dwarves, sci fi, etc.
For the sake of full disclosure, this isn't exactly true. While it is of course a goal of DoK to keep out the fantasy stuff, the standards are a lot higher than the implication in that sentence. But to answer your question, you could certainly forego a maille haubergeon at something like DoK, but it should certainly be explained that normally one would be worn and you are omitting it. Here are the published standards for DoK (these are probably more stringent than the reality of the event though) http://daysofknightsfrankfort.com/html/standards.html (http://daysofknightsfrankfort.com/html/standards.html)
The truth of the matter is that SCA kits will generally not pass muster at a Living History event because of the compromises made to the kits for the sport's safety regulations, and a lot of living history kits will conversely not pass muster for the SCA because they're either missing safety requirements or are made from steel that is too light of a gauge etc.
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The primary goal for DoK is to keep out fairies, dragons, dwarves, sci fi, etc.
For the sake of full disclosure, this isn't exactly true. While it is of course a goal of DoK to keep out the fantasy stuff, the standards are a lot higher than the implication in that sentence.
Probably a better way to state it is that was one of the original goals, and the standards have been creeping up ever since. :)
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Thank you so much for all the responses! So Matt and I were speaking last night about the helmet and as a general consensus we decided on a bascinet and he suggested a shovel visor for the time period I am looking at...I love the look on it and while more expensive than the great helm, I think it might be worth it...
(http://armstreet.com/catalogue/full/medieval-italian-bascinet-helmet.jpg)
Also I was thinking about articulated arms vs riveted arms...it saves me 40 bucks...the other option was for shoulder armor like the one in my first pic, a simple teardrop or spade spaulder instead of like in Stapleton's effigy the 3 plate spaulders. The spade spaulder like in (http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/belemrys/image.jpg) would save me 50 bucks and would work better with the full splinted leather set.
Any opinions on this bascinet with the shovel visor vs great helm and splinted leather arms w/simple spade spaulder vs plate arms with 3 plate spaulders?
Thanks,
Jorge
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The very narrow shovel face like the one you linked is from what I know specifically an Italian style. I think it's a pretty cool looking helmet. The Germanic shovel face is more like this:
(sca,bascinet)(http://armstreet.com/catalogue/full/medieval-heavy-bascinet-helm-helmet-armor-sca-14-ga-6.jpg)
It's just a wider visor, but similar style. Either helmet is appropriate for the time period, they just vary in locale is all. Personally, I think a bascinet is a more practical helmet than a great helm. You can pop the visor off and see and breathe, which is nice, and it's more closely fitted. :)
I see nothing wrong with doing a simple spaulder for the shoulder to pair with a splinted arm harness. That kit in the photo you linked is a very nice kit, if you can duplicate a similar style I think you'll be very happy with the results. FWIW, I don't see any historical problems with that kit.
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Clang Armoury's got some great stuff too, and I would definitely hit up the Armour Archive because the CotT is a huge thing over there so lots of good folks to help there.
-SCA fighter for 13 years.
Cynaguan Guardsman.
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The primary goal for DoK is to keep out fairies, dragons, dwarves, sci fi, etc.
For the sake of full disclosure, this isn't exactly true. While it is of course a goal of DoK to keep out the fantasy stuff, the standards are a lot higher than the implication in that sentence.
Probably a better way to state it is that was one of the original goals, and the standards have been creeping up ever since. :)
Agreed, I didn't summarize it very well. There is still a plethora of things completely "wrong" from a pure historical replica perspective; no bloomery iron swords, butted mail, stainless armor, machine sewn garments, etc. I have that kind of thing in my head but it doesn't always make it out to the keyboard. :)
Sir Ian certainly raised the bar and set it phenomenally high at the first Days of Knights. There were very few representations of his caliber. It seems DoK2013 was even more impressive, and I can't wait to see who/what 2014 has in the lineup. I haven't heard that the standards have changed, but the quality of the portrayals has certainly creeped up higher and looks to go even further still. And that makes me want to go even more!
As far as the kit recommendations and single vs articulated; I know it's going to sound strange, but don't think of it as much from a financial perspective. Yes, you can save $40 by going with single shoulder vs articulated. However, what do you WANT? If it means your kit costs $2,800 instead of $2,200 to get what you want vs what is cheaper, go for the $2,800 - but give yourself more time to budget for it and assemble it. If you're replicating a specific kit style, don't deviate from it unless you have a non-monetary reason to (personal preference or historical precedence). Or pick up a second job, overtime, sell some unneeded internal organs - whatever options you can pursue.
If you buy it the cheap way at $2,200 and find you aren't happy with parts of it, and then throw pieces in a box and/or buy replacements to something you want instead of what was cheapest, you're not saving much (or any) money. Plus, going slow with it, there is also potential something you want/need for the kit will come up for sale either used or through a vendor sale - and that saves you some money.
There's no deadline on getting a kit finished by a specific date; or is there? :)
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If you buy it the cheap way at $2,200 and find you aren't happy with parts of it, and then throw pieces in a box and/or buy replacements to something you want instead of what was cheapest, you're not saving much (or any) money. Plus, going slow with it, there is also potential something you want/need for the kit will come up for sale either used or through a vendor sale - and that saves you some money.
There's no deadline on getting a kit finished by a specific date; or is there? :)
Not only this, but you will end up buying your kit OVER again until you are happy. Trust us, we've all been guilty of this. Had we just bought what we really wanted and committed the time and money the first time, it would have saved us money in the end, because eventually you WILL get what you want. It just depends on whether or not you buy it first, or after a long series of mistakes.
My kit is not complete yet, it's still missing some very important parts, and since I went down the path of getting what I really want it's been 3 years in the making due to research and budget. These things take time.
Sir James is also inflating my kit a little bit, and I appreciate his compliments :) , it may be nice, but compared to other impressions at DoK I would say it fits in just fine, but hardly sets the bar higher than the other offerings. Especially after this year!
