ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Jason Simonds on 2013-10-22, 16:31:57
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As many of you may know I am in the process of redesigning my whole Knightly Persona. This is to include new Heraldry, of which I have completed the new design.
I have started already with a new tabard, which has made its debut the final day of MDRF.
Now to start building my new kit. I have decided to go with somewhere in the 13th Century using a Great helmet, Maile of the flat riveted variety, pauldrons, bracers and greaves.
Now to find the parts and put them together...
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I caught that...nicely done, Jason. If you're looking for quality armor at a really good price, I'd look no further than Allan of Mercenary's Tailor. He has a new website, but I don't know what it is offhand. I bet one of the other knights knows it, though. It was great seeing you, albeit briefly- which was my bad.
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Your new surcoat looked great! :)
It being of the longer variety should fit in nicely with your target armor period. A couple of aspects to consider is early or late 13th (i.e. 1200 – 1300), the later part of the century really showing the acceleration of the transitional armor from maille to plate. Yet if you opt for a full hauberk you could add pieces onto it. Something I do not think I’ve seen much of is genuine Cuir Boulli (boiled leather) which would have been a likely predecessor to steel cops and perhaps even greaves, although that period was predominantly maille chausses.
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One thing I want to note-- plate armor is decidedly a 14th century sort of thing. With a great helm and longer surcoat, you're looking at the earlier half of the 14th to mix those elements with plate or transitional armor. Prior to 1300 (the 12th century), the armor was almost entirely mail, and the plate components would be limited to knees, ailettes, coats of plates, etc, and not pauldrons or breastplates.
Just pointing this out as an "adjustment" to the years. You're thinking 14th century, not 13th. :)
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Allan's new site is http://merctailor.webs.com/ (http://merctailor.webs.com/)
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Start with a plan and good arming garments. As Sir Ed described, your envisioned kit is not from the 13th century. So decide which century you're really after, or decide to do a fantasy kit. Either way, once you decide what type of armor you want to wear, before you purchase a single piece of it, I highly recommend squaring away the arming garments first. With bad arming garments you can have the nicest most expensive custom made harness on the planet and it will not function or be comfortable.
If you're interested in trying to be historically accurate, please ask and we will guide you properly. You may be surprised what really belongs with what from a historical standpoint. If you want to go fantasy, then the sky's the limit.
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I am definitely trying to stay away from Fantasy as much as possible. I am going for more period correct. That being said, thou we may not have proof, various combinations of armor were more than likely worn due to costs for the lower knights. So I am not looking to go full set of plate armor or full matching kits at this time due to the same issue. But I am looking at the more than likely this would have been worn style kits.
As stated before I want to start with the Great Helm and work from there. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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I am definitely trying to stay away from Fantasy as much as possible. I am going for more period correct. That being said, thou we may not have proof, various combinations of armor were more than likely worn due to costs for the lower knights. So I am not looking to go full set of plate armor or full matching kits at this time due to the same issue. But I am looking at the more than likely this would have been worn style kits.
As stated before I want to start with the Great Helm and work from there. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
What style of great helm? That will determine era and pretty much everything else if you want to build it around a particular helm you have in mind. Just be forewarned, if you're interested in historically accurate kit, going down the 'this might have been worn together' path is very dangerous and is not really a valid way of doing something with accuracy. In period, there's really no such thing as the elusive 'poor knight' or 'not so wealthy knight.' If you were a knight in period, you were rich by modern standards. If you want to do a yeoman man-at-arms kit, then you can maybe put together a more piecemeal kit. That's all fine, but if you want to stick to something that is historically correct, then you may find combinations of things you envision are not combinations of things that can be justified as historical. I'm an accuracy nut when it comes to my own kit, and I will not blow smoke up anyone's *@! when it comes to trying to do things the historical way. I'll tell it like it is to the best of my knowledge. All that being said, having a historically accurate kit with as little concession to inaccuracy as possible is a very rewarding path to go down. You just have to be prepared for the work involved.
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All that being said, having a historically accurate kit with as little concession to inaccuracy as possible is a very rewarding path to go down. You just have to be prepared for the work involved.
And the time and expense as well which can be prohibitive in of itself. Yet Sir Ian is absolutely correct in that if you want to be as historically accurate as possible then it would take less time and resources if you select a more specific timeline. Even a landless 'household knight' would be far better equipped than a man-at-arms as it would be fitting his noble stature since he would essentially be a token of his liege's greatness by living off his bounty.
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I think I am going to do a bit more research so I can pinpoint a timeline or 2, that can easily work together by modifying a couple items.
