ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Campaign => Topic started by: Ian on 2013-04-05, 00:20:45
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i have a question for the SCA guys, or anyone else who has an opinin on the matter.
Is there a cultural reason within the SCA that accounts for the over-representation of Eastern European / Rus etc styles of armor for heavy kits? I see very little representation of Western European medieval kit in photos and videos of events and wars out there. This is just one person's observation, and maybe I'm totally wrong. Thoughts?
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i have a question for the SCA guys, or anyone else who has an opinin on the matter.
Is there a cultural reason within the SCA that accounts for the over-representation of Eastern European / Rus etc styles of armor for heavy kits? I see very little representation of Western European medieval kit in photos and videos of events and wars out there. This is just one person's observation, and maybe I'm totally wrong. Thoughts?
Personally Ian, I think more SCA guys are just drawn the the eastern style. I have to admit that lamellar, scales, etc do seem to be more predominant armor kit choices amongst seasoned fighters from my experience. I still prefer 'western' because it is more my heritage for me but the armor types and variations coincide with personal preference and personas of the fighter. Lamellar and scales is certainly more comfortable than maille and plate. Not to mention the padding in thinner layers is not as cumbersome. I would sacrifice some protection for comfort and mobility in fighting but it varies...
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I'm not sure. I did mine because it's my heritage.
Other than that Byzantine, Scandinavia, and Varangians are just cool. :)
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Does that style of armor lend itself more to the style of fighting that makes one successful in the heavy lyst? I just find the ratio counter-intuitive because generally speaking Western European medieval culture is usually the more commonly reproduced culture everywhere else.
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I thought it boiled down to personal taste...and perhaps some financial consideration thrown in. I have noted how many SCAers that sport lamellar kits have crafted them by themselves using kits of pre-cut and punched scales, rope cord and elbow grease; the same can't be said for a white harness, for instance. Not to mention you can buy a fully built lamellar harness for a good deal less than a similarly protective plate harness, depending on who is making it. Its probably easier to replace/relace a few plates than pounding out dents in a similar plate harness. Just my thought on it.
Thorsteinn, didn't you build yours?
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Does that style of armor lend itself more to the style of fighting that makes one successful in the heavy lyst? I just find the ratio counter-intuitive because generally speaking Western European medieval culture is usually the more commonly reproduced culture everywhere else.
The armor certainly does have its advantages but it must also coincide with the disadvantages in the fighter's skill level and fighting style in Western vs. Eastern. I have taken some Eastern style armor pieces and managed to make them work in my Western style kits effectively. My background is in Eastern style martial arts & weapon styles but I have adapted to learning Western style fighting techniques. It does help to be lightweight in foot combat against multiple opponents with Eastern armor being more advantage in mobility, visibility. However, in heavy list combat against singular opponents, the Western style armor gives better protection but lessens in other areas mentioned. So it comes down to weighing the two against each other.
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I think it has to do with effort, when it comes to maintaining the armor, its use, and its acquisition. Many of the guys I talk too more often than not don’t know much about the historical fighting tactics and their kits, most of them just do it for fun, and power to them for that.
So why all the eastern kits? Easy to make, easy to acquire, and the average Joe for the most part knows nothing about the eastern parts of Europe, so they can get away with a little more stuff. (Many of the SCA guys by me tend not to know anything at all and call themselves swords-men even though they have never fought with a sword; they are more like LARPers with rattan instead of foam. It could and most likely is different elsewhere but by me that is how it is :-\)
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For me I use an Eastern style kit because it is more to my persona than anything else. The other reason is, I built it myself (great satisfaction) and it was fairly inexpensive to do, the helmet was the most expensive part. When I first started I used a more western style kit and it was so cumbersome I was failing as a fighter and couldn't fight very well. By changing my kit, I was able to move better and fight better. My knight is training in sabre style sword fighting and this kit makes it easier to do that. I took great pride in building my own stuff. I also did cause a mongol warrior would use what he found as armor if it was still in go working order so the look that I use works good for that part of the persona history. If you have other questions let me know...
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I am not sure about the SCA, but I just had a discussion with our local group's blacksmith (we are part of the Adrian Empire) about this. For Adria, it seems that only European armor allows for a person to meet the safety requirements imposed by the organization.
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Easy to make, easy to acquire, and the average Joe for the most part knows nothing about the eastern parts of Europe, so they can get away with a little more stuff.