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I can talk from experience to what Sir Ian is saying, if I had known what I knew now I wouldn't of bought most parts of my older kits. I ended up buying a new custom gambeson wasting money on old premade ones I am never gonna use anymore, I sold my old maille because I wasnt satisfied with it, I ended up rebuying a new sword anyway due to me wanting the top quality goods. I would say the safest route you could take would be to do partially what I did and go for a common footsoldier first then "build it up" from there. Thats what I did then I jumped straight into living history. SCA wise I am not to familiar with though. Get what you really want instead of taking the cheaper route. Believe me it's much more worth to get what you really want and be happy than buy it all over again.
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If it weren't for all this armor and gambesons purchases in my future and the need for a feder and fencing mask for HEMA I would totally be bidding on this right now....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Albion-Steward-Next-Generation-Line-Sword-/181264113721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a342ee039 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Albion-Steward-Next-Generation-Line-Sword-/181264113721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a342ee039)
For all you 14th century people who need a good war sword :)
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Albion-Steward-Next-Generation-Line-Sword-/181264113721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a342ee039 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Albion-Steward-Next-Generation-Line-Sword-/181264113721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a342ee039)
For all you 14th century people who need a good war sword :)
That same dude is also selling an Albion Regent and Albion Knight!
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If it weren't for all this armor and gambesons purchases in my future and the need for a feder and fencing mask for HEMA I would totally be bidding on this right now....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Albion-Steward-Next-Generation-Line-Sword-/181264113721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a342ee039 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Albion-Steward-Next-Generation-Line-Sword-/181264113721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a342ee039)
For all you 14th century people who need a good war sword :)
The current bid is also quite low for this sword.
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aye I am sure it will rise...alas no money for that...armor first!
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Belemrys,
Towards the bottom of this thread, Maxim of WildArmoury has a cool set of splinted arms and legs for sale done in tempered spring steel for a very good price. Might be worth looking at:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=166593 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=166593)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-nuOmHDPQVtM/UoqRNA1xCdI/AAAAAAAACpE/v6f1GuRgsUI/s400/IMG_4580.jpg)
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i love that look, but the knees and elbows are way over sized i think. i know its for sca purposes and it has to be that way but man i wish they were moer historical lol
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This is the Badass pics thread from the Armour Archive:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73637 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73637)
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Yeah Ian, I asked for measurements already...i think they might be too small to fit over tunics and gambeson and maile
Subject: WildArmoury sale. New item
Belemrys wrote:
MattMG wrote:
M.Suprovich wrote:
New stuff for sale!
Set of splinted arms and legs. 1,2mm tempered spring steel. Good fit on a man 180-200cm tall.
Price 400$ include shipping
Hello, I like these but I am picky about my fit, could I have some info? In CM is fine.
Length over biceps (armpit to inside elbow)
Length of forearm
Length over front of tibia
Length of cuisse from knee to inside
Length of cuisse from knee to outside
What he said! I am 196 cm tall but am quite thick
Hello.
There are measurements for splinted arms and legs:
Upper leg bigger circumference ~60-65cm
Upper leg smaller circumference ~45cm
Length of upper leg ~42cm
Lower leg bigger circumference ~42-48cm
Lower leg smaller circumference ~30-35cm
Length of lower leg ~35-37cm
Upper arm bigger circumference ~ 45-50cm
Length of upper arm ~24-26cm
Lower arm bigger circumference ~ 35-40cm
Lower arm smaller circumference ~ 25-28cm
Length of lower arm ~22-24cm
If you have any questions, ask me free.
Best regards
Maxim Suprovich
WildArmoury
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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Maxim is a good guy and does good work. The fitment should be specifically over gambeson only. For the arms, you might have a small bit of the sleeves in the upper arm, but the elbows/lower should not be covering any mail, the mail shirt will end around your bicep area or before the elbow. I *believe*, but ask Maxim to confirm, the upper arm is "open" style, in that it isn't an enclosed "tube", and straps closed, so it will have some play in how it fits over the haubergeon. It doesn't have to close completely. I can't remember if my splint upper arms even do or don't.
And $400 for tempered spring steel is a REALLY good deal for full set of arms and legs. I think I paid more than that just for stainless (which is NOT tempered and is heavier).
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I will check my measurements later (wife just got out if surgery) but pretty sure my thunder thighs will make it impossible. Last night at sca fighter practice no ones legs fit me :-/
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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So unfortunately those legs and arms are sold already :/
How do you guys feel about spring stainless from a historical point of view. Sir Ian said on facebook that spring stainless is closer to what was around back in the 14th century than say mild steel (I am assuming because of the tempering process?). Should I just take longer and get my kit made in Spring Steel?
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So unfortunately those legs and arms are sold already :/
How do you guys feel about spring stainless from a historical point of view. Sir Ian said on facebook that spring stainless is closer to what was around back in the 14th century than say mild steel (I am assuming because of the tempering process?). Should I just take longer and get my kit made in Spring Steel?
No no.... I said Spring Steel is closer to what they had historically... not spring stainless. Introducing chromium to steel to make it 'stainless' is in no way historic. Mild steel is also not close to historic steel.
Spring steel and spring stainless are not the same thing. I can't ever advocate any type of stainless steel for historical use. It's purely for convenience for the corrosion resistance.
Spring steel on the other hand can be hardened and tempered like the hardening processes used in good historic armor and best replicates what they were wearing. Modern cold rolled mild steel is by definition unable to be hardened and tempered like spring steel. It has to be made too thick and heavy to replicate the strength in properly heat treated spring steel.
But don't take it from me! Take it from Jeffrey Hedgecock, one of the world's finest armorer's:
Over my 25 year career so far, I have worked in all three materials; mild, spring and stainless, though of the pieces I've made, the fewest have been in stainless.
Where historical accuracy is concerned, although all three are modern alloys, only 1050 spring steel approximates better quality historical steels. Stainless is the least accurate because of one simple fact- it doesn't rust. There were no non-rusting steels historically.