Right now I am looking at a similar style of Great helm as to what Sir Ed and Sir Brian wear.
http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-4418-crusader-great-helmet.aspx (http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-4418-crusader-great-helmet.aspx)
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what you need is a library day at Sir Edwards.
I think he has all (if not I do) the Osprey Men at Arms, Warrior, etc small books to look at for ideas. I like this books cause of the larger pictures and are a great jumping off point for your research.
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I was actually thinking of going to the book store today to look and see if they have any good reference material to look at. I will keep that series in mind when I go.
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If you really want to 'gnat's ass' a great helm of that style for accuracy, skip the brass ocular, and the shaping is off and that particular one you linked. The brass ocular is a modern invention to mimic the gilded oculars seen in contemporary artwork, which was really paint or gold leafing in period.
That particular style of great helm is generally inspired by the surviving 'Dargen Helm' dated to the second half of the 13th century.
Here's the original:
(http://www.liebaart.org/helm/dargen2.jpg)
Here's a very good reproduction:
http://royaloakarmoury.com/medieval_armour_gallery.php?iden=1 (http://royaloakarmoury.com/medieval_armour_gallery.php?iden=1)
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/534808_476786739017582_1062350633_n.jpg)
Here's a slightly later period great helm of the sugarloaf style (think ca. 1300) that uses real brass leaf over steel instead of cheating with a brass ocular.
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1239873_691843827511871_306406812_n.jpg)
Both of those reproductions are by Jeffrey Hildebrandt, who coincidentally did Sir Ulrich's Dargen Helm reproduction with a beautiful aging effect on it, and he will tell you, he wasted a lot of money on lesser helms, and you will end up disappointed and replacing it later anyway if historical accuracy is important to you. With armor it's worth investing in what you really want.
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You also want to spend a lot of time looking at actual effigies to get an idea of what was really being worn together:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/ (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/)
Use the search function on that site to look at small snippets of time and locations to get an accurate visual on what knight's would be wearing.
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Yep, my style of great-helm (that I usually take to the renfaire) is really a 1270-1300 style. For use with plate armor, getting into the early-mid 1300's (14th century), it should be one of the dome-topped great helms, such as a "Pembridge" great helm.
For reference, look at the one I'm carrying here: (click to zoom) (I'm planning to use this one more, once I get a crest together for it)
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2012/dok-misc/b3882.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2012/dok-misc/b3882b.jpg)
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Another consideration is how much you're willing to fudge things or cut corners, for the sake of ease or cost-savings. My mid-14th century kit (in the photo above) was relatively cheap to get started, since I went with MercTailer arms and legs, which are very functional, but save on costs by not replicating all of the subtleties in how 14th century armor was shaped.
I also cheated on the breastplate, which is a GDFB breastplate with the plackart removed, so it looks kinda like a globose breastplate, but also lacks the details.
I'm still working on getting the new surcoat/jupon/whatever made, and figuring out what I want for sabatons and greaves, and again I'll probably cheap-out on those.
Properly made greaves alone can cost $1500 or more.
But since you want some plate with a great helm, you're looking fairly early in the plate-armor part of the 14th century. The good news is that it's simpler and cheaper than a lot of the other options out there.
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With plate armor, I don't recommend skimping or cutting corners solely because it will not function properly and will ultimately be very uncomfortable. And no offense Sir Ed, but greaves and sabs are probably the two worst pieces to skimp on because they will make life miserable if they don't function right, and if they're not high quality, they won't function right. Also, you're not spending $1500 on cased greaves if you opt to get them in mild steel as opposed to hardened spring steel.
If you want to do a mostly maille harness with plate pieces like was common when plate was first starting to be invented, you can get very high quality plate for not too much money because of the pieces you'd need. Basically, elbow cops, knee cops, and maybe schybalds (front half of greaves, which don't require nearly the same engineering and skill as fully cased greaves). You can get out the door with a VERY good living history quality kit of the circa 1300 AD variety for considerably less money than a plate harness.
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Those are some good points. I'm still thinking of going with Halberds' sabs for mine, since they're "close enough" but not junk. But I don't want to detail Jake's thread here.
There's a lot of room in the 14th century to pick exactly what sort of combination you want, since the century started with almost no plate, and ended with very complex plate.
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I was actually thinking of going to the book store today to look and see if they have any good reference material to look at. I will keep that series in mind when I go.