That would be my guess.
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Easy to make, easy to acquire, and the average Joe for the most part knows nothing about the eastern parts of Europe, so they can get away with a little more stuff.
That would be my guess.
Agreed on that.
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I think it goes beyond cheaper and easier. I think the sport itself forces people down that road because of the way armor functions (or doesn't) in SCA heavy. Armor doesn't 'protect' you in the SCA. It does in the literal sense of the word, but if you get hit in your 14th century rerebrace with a sword, you 'lose your arm'. So why would I wear cumbersome armor if it doesn't help me win? I think it just leads to shedding armor to the absolute minimum required to give you an advantage in the sport. This ultimately is what turned me off to SCA heavy.
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I know what you mean about the sport aspect. Hidden plastic is the lightest and most mobile, with no penalty as far as combat. The one season I did SCA heavy, I did it in a pseudo-16th-century-italian-inspired harness, and I sucked. I lost a solid 95% of the time (or more). Could I have been remotely competitive in 70-ish pounds of armor compared to others in 20-25 pounds? Nope, not at my athletic level. Even at peak, I would have to be considerably better to squeak out a few wins by having so much more encumbrance. I even wore cased greaves, just because I liked the look, even though lower leg isn't a valid target (mistakes happen).
Was it fun? Yep. Do I prefer WMA / living history instead of "sport" style competition? Yep. Personal preference, and those who enjoy SCA seem to really enjoy it, so more power to them - as long as there's swords involved, I won't complain.
Hidden armor, leather armor - all look appropriate on the eastern european styles, to my eye, but I don't know much of those styles either, beyond bazubands and basic helmets / cuirass (char aina).
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It does seem to go beyond combat though. I see a lot of middle-eastern style clothing and decoration at Pennsic too. So the style itself must hold broad appeal in the SCA as well.
One theory I had was that some folks did it just to be different, and then it caught on.
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I love the game and I love the look of the Asian stuff...I personally like the culture and the discipline involved...I too am not that good at SCA combat but I am learning and it is always a learning process...I am better than most and I think if I were to do some sort of martial art outside of SCA I would be better.
The kit you use depends on what sort of persona you are going for...alot of asian personas wore just clothing and lots of it to try and protect and as the killed they picked up stuff and made it work (at least the mongols) but go with what you like, a lot of the SCA is look (pomp and circumstance)...you have to look good while fighting...
Just my opinion
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SCA culture is always in flux. I think that is part of the appeal. Earlier observations of being "trendy" are probably the most correct. So when "Braveheart" came out, all of the sudden kilts were everywhere. Pirates of the Caribean came out , so lots of pirate types, which also came at the same time "period fencing" in the SCA really took off. Recently with History's "Vikings" , I expect a whole new crop of vikings will show up. Sadly they will look like the hells angels vikings from the show. People see a movie and want to be the guy in the movie. They go to SCA because of that . They can be a scottiish lord, pirate, viking, or William Marshal(don't we all wish this movie would come out).
They seem to like the eastern stuff because it is different. Typically these people come to SCA to be different ,to be who they really are in a place where being different is
the norm.Personally I think the italian city states would be the way I would go. They get the best of the east and west.
The Rus thing really is that whole philosophy. They get the viking with the Byzantine and the turk/mongel. There are lots of resources for lamelar now . It is cheap, easy and looks cool. 20 years ago lamelar was rare and so were the rus.
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I'm actually surprised the Italian City-states concept didn't take off with the gamer crowd within the SCA. After Assassin's Creed II and so on, I thought that would have permeated through the renaissance/rapier community. I know it has inspired my renaissance kit quite a bit.
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Those kits from AC aren't cheap, despite being Windlass made. I flirted with doing an assassin persona but they don't wear any armor (well,bracers, pauldron and greaves- a BP if you go into AC2, Brotherhood and Revelations) - and what they do wear is quite ornate; but what is available is rather cheaply made - polyurethane mostly.
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I remember a time - not all that long ago - when there was a bit of debate in the SCA as to whether Native American personae (in the appropriate SCA time periods) should be allowed since at the beginning there wasn't much in the rules actually forbidding such things. Ultimately it fell flat, but I recall thinking: 'Man, if you want to go with LIGHT protection in battle the Native way would have been it' :)
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Those kits from AC aren't cheap, despite being Windlass made. I flirted with doing an assassin persona but they don't wear any armor (well,bracers, pauldron and greaves- a BP if you go into AC2, Brotherhood and Revelations) - and what they do wear is quite ornate; but what is available is rather cheaply made - polyurethane mostly.