Metallographic steel analysis and study by Alan Williams and Anthony deReuck suggests that 1050 spring steel is the closest modern equivalent to historical steel of above-average quality. That is, steel the best armours were made from.
In order of durability, low to high, that is "ability to resist impact" and return to original form, it goes mild steel, stainless, then spring steel of at least 40 points of carbon (when properly heat treated). Most armourers who know how to make historically correct armour (both in form and function) -don't- work in stainless, for a variety of reasons. I personally only work in spring steel now because with the amount of work I put into my pieces, I want them to last a good long time, and the best way to ensure that is to make them of 1050 spring and heat treat them well. I find mild too soft, even if work-hardened, and stainless is just plain too hard on the tools and my body, and doesn't yield a result I'm happy with, in color and overall "look". My experience has also suggested that generally speaking, the people who want stainless armour really aren't interested in properly maintaining their armour (hence the stainless), and I believe that for armour to function properly over time it should be regularly maintained and attended to. The people I have met that like stainless armour prefer avoiding all maintenance and repair whatsoever. For me, there's no such thing as "maintenance-free" armour.
I personally believe typical stainless steels (that doesn't include "spring stainless") will never approach the toughness and durability of spring steels like 1050. Typical stainless alloys just can't be heat treated like 1050 can, so will never be as tough. In my opinion, if you want armour that will handle hard use and last a long time, there is no better steel than 1050.
Cheers,
Jeffrey Hedgecock
Historic Enterprises, Inc.
WorldJoust Tournaments™
That's from this thread (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26328&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=) on MyArmoury.com
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Ah sorry, I didnt know spring stainless and spring steel were two different things. Is Spring Steel the same as Heat treated mild steel instead of CR mild?
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Yep, I've only gone with stainless so far on my newest sets of gaunts, and my fencing helms. Basically the items that I know are going to sit in sweaty gear bags. Going forward I really want to go with spring steel, for the reasons cited by Mr. Hedgecock.
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Ah sorry, I didnt know spring stainless and spring steel were two different things. Is Spring Steel the same as Heat treated mild steel instead of CR mild?
Any still with the addition of chromium is a stainless steel. Steer clear if you're going for historic.
Mild steel cannot be heat treated because it's carbon content is too low. Mild steel is a very soft variety of steel. There is no such thing as heat treated or hardened mild steel. You can work harden mild steel, which means that it gets a little harder by beating the crap out of it with a hammer, but it's still bendable.
Medium and high carbon steels can be heat treated. 1050 spring steel is off this variety. When a steel is heat treated, it's first heated to a high temperature and then quenched in oil or water to cool it rapidly. This realigns the structure of the steel and makes it very hard. The problem is that things that are very hard are usually brittle. Like glass, which is very hard, but shatters, so too will steel that has been quenched and left to be. If you hit steel in this state it will literally crack and/or shatter.
This is where tempering comes in. After steel has been hardened, it is then re-heated to a temperature not quite as high as the hardening temperature, and then allowed to cool very slowly. This softens the steel a little bit, relaxing some of the realignment caused by the hardening. This leaves the steel in a state that is both hard, but flexible. Spring steel is called 'spring' because when it flexes, it springs back to it's shape without bending. Mild steel on the other hand bends and stays that way. So, an armorer will shape spring steel to it's final shape, then harden, then temper. Then it will hold it's shape basically forever.
Properly formed spring steel that was finished by a capable armorer is also much more naturally corrosion resistant than mild steel. But like Jeff Hedgecock said, no armor (even stainless) is maintenance free.
TLDR: If you can pay for it, heat treated spring steel is worth the investment and the armorer's skill who can work with it.
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Sir Ian has covered the steels very well. I'll add a small summary here, since there are, roughly, 4 types of steel for armor. Heat treating refers specifically to "hardening" the steel. It can also be referred to as "case hardening". It is completely different from when you see someone heat up a piece of steel and start hitting it over the anvil or forms - in that case, they are heating it to soften the metal to a more workable state. Heat treating involves quenching, and makes the steel harder; the key is in slow cooling or fast cooling and how the steel reacts to it.
Mild Steel: $
Mild steel cannot be heat treated. It is the most affordable, easiest to work with, and most common kind to find on the market. Some european armorers may refer to it as "sheet iron" or "plate iron". Hot rolled and cold rolled refers to how it is processed into a sheet. Cold Rolled steel is preferential for armor since it is a harder steel than Hot Rolled of equal thickness; the heating softens the steel by some kind of chemical molecular wizardry stuff, and the armor made from it is softer because of that.
Stainless Steel: $$
Stainless steel cannot be heat treated - but - often needs to be heated during shaping since it "work hardens", in that shaping it makes the piece harden up a bit. This can lead to cracks if it isn't heated to re-soften it to a workable state. The primary differences are stainless steel in the same thickness is harder than mild steel, and is highly rust resistant.
Spring Steel: $$$$
Spring steel can be heat treated. It is from the addition of carbon in the steel. Sometimes called "high carbon steel" instead of "spring steel" too. As Sir Ian said, it's the closest thing to medieval steel you'll find within any normal person's price range.
Spring Stainless: $$$$$$$$
This is a relatively new steel on the market for armor. It's very expensive, very few people work with it, but it's the best steel you can get short of titanium-infused adamantium. It has the light weight of historical steel through it's capability to be used thinner than mild steel and still heat treated, and it is also highly rust resistant too. It's primary drawback is needing to take a home equity loan or sell internal organs to afford it.
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I think I have a spare kidney...it is amazing to see how prices vary from armorer to armorer.
The Surly Anvil (John Gruber) quoted me for a Bascinet and shovel visor, splinted arms, legs, greaves and shoulders and a COP (for some reason made of Spring instead of simple mild which really is all that is needed) about 6k and if I wanted fingered spring steel gauntlets 1500 more...