The Osprey books are fantastic. I also cast my recommendation for them. ;D Another good one is Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight (http://www.amazon.com/Arms-Armor-Medieval-Knight-Illustrated/dp/0517103192/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382628772&sr=8-1&keywords=arms+and+armor+of+the+medieval+knight) by David Edge. It has a lot of really nice pictures of period manuscripts and effigies, as well as a few photographs of actual surviving pieces. Lots of good information, too, and the chapters are broken down by century.
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I was browsing at the effigies and a common theme, for late 1200's to late 1300's, that i see is what appears to be Chain mail all the way down to the boot. Maybe the chain is affixed to the boot as one piece like booted pants or separate legs?? Later in the 1300's you start to see more plate pieces, like knee cops and greaves. I think i will check into the Osprey series books as well as see what i can find on written accounts of armor worn through the ages.
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I was browsing at the effigies and a common theme, for late 1200's to late 1300's, that i see is what appears to be Chain mail all the way down to the boot. Maybe the chain is affixed to the boot as one piece like booted pants or separate legs?? Later in the 1300's you start to see more plate pieces, like knee cops and greaves. I think i will check into the Osprey series books as well as see what i can find on written accounts of armor worn through the ages.
That's accurate. 13th century kit is primarily a maille hauberk (knee length top and long sleeves), and maille chausses (the leggings), and maille coif (hood). Under that would be a gambeson, similar to the nice one Jessica Finley made for Sir Ed. And then you cover it with a nice long heraldic surcoat and top it with a great helm.
By the late 13th and early 14th, you start to see plate elbows, knees and schynbalds starting to get strapped over that while the shape of the great helm evolves a bit.
Osprey disclaimer, some are great resources, some are abysmal. Osprey's just the publisher, some of their authors and artists are really great, but there are some who are blatantly terrible and inaccurate. Compare what you're seeing in the Osprey books to the effigies of the same period to make sure what you're looking at is somewhat accurate.
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The nice thing about early transitional is you can start by doing arming garments, then mail. The plate needs to be worn over the mail, so the plate portion is irrelevant for a while, as you'll need measurements *over* the mail anyway. Once you have your time frame narrowed down, focus on the garments first, then mail.
Also, you can get Osprey books off Amazon. I got 10 or so of them from there.
Most chausses I've seen are like a long stocking. I need to trim mine around the feet, but they are otherwise complete. I have some "mail time" set aside this weekend to work on that and my hauberk tailoring. In testing at home - no actual long-term wearing yet - I found it easiest to put on the chausses, tie the feet/lower up out of the way, put the shoes on, then let the mail back down. It would be tied down after.
I sent Ulrich a few messages about it on FB, but I have a plan that essentially involves using some black leather trim on the inside of the chausses to have some quick and dirty, easy to tie on chausses w/feet. I'll post pics next week if I get at least one foot done this weekend.
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Sir James,
From what I have seen from the Effigies, it looks as if the chausses are attached to the footwear by lacing under the boot or connected directly to the boot, and then secured around the ankle and heel by way of either lacing or spurs. I would assume that a pair of leggings of some sort would have been worn underneath?? You know to keep stuff protected as well..
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Sir James,
From what I have seen from the Effigies, it looks as if the chausses are attached to the footwear by lacing under the boot or connected directly to the boot, and then secured around the ankle and heel by way of either lacing or spurs. I would assume that a pair of leggings of some sort would have been worn underneath?? You know to keep stuff protected as well..
The leggings worn beneath maille are typically lightly padded and quilted chausses. Kind of like a gambeson for your legs.
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Exactly what Sir Ian said.
Spurs would certainly help hold it in place. My spurs used to hold the back of my sabatons in place before I added a separate strap, in case I didn't feel like tripping myself constantly.
Dr Metz has a great picture of the lacing beneath his shoe, but I don't have it on hand. Flat soled shoes mean you'll be walking on lacing all day, so it will wear out a bit faster. I like the lugged soles (modern soles) since it's not really visible, and you can "nest" the lacing inside of the lugs a bit. Again, still an "at home" prototype, but seems promising.
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Well I am thinking at this point I need to find some good resourses on arming garments so I can work on those as well. At this point I think i will start looking into chainmail. Perhaps something that can work well over an extended time range.
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Exactly what Sir Ian said.
Spurs would certainly help hold it in place. My spurs used to hold the back of my sabatons in place before I added a separate strap, in case I didn't feel like tripping myself constantly.
Dr Metz has a great picture of the lacing beneath his shoe, but I don't have it on hand. Flat soled shoes mean you'll be walking on lacing all day, so it will wear out a bit faster. I like the lugged soles (modern soles) since it's not really visible, and you can "nest" the lacing inside of the lugs a bit. Again, still an "at home" prototype, but seems promising.