Not cheap indeed.. the full Ezio outfit was around $2,000 when I looked. Haven't looked again because of the shock.
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Those kits from AC aren't cheap, despite being Windlass made. I flirted with doing an assassin persona but they don't wear any armor (well,bracers, pauldron and greaves- a BP if you go into AC2, Brotherhood and Revelations) - and what they do wear is quite ornate; but what is available is rather cheaply made - polyurethane mostly.
Not cheap indeed.. the full Ezio outfit was around $2,000 when I looked. Haven't looked again because of the shock.
Just do a Ranger outfit. Much cheaper & looks just as good to me. I'm wearing mine to NHRF on Sunday. :)
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I had not even thought of Assassins creed when i made the post. My son(14 years old) had my wife make him his AC costume about two years ago. It came out really well.He was looking at the MR versions and there was no way I spending that much for his costume.Yeah I could image going to 12th night with a dozen guys all dressed as Enzio.
I meant mostly that the Italian city states offer more flexability than about anywhere else in europe.
As far as the native American idea, I saw a guy dressed like that about 15-16 yeasr ago at Astrella. He had minimum armor and his kit looked awesome. I just kept thinking how painful it must be to fight in that.
I don't think there should be an issue with it. People dress as Japaneese, Chineese , why not native American? I've seen really cool greek kits from 300-500 bc on the field.Again the SCA is pretty free form.
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I remember a time - not all that long ago - when there was a bit of debate in the SCA as to whether Native American personae (in the appropriate SCA time periods) should be allowed since at the beginning there wasn't much in the rules actually forbidding such things. Ultimately it fell flat, but I recall thinking: 'Man, if you want to go with LIGHT protection in battle the Native way would have been it' :)
In the outlands we have a Knight named Sir Otakte (sp) that is Native/Aztecan descent in the SCA time period and his armor is minimal but awesome...just a thought
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Those kits from AC aren't cheap, despite being Windlass made. I flirted with doing an assassin persona but they don't wear any armor (well,bracers, pauldron and greaves- a BP if you go into AC2, Brotherhood and Revelations) - and what they do wear is quite ornate; but what is available is rather cheaply made - polyurethane mostly.
Not cheap indeed.. the full Ezio outfit was around $2,000 when I looked. Haven't looked again because of the shock.
Sir William, and Sir James, with all due respect,
That depends, it all depends on what a person is willing to do as far as man-hours, just like anything else with re-enactment. The most I've ever spent on garb was $48 on six yards of gorgeous green upholstery fabric with a pinstriped jacquard. It's not a period garment because of the material, but beyond that, it's amazing and looks totally 1660s justacorps with my matching vest and trousers. Same with all my friends that do cosplay... epic kits for maybe $200.
Beyond that, I have a friend who is custom commissioning from an armorer Ezio's armor pieces for cut and thrust combat. Needless to say the armorer is a bit daunted, but he's excited as all get-out too! ;D
(http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/192x/dc/a4/a9/dca4a982603450df8129f3cd3e5dec5e.jpg)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/bd7aec7baaa6db8bc286bfda43b9e357/tumblr_mfgi7tOgUS1r0h5wwo1_500.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/165738_490680771816_1679817_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/381254_10150449156846817_2054025306_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/181562_10150111278906817_366799_n.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ec4.pinimg.com/originals/2e/29/7b/2e297b89040cf431426d643a4fe52f85.jpg)
(http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/halo-reach-kat-armor-by-liltyrant.jpg)
(http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/halo-reach-kat-armor-by-liltyrant-4.jpg)
me in my Jedi-
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/190678_10150111276181817_6754710_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/183086_10150111276221817_2672399_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/188618_10150111276296817_4163190_n.jpg)
- experience: proud member of the 405th, 501st, Rebel Legion, Mandalorian Mercs, and Assassin's Creed Costumer's guild ;) we make our kits, I haven't been able to finish mine because I'm working on this medieval stuff, history is more interesting. I do have my jedi though
Also, be on the lookout here boys 8)
My templar is almost done, basically years of weaving mail is about all I have left for that kit
then,
on to my 15th, 16th, and 17th century "Spanish" kits ;) and THAT is heavily influenced by Assassin's Creed's Ezio.
beyond that, all of my costuming buddies like to look at their massive 48" HDMI 1080p game screens, then check out that "expensive" stuff, make fun of its inaccuracies either from in-game or historical, like Ezio's Altair outfit, it obviously has slashed sleeves but don't look it in any game, and then talk, plan, and plot "how do I make it better, more accurate to the game and history, and for a tenth the price!"