Mad Matt about 2k. Although maybe that didn't include the bascinet made of Spring Steel...but I cant see why that would raise the price that much more (It had a great helm in the quote instead of the bascinet and visor).
Anyone know a good place to get splinted spring steel armor?
Thanks,
Jorge
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Those price quotes seem about right. No offense to Mad Matt, but photo comparisons between his work and The Surly Anvil explain the difference in price. The Surly Anvil's pieces are much more historic in shape and line, and therefore considerably more difficult to craft. You're paying not only for the material and level of finishing, but the skill required to make these things. At the end of the day the people who make more historically shaped armor are always going to have what seem like significantly higher prices than the armorers who cater to the munitions market.
The Surly Anvil also does total fantasy pieces, but even on those the shaping and finishing is done to a much higher caliber.
As far as a good splinted spring armorer, 3 months ago I would have pointed you to Erik at Wintertree Crafts (http://www.wintertreecrafts.com/index.html), but he's on hiatus for a good long while. He only works in spring as far as I know, and pays attention to both historical shaping and the SCA requirements. But it's moot for the next 18 months.
**EDIT**
If JUST for splinted stuff, 6k is a bit high, that helmet alone could be around $2K + but if it's all splinted, that's still a bit steep. As we talked about on facebook, let us know when you get a line-item breakdown of a quote from him and we'll have a better feel for what that money is going to.
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My $0.02: If I had it to do over again I would have gotten the 12 ga mild instead of the 14 ga Stainless for my helm. Maintenance would have been easier and while Stainless is harder it doesn't flex as much and thus doesn't absorb energy as well.
I find that, for helms, Stainless is actually sub optimal for the same thickness, for in deformation there is energy absorption. My next helm won't be stainless, for even though there are only 4 dents in this hat after 4 years I would rather it had dented more. My head & neck would be happier.
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What about Anshelm? Clang? or Icefalcon?
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Aye I am going to send out some feelers and get an idea of the market for Spring Steel splinted armor set. Also going to talk with John Gruber on the phone and get a break down of his quote.
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I think I have a spare kidney...it is amazing to see how prices vary from armorer to armorer.
The Surly Anvil (John Gruber) quoted me for a Bascinet and shovel visor, splinted arms, legs, greaves and shoulders and a COP (for some reason made of Spring instead of simple mild which really is all that is needed) about 6k and if I wanted fingered spring steel gauntlets 1500 more...
Mad Matt about 2k. Although maybe that didn't include the bascinet made of Spring Steel...but I cant see why that would raise the price that much more (It had a great helm in the quote instead of the bascinet and visor).
Anyone know a good place to get splinted spring steel armor?
Thanks,
Jorge
I paid a bit over $2K for a spring steel leg harness (upper leg, greaves, sabatons). Doesn't include body, shoulders, arms, gauntlets or helmets, just the legs. Spring steel is expensive, no way in getting around that. As Sir Ian has said, if you're getting cheaper armor, it's likely due to less focus on historical lines, less experience in armoring, less refined pattern, etc - there are some exceptions, such as those making armor as a hobby are cheaper than those as a business - but that also tends to relate to the experience level as well. Generally speaking, like most things, you get what you pay for; it's up to you to decide what you want from the armor as far as quality, durability, accuracy, fitment, etc.
If you didn't talk directly to Mad Matt, prices on his site are way out of date. He hasn't updated it in at least a year, maybe more.
Aye I am going to send out some feelers and get an idea of the market for Spring Steel splinted armor set. Also going to talk with John Gruber on the phone and get a break down of his quote.
John Gruber at Surly Anvil is reasonably priced for spring steel work. Yes, it's expensive relative to mild steel - but that's still apples and oranges. He's also been making armor for quite a while, fights in armor he makes, and has good attention to historical details. I don't have any armor from him yet but have discussed something for when I've saved up enough later.
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Belemrys,
Towards the bottom of this thread, Maxim of WildArmoury has a cool set of splinted arms and legs for sale done in tempered spring steel for a very good price. Might be worth looking at:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=166593 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=166593)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-nuOmHDPQVtM/UoqRNA1xCdI/AAAAAAAACpE/v6f1GuRgsUI/s400/IMG_4580.jpg)
I been talking to Maxim and he seems to have very good prices and likes to do custom work to fit the effigy I want to use...I wonder what you guys have heard about him and his work...he does a lot of the work on wool instead of leather...which is historical but less lasting...he can do it in leather he says so it isnt a major problem or anything but yeah...he also said that for shoulders for the Schwarzburger effigy they arent really shown but he suggesting getting some like these: http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/943075_595992650419724_1620617555_n.jpg (http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/943075_595992650419724_1620617555_n.jpg)
It has an air about it that I like but not sure how it will mix with all the splinted stuff...it would have extra plates with it he said for protection...not sure what mechanism he is looking to employ and before I commit to anything I would want to see how it looks when worn...
Anyhow any reviews on Maxim and his work?
Here is an album of the splinted stuff he makes: https://www.facebook.com/maxim.suprovich/media_set?set=a.416423661709958.100894.100000269843814&type=3 (https://www.facebook.com/maxim.suprovich/media_set?set=a.416423661709958.100894.100000269843814&type=3)
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I've got a set of blackened spring steel legs from Maxim. Good stuff. I've also got a set of mild steel cuisses, arms, and pauldrons on the way. Shipped a week or two ago, but it's a gamble with when it will get delivered from the Ukraine. Sometimes it's a couple weeks, sometimes 8+ ... all depends on customs. Will let you know more when I get the armor.
His communication is great, even with the language barrier. Haven't fought in any of his armor, but articulation is good.
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Yeah, you'll see a lot of people on the AA whine about shipping from the Ukraine, but 99% of the time their beef is with US customs, not the Ukrainian shipper. I've had several items sent from overseas and have had minimal issue. I actually have an item from Poland that just cleared customs yesterday and it only took 2 days to process through.
USPS.com will now track international shipping labels also, so you can see exactly when it hits New York and how long they drag their asses. If you find an overseas dealer that will ship UPS or FedEx, those services have their own in-house customs inspection sites and they are much faster.