Period correct footwear with a flat sole will not cause problems with a strap. Most inexpensive reproduction period footwear uses leather on the bottom that is too thick, and that does cause problems. Real period footwear has a very supple sole and puts no pressure on the arch of the foot, so as long as you don't have flat feet, the strap of a spur should basically occupy the space under the arch of your foot. It's more like walking barefoot than in a shoe. Nice soft flexible soles on good reproduction period footwear will help eliminate the problem that Sir James is describing. We as modern folk are used to a hard sole, so it takes getting used to, but period footwear was designed to be soft so that you could feel and grip the ground with your foot and not slip. The problem is generally that good period footwear is hard to find or expensive, or both. Mass produced period footwear is not good period footwear.
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Agreed on the footwear, Sir Ian, and you're spot on in where the strap sits, in the arch of the foot, with sabatons. With chausses, it's a little different since the lacing travels the length of the foot in multiple spots, and not just under the arch. I dug up the link to Dr Metz's photo to show what I'm talking about:
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4029/4300825325_88f06e82ca_z.jpg?zz=1)
I think lugged soles are a good option for that. On my shoes for the sabatons, I knocked off the lugs where the strap passes under. Lacing should fit between without needing to do anything to the soles.
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Period correct footwear with a flat sole will not cause problems with a strap. Most inexpensive reproduction period footwear uses leather on the bottom that is too thick, and that does cause problems. Real period footwear has a very supple sole and puts no pressure on the arch of the foot, so as long as you don't have flat feet, the strap of a spur should basically occupy the space under the arch of your foot. It's more like walking barefoot than in a shoe. Nice soft flexible soles on good reproduction period footwear will help eliminate the problem that Sir James is describing. We as modern folk are used to a hard sole, so it takes getting used to, but period footwear was designed to be soft so that you could feel and grip the ground with your foot and not slip. The problem is generally that good period footwear is hard to find or expensive, or both. Mass produced period footwear is not good period footwear.
I don't mean to derail the thread here, but on this note, how are the shoes from Viking Leathercrafts? I've heard nothing but good things about them and was planning on getting a pair sometime soon.
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Frank does excellent work!
If you happen to have wide feet though, make sure you specify that when you order them so he can make the necessary adjustments. When I recently received my new knight jousting boots they were standard width which is way too narrow for my flipper-like feet. Yet when I contacted him via email he readily replied and suggested I pour some rubbing alcohol into them and wear them around a bit to stretch them out and man that worked like a charm because now they fit perfectly! :)
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Period correct footwear with a flat sole will not cause problems with a strap. Most inexpensive reproduction period footwear uses leather on the bottom that is too thick, and that does cause problems. Real period footwear has a very supple sole and puts no pressure on the arch of the foot, so as long as you don't have flat feet, the strap of a spur should basically occupy the space under the arch of your foot. It's more like walking barefoot than in a shoe. Nice soft flexible soles on good reproduction period footwear will help eliminate the problem that Sir James is describing. We as modern folk are used to a hard sole, so it takes getting used to, but period footwear was designed to be soft so that you could feel and grip the ground with your foot and not slip. The problem is generally that good period footwear is hard to find or expensive, or both. Mass produced period footwear is not good period footwear.
I don't mean to derail the thread here, but on this note, how are the shoes from Viking Leathercrafts? I've heard nothing but good things about them and was planning on getting a pair sometime soon.
The boots from Viking Leathercrafts are just the Westland Crafts boots which are mass produced in Pakistan and re-sold by Frank. He doesn't make them. Frank's a great guy and business man, but most of the shoes he sells are not just the Westland stuff. I've used them for years, and they're more than adequate. I would replace the giant thongs of leather that they ship with for laces, but they're fine. They are mass produced they and do not really mimic period footwear, but they look the part.
Real medieval footware reproductions can be had from the following:
http://www.plantagenetshoes.co.uk/cat13_14.aspx (http://www.plantagenetshoes.co.uk/cat13_14.aspx)
http://home.comcast.net/~meisterdru/shoes.htm (http://home.comcast.net/~meisterdru/shoes.htm)
http://www.np-historicalshoes.com/home.php?lang=en (http://www.np-historicalshoes.com/home.php?lang=en)
But they are expensive and made to order.
Regardless, for wear under a sabaton, you ideally want side-laced shoes so that things like buckles, or top laces don't interfere with a properly close-fitted piece of armor. There's more leeway with maille foot coverings on the ends of chausses though.