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Have any of you used age of craft? They have a set of splinted stuff that they use my exact effigy as the source. Except they don't have the fluted knee cops...if shipping were not such a big issue with armor I would want to piecemeal my set. Age of craft have spring steel cops for under 400 usd! But their other stuff is a bit more expensive...and their linen gambeson with sheep wool batting is only 95 usd!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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just a heads up with splinted armour. be mindful of rust. it is a lot harder to clean splints on leather. you will have a tendency to tear up the leather.
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just a heads up with splinted armour. be mindful of rust. it is a lot harder to clean splints on leather. you will have a tendency to tear up the leather.
One reason I went for stainless with my splint. :D
Carbon/spring steel doesn't seem to rust as quickly or badly as mild will.
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Bleh I am starting to rethink the whole Splinted Armor thing...it looks like armorers really don't care to work with leather and charge a premium for it...getting a steel set might be cheaper and provide better coverage/protection (the larger the piece of steel the less impact goes through and splints by definition are going to absorb less of the damage).
I think I might go look at some english effigies around the same time and to get the full steel arms and legs with maybe some leather cuisses and a leather CoP.
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the price on leather has sky rocketed here lately. its nuts
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the price on leather has sky rocketed here lately. its nuts
Ugh...don't I know it.
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Come to the "plate" side... we have... cookies.
(https://cdn1.iconfinder.com/data/icons/oxygen/22x22/emotes/face-devil-grin.png)
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But do you have any mead??? :) :P
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But do you have any mead??? :) :P
Of course! But it's dark.
(http://thefourfirkins.com/_uls/resources/dark_honey_mead.jpg)
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So I have bought 4 yards of Green and 4 yards of Gold Linen and 6 yards of Bamboo/Cotton blend batting to make my gambeson. Ian, I was thinking of doing something like your Charles de Blois pourpoint. I saw you have the pattern, by any chance is there online pdf I can download somewhere for free? Also the pattern would have to be for someone my size.
I found this pattern online but having spent over 120 bucks on materials already I am looking for a free option.
I also got through AA a sheet of mild steel which I will be using to make a CoP. Going to get some Green or Gold Wool (the opposite of whichever color i chose to make the gambeson) and some canvas and line with with linen on the inside and make myself a CoP wooooo :)
Also the wife is buying me armor this xmas. Gave her a short list of things....mostly from Al @ Merc Tailors...some simple knew and elbow cops with rondels, espauldiers and some boots from viking leather craft with vibram soles....lets see what I get under the christmas tree!
Little by little the kit will develop :)
And then start saving for Spring Steel stuff...plate or splinted...still torn!
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Jorge,
This is the pattern I bought:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/tasha-kelly/the-pourpoint-of-charles-de-blois/paperback/product-15326605.html (http://www.lulu.com/shop/tasha-kelly/the-pourpoint-of-charles-de-blois/paperback/product-15326605.html)
It's only $35, and it includes the patterns for a bunch of sizes (chest sizes 37-50). You just assemble and cut out the one that pertains to you. It's totally worth it. What I did was cut out my size pattern, build it in muslin, and then tweak the pattern, then I adjusted the paper pattern based on what I did to the muslin, and then cut my linen.
Tasha Kelly made the pattern (Tailoress on the AA). She's a class act, and helped me every step of the way when I had questions.
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Alas, 52-54 chest :(
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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Well, you could call it quits there, or you could probably extrapolate for a 52" chest by looking at the pattern and making adjustments when you build it in muslin first. A sewing pattern is really only a guideline. Once you build the muslin prototype you end up with a custom pattern anyway.
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Well, you could call it quits there, or you could probably extrapolate for a 52" chest by looking at the pattern and making adjustments when you build it in muslin first. A sewing pattern is really only a guideline. Once you build the muslin prototype you end up with a custom pattern anyway.
Yep. If your height is fine, just add consistent extra for the width. Build it bigger, trim it down to fit. Or make a pattern from scratch. If money is an issue, there's a few sites that have rough patterns but you'll have to template it out on cardboard yourself; or get the $35 one to have a head start, and just mark one side, then slide the template over more to account for that extra width (don't trace both sides in place, only one).
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I think I might just make my own pattern using her other tutorial http://cottesimple.com/tutorials/drafting-grande-assiette-upper-sleeve/ (http://cottesimple.com/tutorials/drafting-grande-assiette-upper-sleeve/)
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I've got a set of blackened spring steel legs from Maxim. Good stuff. I've also got a set of mild steel cuisses, arms, and pauldrons on the way. Shipped a week or two ago, but it's a gamble with when it will get delivered from the Ukraine. Sometimes it's a couple weeks, sometimes 8+ ... all depends on customs. Will let you know more when I get the armor.
His communication is great, even with the language barrier. Haven't fought in any of his armor, but articulation is good.
Updates?
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I've got a set of blackened spring steel legs from Maxim. Good stuff. I've also got a set of mild steel cuisses, arms, and pauldrons on the way. Shipped a week or two ago, but it's a gamble with when it will get delivered from the Ukraine. Sometimes it's a couple weeks, sometimes 8+ ... all depends on customs. Will let you know more when I get the armor.
His communication is great, even with the language barrier. Haven't fought in any of his armor, but articulation is good.
Updates?
Still waiting on the armor - likely held up in customs. Not unusual for overseas shipments. I'm usually pretty fast to snap pics of new armor and post them. :)
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you sir are circling the drain
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you sir are circling the drain
Not familiar with the phrase. What does that mean?
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So, an update on what I have right now for my kit. It obviously is GOING to be a 14th century kit that emulates Gunther von Schwarzburg but for now this is what I have until I decide between armorers who can make it (torn between Maxim from Wild Armory and Piotr Zacharski who has come recommended by a few people that do ACL).
Things I have:
* A stainless steel gorget - http://www.wintertreecrafts.com/misc/lobgorgets.jpg (http://www.wintertreecrafts.com/misc/lobgorgets.jpg) (I know it isnt historical but for SCA it is needed and I got a great deal...20 bucks only from Erik @ WTC. Mine is the bottom one in the pic)
* Mild Steel Elbow Cops with Rondels - http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=186902781 (http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=186902781) (don't officially have it yet but if the wife did her job I should have em for xmas or tomorrow for my bday!)
* Mild Steel Espauldiers - http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184415347 (http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184415347) (same as above....she had ONE job...get me armor for my bday/xmas!)
* Stainless steel loaner articulated legs while I make my gamboised cuisses soon! - https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1482855_10202075610165397_664522703_n.jpg (https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1482855_10202075610165397_664522703_n.jpg) (also have a weight lifting belt to hang them from until I make my gambeson with points)
*8 yards of Green/Gold linen to make my gambeson.
*6 yards of bamboo/cotton batting blend that breaths well for said gambeson. (Starting to cut out pattern this weekend out of a king size bedsheet i bought at a thrift store and see how well a mock up works. Then all through xmas the wife and I are making the gambeson. Pics as soon as we are done!)
*Heater Shield - Ordered from someone at my local SCA group for like $40 he is making me a plywood heater padded and strapped and ready for my lefty combat!
*Sheet of Mild Steel to make my CoP out of Wool. Talking to someone on AA about a couple of yards of 100% Green or Gold Wool to make the CoP. I think I am going to make the gambeson Gold and the CoP in Green. Down the line might get my splinted armor in green too and wear some golden chausses :)
Things I need to buy ASAP:
*Helmet - John Kellum - https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1380110_574694462599864_951480444_n.jpg (https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1380110_574694462599864_951480444_n.jpg) (not sure if you guys can see it but it is a blackened bascinet for $150 that is a basic starter combat helm. Just something to hold me off until I get a better one with a riveted aventail etc...)
* Rattan to make my weapon!
*Vambraces and rerebraces of some sort!
*Greaves
*Period shoes (my engineer boots look okay and have great ankle protection/support but still dont look the part or work with sabatons I want to get eventually)
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The shoe's and Rattan are easy buys. You're located in the east right?
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The shoe's and Rattan are easy buys. You're located in the east right?
Atlantia, I was looking at Frank for the 14th century lace boots...also like his cuisses belt...might be a nice way to avoid straining the fabric of my gambeson.
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Gambeson or CdB Pourpoint > Cuisse belt
I have a cuisse belt ("C belt") in the closet. Never wore it outside of the house. Wasn't comfortable enough.
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If that doesn't work for shoes try Bohemond or Amlann.
For rattan try Icefalcon Armoury or http://shop.mastereirik.com/main.sc (http://shop.mastereirik.com/main.sc)
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Any thoughts on a Corazzina vs CoP? I think for a German 14th century kit CoP is more appropriate but any chance that would get by? I like the look of a Corazzina...man now I want 2 14th century kits...one german and one italian...hate you guys! GAH!
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Any thoughts on a Corazzina vs CoP? I think for a German 14th century kit CoP is more appropriate but any chance that would get by? I like the look of a Corazzina...man now I want 2 14th century kits...one german and one italian...hate you guys! GAH!
This comes entirely down to years you want your kit to represent.
This graph represents a sampling of German effigies by body defense type vs time period. A corrazina could be represented by what Dr. Strong refers to here as either 'Rounded' or 'Globose'. So if you're looking at anything prior to the 1350's you're in a COP. Anything 1350's to 1360's it's shooter's choice, COP, Corrazina, or a single piece globose breastplate. In to the 1370's the COP appears to go the way of the dodo for German effigies.
(http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/Germany%20Body.jpg)
http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/German-Effigies.htm (http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/German-Effigies.htm)
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Nice my kit was falling under 1351-1364...back to the drawing board! Gah!
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http://effigiesandbrasses.com/3099/2489/ (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/3099/2489/)
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/johann_iii_von_rappoltstein_s235_r5140_large.jpg)
Any thoughts on this effigy? It is expensive to replicate in spring steel but would be safer than splinted armor. I can't find any information on the subject of the effigy. His name seems german but it is found in france. Anyone have any ideas or experience with the effigy and his armor? It seems really advanced for 1361...everything is articulated and particularly interesting is his chest armor...is that a brigandine? or a corrazina?
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His name seems german but it is found in france. Anyone have any ideas or experience with the effigy and his armor? It seems really advanced for 1361...everything is articulated etc...
Well that's because it's in Alsace. Alsace was part of the Holy Roman Empire until it was annexed by France in the 17th century ;-)
The leg harness is pretty standard for 1360's. For whatever reason the leg harness evolved faster than the arm harness, which wasn't commonly fully articulated until about a decade or two later depending on where you are. Armor tended to be slower to catch on in Germany, but even in the 1360's a fully articulated leg harness can be seen on roughly 50% of surviving German effigies. Comparable arm harnesses would be much more rare in the 1360's, so his articulated arms are pretty cutting edge for his time.
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Any idea on the chest armor Ian? Looks like a Brigandine...
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remember the guys that could afford most of this were on horse. and where's the easiest thing to hit on a horseman by a foot solider? his legs. i reckon the upper arms weren't developed due to the "downward swing?" of the horseman? maybe dunno.
i dont think its a brig. brigs aren't developed until really the 1450s i think.
it almost looks like a padded jupon or quilted gambeson
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remember the guys that could afford most of this were on horse. and where's the easiest thing to hit on a horseman by a foot solider? his legs. i reckon the upper arms weren't developed due to the "downward swing?" of the horseman? maybe dunno.
i dont think its a brig. brigs aren't developed until really the 1450s i think.
it almost looks like a padded jupon or quilted gambeson
So he would have been wearing a Corazzina or CoP underneath as there isnt a larger shape under the jupon/gambeson?