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I've been happy with my Viking Leathercrafts shoes. For the price, you get a nice period-looking shoe.
Personally, I like them with the lugged soles. It's a modern sole, of course, but since I fight in them, and wear them to renfaires with variable terrain and hills, the traction is a safety feature for me.
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Great info for proper footwear, something for me to look into.
I have decided to start working on patterning out garments to be made for my future kit. So now what i am looking for is references for period correct, or close to, patterns for items like:
Padded arming Caps, Gambesons, Pourpoints, Chauses, and any other garments that i don't have listed.
Thanks again for the help.
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Sir Jason, a great book to help you get started on some of the more mundane garments is the Medieval Taylor's Assistant. Check it out on amazon, may be worth your consideration.
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For patterns, Reconstructing History has a lot of medieval ones: http://store.reconstructinghistory.com/historic-patterns/medieval.html (http://store.reconstructinghistory.com/historic-patterns/medieval.html)
For shoes, I did what Sir Ian did.. removed the chunky leather ones, and put modern laces. I got longer laces than needed, lace them up all the way, then tie it off at the back of my foot. Keeps the lacing away from the front of the sabatons and doesn't have any "bow bulge".
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Since mail is mostly off the shelf, have a look at this:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=165371&sid=c60b7e042ad3c86b08dd613b0f7745eb&p=2535061#p2535061 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=165371&sid=c60b7e042ad3c86b08dd613b0f7745eb&p=2535061#p2535061)
It's about $300 off the price new - flattened, riveted mail hauberk and coif. He's also got the riveting tool for $20.
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If I had the money right now I would go for it.
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Period correct footwear with a flat sole will not cause problems with a strap. Most inexpensive reproduction period footwear uses leather on the bottom that is too thick, and that does cause problems. Real period footwear has a very supple sole and puts no pressure on the arch of the foot, so as long as you don't have flat feet, the strap of a spur should basically occupy the space under the arch of your foot. It's more like walking barefoot than in a shoe. Nice soft flexible soles on good reproduction period footwear will help eliminate the problem that Sir James is describing. We as modern folk are used to a hard sole, so it takes getting used to, but period footwear was designed to be soft so that you could feel and grip the ground with your foot and not slip. The problem is generally that good period footwear is hard to find or expensive, or both. Mass produced period footwear is not good period footwear.
I don't mean to derail the thread here, but on this note, how are the shoes from Viking Leathercrafts? I've heard nothing but good things about them and was planning on getting a pair sometime soon.
The boots from Viking Leathercrafts are just the Westland Crafts boots which are mass produced in Pakistan and re-sold by Frank. He doesn't make them. Frank's a great guy and business man, but most of the shoes he sells are not just the Westland stuff. I've used them for years, and they're more than adequate. I would replace the giant thongs of leather that they ship with for laces, but they're fine. They are mass produced they and do not really mimic period footwear, but they look the part.
Real medieval footware reproductions can be had from the following:
http://www.plantagenetshoes.co.uk/cat13_14.aspx (http://www.plantagenetshoes.co.uk/cat13_14.aspx)
http://home.comcast.net/~meisterdru/shoes.htm (http://home.comcast.net/~meisterdru/shoes.htm)
http://www.np-historicalshoes.com/home.php?lang=en (http://www.np-historicalshoes.com/home.php?lang=en)
But they are expensive and made to order.
Regardless, for wear under a sabaton, you ideally want side-laced shoes so that things like buckles, or top laces don't interfere with a properly close-fitted piece of armor. There's more leeway with maille foot coverings on the ends of chausses though.
That's awesome...I'm going to those sites now.
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watch them. one of them has been known to sell using chrome tanned leather. well they used to. prob dont anymore but its something to watch for
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What's wrong with chrome-tanned leather? Does it leech out into your clothes or whatever?
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What's wrong with chrome-tanned leather? Does it leech out into your clothes or whatever?
Chrome tanned leather is not historical before the end of the 19th century.
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Can you tell the difference just by looking at them?
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Can you tell the difference just by looking at them?
They dye differently, and I believe chrome-tanned is very difficult to remove dye from, the texture can be different. Even so, if you're building a living history kit, then you care about chrome vs veg tanned leather.
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Can you tell the difference just by looking at them?
Also, if you look at a cross-section, chrome-tanned leather usually has a grey or whitish center. Like Little Debbie snack cakes.... :P
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damnit man, now i'm hungry! lol ya they have a white center. lol i remember i giged the famous mac about using chrome on a friend tassets lol eheh he smirked at me and used a sharpie to color the edges lol