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If you look carefully at the effigy, at just above above his waist you see the outline starting to bow out. I suspect there's some sort of globose protection underneath, be it a pair of plates (corrazina) or a solid breastplate. That's the problem with understanding the early cuirass. In the 14th century virtually all torso protection is covered, making it impossible to tell exactly what's worn underneath except by general outline.
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remember the guys that could afford most of this were on horse. and where's the easiest thing to hit on a horseman by a foot solider? his legs. i reckon the upper arms weren't developed due to the "downward swing?" of the horseman? maybe dunno.
i dont think its a brig. brigs aren't developed until really the 1450s i think.
it almost looks like a padded jupon or quilted gambeson
^ this. Aside from helmets, of which most don't articulate, the leg defense and body defense were the two to advance the fastest, torso being vital to protect (lookin' at you, archers!), and lower legs being more likely to be struck by anyone on the ground. Arms needed the most mobility since they wield weapons, were less likely to be struck, and have a wider range of motion than legs do.
If you look carefully at the effigy, at just above above his waist you see the outline starting to bow out. I suspect there's some sort of globose protection underneath, be it a pair of plates (corrazina) or a solid breastplate. That's the problem with understanding the early cuirass. In the 14th century virtually all torso protection is covered, making it impossible to tell exactly what's worn underneath except by general outline.
Seconded. That's not a "natural" place for the garment to hang inward like that without some form of solid protection underneath giving that shape.
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why not? can't we all have hour glass figures? you all be hatin!
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why not? can't we all have hour glass figures? you all be hatin!
I suppose it's vaguely possible, but you'd have to be very emaciated to have that high of a "hourglass" silhouette as a male. And I doubt someone with that kind of build would be able to wear plate and battle, too.
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So I am looking at buying the sugarloaf in this thread: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=2577671#p2577671 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=2577671#p2577671)
He offered it to me for $200...sounded a bit desperate...and he doesn't have a reputation of someone like Maxim or Tengushin so I am a bit wary of sending him all my money without ready reviews....I PM'd the other guy who supposedly bought it and he saw the message but hasnt responded.
Worth the risk?
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Isn't a sugarloaf a bit early for your kit?
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Two kits! I will post updates...splinted armor 1345-50 kit with sugarloaf and knee length heraldic tabard....then 1380 full plate articulated joints with jupon and visored basinet....that is more long term as it is beyond my skill to make :)
I have the metal for splints and bought the leather etc...the corrazina will go into the 2nd kit and making a CoP for this kit.
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Even then, sugarloafs are squarely centered around the 1290's, early 1300's. Effigies from the 1340's are virtually all bascinets. There are a few manuscripts dated to the mid 1300's that depict sugarloafs, but they're dating often spans huge swaths, like 1300-1350, so they're not very precisely dated at all. Sugarloafs, if in use at that time would be very old-fashioned for a Knight. You would most certainly be talked about behind your back at court :) lol
If you're going for historical accuracy, I would maybe try to pass it off that this was your father's helm, and yours is being repaired. Just remember, knights were the 1% of their time. ;)
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The other guy who buy a helm from this Armorer got back to me with this msg:
I did get a tracking number. Haven't gotten the helmet yet.
https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction.action?tRef=fullpage&tLc=1&text28777=&tLabels=CP180020083UA (https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction.action?tRef=fullpage&tLc=1&text28777=&tLabels=CP180020083UA)
The tracking says it went THROUGH US customs on April 3rd....not sure why it hasn't gotten to him yet...but hey at least he sent something through customs!
Yeah it would have been very old fashioned for a sugarloaf in the 1350...maybe I need to see how far back I can date splinted armor with floating cops...I bet I can get around the 1325 date for the sculpture at Bargello Palace in Florence posted below. I will definitely need to look into more chain...probably a hauberk and mail chausses....then get a haubergon for the late 14th century kit....
(http://www.myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_spot_ghelm17.jpg)
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Looks like the helmet is out for delivery! So I am waiting for the owner of the helm to give me a review but if all goes well Friday I am ordering my sugarloaf!
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So I decided to get a visored basinet. The guy who was making the sugarloaf actually worked with Jollyknight before, he sent me some links of his work and he looks like he knows what he is doing...gave me a great price for the bascinet...making it from 10g Mild for the sake of the SCA game it is important to have a heavy helmet to reduce head injury.
I definitely am going to talk to him about some other commissions down the line!
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I recently got a visored sugarloaf too; 14 gauge mild steel painted black with brass cross trim. I actually like it. It is good for early 1300's kit.
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My sugar load is a 16G with a cross.
It was from ebay under 100 bucks.
There are dents here and there(Durability Testing, proved....Unsuccessful)
But I think it is really nice looking from 4 ft. or further.
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So I have spent a long time collecting soft kit stuff while I wait for my helmet to get here and for me to finish my splinted armor... Yesterday I got my braies, chausses (linen since it is so hot in NC) and an undershirt based on the Louis...
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/18/2apequve.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/18/duqanyje.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/18/8a6u6egy.jpg)
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So I have spent a long time collecting soft kit stuff while I wait for my helmet to get here and for me to finish my splinted armor... Yesterday I got my braies, chausses (linen since it is so hot in NC) and an undershirt based on the Louis...
Looks really good! If you can, cinch your hose up higher on the hips so they pull tight. They should sit smooth on the leg. If they're too big along the length of the leg an easy way to fix them is put them on inside-out, pinch along the seem to gather up the excess, pin them in place to get a nice fit, then sew right up the pin line and you've got custom fit hose. Then a garter below each knee to keep them smooth on the calf. Just make sure you leave enough room for your foot to go through since linen does not stretch like wool.
For attaching the hose there's a lot of evidence for a braies girdle, or a belt that holds up the braies and serves as a good point to attach the hose. There's a big discussion on the AA going on about braies girdles and hose attachment right now. You may want to experiment. Some people find that when they tie their hose up tight to a draw-string on the braies that it pulls your braies down. I plan on making a braies girdle to try it out and see if it works better.
And wool is not automatically hotter than linen, it's all dependent on the weight of the fabric. HE's wool hose are a nice thin wool, very breathable and fine for hot weather. All natural fibers, be them wool or linen or even cotton breathe unlike synthetics.
Here's Mac's braies girdle (note how high they sit). The thinking now is they're going to start experimenting with a belt inside the casing of the braes that also has the ability to attach hose via points or brooches like on Mac's example:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6-B6P1l9dJU/TfakZ33JhFI/AAAAAAAAABM/Vqa4XaAZZFg/s400/SDC13824.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eSEtk4e-oxs/Tfalre1J8eI/AAAAAAAAABU/cnzRTbY6opA/s400/SDC13830.JPG)
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My problem is my thighs... For squating or kneeling I need lots of space...so the will always have to be a bit loose up top...I plan to make garters for the calves but alas even at that fit it is just a tad tight when I squat...
As for girdles I saw the thread and besides seeing too much of Macs private areas it is a great read. I might try a girdle but found these braies to hold up fine just walking around...and my undershirt is plenty long as is my g63 tunic in case I have decide to share some crack from time to time ;)
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I will definitely to to pull em up as far up as I can though!
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I've always done the drawstring thing too, but after 12 hrs and re-tightening several times the drawstring eventually gets very uncomfortable. I'm going to experiment with the belt option as well.
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For attaching the hose there's a lot of evidence for a braies girdle, or a belt that holds up the braies and serves as a good point to attach the hose. There's a big discussion on the AA going on about braies girdles and hose attachment right now.
Is this it? http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=172174&hilit=braies (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=172174&hilit=braies)
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For attaching the hose there's a lot of evidence for a braies girdle, or a belt that holds up the braies and serves as a good point to attach the hose. There's a big discussion on the AA going on about braies girdles and hose attachment right now.
Is this it? http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=172174&hilit=braies (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=172174&hilit=braies)
That thread yes, and the thread it references which is this one:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=135302&hilit=hose+belt (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=135302&hilit=hose+belt)
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those are nice and it is beginning to look good...I for one am glad I am a mongol cause that would just take me to long to armor up...right now I can armor up pretty fast and have very loose fitting clothes, cause I like you need a lot of room!! :)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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So I just got this message from the armorer who made my helmet:
"July 27, 2014 , 7:22 pm
Processed Through Sort Facility
ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS)"
So excited!
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Awesome! Just a few days now! Post plenty of pics!
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UPDATE: My helmet was sent back to Ukraine and then he resent it when he received in December...this time using "Express Air Mail"
I just received it today. Here is a mini-review!
Okay, so it looks like it was sent via air mail December 9th 2014. It is a great helmet...the shape is even better than I hoped! It lines up on my eyes perfectly and had the satin finish I asked for...
Now the bad parts...
It has lots of surface rust...probably due to being shipped in a bag vs a box? Being wrapped in plastic instead of a textile that would keep the oil rather than evaporating surely didn't help...it has been almost 4 months so can't expect it to not have some rust.
It is a tad tight and I wish the period liner was sewn in and not riveted across the the whole helmet. The weld is a bit unsightly but you have to lift up the liner to see it.
The aventail he told me he was gifting me was not in the package.
The bargrill I paid for was not in the package.
Honestly if I had my bar grill and not quite so much surface rust I would be VERY satisfied...I have to check with some calipers to see if it is the right gauge...also need to see how heavy it is...but looks plenty safe for SCA :)
Now to get a scotch brite pad and go at it for an hour or two...
Here is a link to the pictures I took with my phone (don't worry Sir William I have made it a public album for you :)):
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10101411235749228.1073741828.18723854&type=1&l=d8d9238f9c (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10101411235749228.1073741828.18723854&type=1&l=d8d9238f9c)
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Nice! When will you have the aventail on?
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Excellent!
Armor stretches as dished and worked, so a helmet that started as 10 gauge steel sheet may be only 12 gauge in finished form.
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Thorsteinn he didn't send it :(
Brucer on AA says maybe Dmitiry mixed our orders and sent him my bar grill and aventail...
I went to home depot and got a sanding block and some 400 grit and 800 grit...800 was too fine...took off the rust but messed up the polish so I took some 400 and with my hand fixed the polish a bit. Here are some pics of where it is after 45 min or so...I will oil it up and go at it with a fresh 400 grit strip to properly even the polish back to the original polish :)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/20/4d38d074343ced8272d8923921fbe1b3.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/20/eb8519a7d90da125164254bda0c2f94f.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/20/92fe79f67102be38b256abf143c55c2b.jpg)
Vs
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/20/83049d9e30ba63ff149b60d37e024c19.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/20/346705b0f6ba4a4ca724ee49613d4bf1.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/20/8335fc3c3dac8b9edcab28472b1ac842.jpg)
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Just spoke to Dimitry and he is going to send me an aventail and bar grill!
Here is where I am on cleaning up the helm...mostly done :)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/21/8fb3570e28d71af2a785c8b9a5d98e8c.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/21/b6aee8b3adbaf9ab0a0d61ec68818e16.jpg)
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How's he going to fit a bargrill to a helmet he doesn't have? Or did he build it already and just forget to send it?
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I think it is the latter...he sold to someone on AA the same helmet so maybe he got confused when setting up the order? Not sure...I hope it works out.
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Nice
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Since you'll be so imposing in that kit; the first time on the field will you walk forward and say "Everybody... MOVE!!!" just for kicks?
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That's a sweet lid you have there, Jorge. Nice acquisition!
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Thorsteinn, in LARP yes...in SCA, probably not...too many dukes in my neck of the woods...and they all know me and my device lol
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Great job cleaning it up. Looks good! And that visor spring pin for safety is a great idea. ;)
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Nice job!! It does look good from this angle. :) Can I be the first opponent to take a 'waster' to it?? 8) Just saying. lol
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Looks great, Jorge!