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Those kits from AC aren't cheap, despite being Windlass made. I flirted with doing an assassin persona but they don't wear any armor (well,bracers, pauldron and greaves- a BP if you go into AC2, Brotherhood and Revelations) - and what they do wear is quite ornate; but what is available is rather cheaply made - polyurethane mostly.
Not cheap indeed.. the full Ezio outfit was around $2,000 when I looked. Haven't looked again because of the shock.
Sir William, and Sir James, with all due respect,
That depends, it all depends on what a person is willing to do as far as man-hours, just like anything else with re-enactment. The most I've ever spent on garb was $48 on six yards of gorgeous green upholstery fabric with a pinstriped jacquard. It's not a period garment because of the material, but beyond that, it's amazing and looks totally 1660s justacorps with my matching vest and trousers. Same with all my friends that do cosplay... epic kits for maybe $200.
Oh, agreed it's reasonable if you do it on your own. Sticker shock is on the actual licensed replicas from Windlass. I have the Robert de Sable surcoat, William of Montferrat, and Lionheart gambeson. I've really wanted an Assassin's Creed kit for many years, but I can't bring myself to drop $2k on "soft" kit; that's serious Albion/armor money.
I've beaten all the AC console games. It is probably my favorite games series of all time, and I've been playing games since Atari/Intellivision back in the 80s. There's nothing like chuckin' a spear at a rooftop guard in Brotherhood and watching them fly. Oh, I also, umm, have the Assassin's Creed logos on both sides of my car. :D
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/bd7aec7baaa6db8bc286bfda43b9e357/tumblr_mfgi7tOgUS1r0h5wwo1_500.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ec4.pinimg.com/originals/2e/29/7b/2e297b89040cf431426d643a4fe52f85.jpg)
Oh
My
Goodness
I love both of these!! Especially the Altair style kit - "classic" Assassin. Very cool. Are there any more pictures? Would like to see the front too.
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I'm a big Assassin's Creed fan too. Those are just beautiful. :o
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Agreed. Look fantastic.
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Just do a Ranger outfit. Much cheaper & looks just as good to me. I'm wearing mine to NHRF on Sunday. :)
I've seen your Ranger outfit, it does look cool- but not AC cool. ;)
B. Patricius, with all due respect...if I had the talent and inclination; only I don't. No time, or rather, no time I'd like to spend sewing or what have you- not if it is available elsewhere and not cost an arm and a leg. I'm with Sir James...the sticker shock stopped me cold. The Altair ensemble is marginally cheaper, but so're the costume bits like the bracers, glove (altho I understand the boots w/gaiters are particularly well made, they wanted way too much for them), the wire-framed hood...the pics you posted look fantastic, especially the Ezio and Altair costumes.
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Those kits from AC aren't cheap, despite being Windlass made. I flirted with doing an assassin persona but they don't wear any armor (well,bracers, pauldron and greaves- a BP if you go into AC2, Brotherhood and Revelations) - and what they do wear is quite ornate; but what is available is rather cheaply made - polyurethane mostly.
Not cheap indeed.. the full Ezio outfit was around $2,000 when I looked. Haven't looked again because of the shock.
Sir William, and Sir James, with all due respect,
That depends, it all depends on what a person is willing to do as far as man-hours, just like anything else with re-enactment. The most I've ever spent on garb was $48 on six yards of gorgeous green upholstery fabric with a pinstriped jacquard. It's not a period garment because of the material, but beyond that, it's amazing and looks totally 1660s justacorps with my matching vest and trousers. Same with all my friends that do cosplay... epic kits for maybe $200.
Oh, agreed it's reasonable if you do it on your own. Sticker shock is on the actual licensed replicas from Windlass. I have the Robert de Sable surcoat, William of Montferrat, and Lionheart gambeson. I've really wanted an Assassin's Creed kit for many years, but I can't bring myself to drop $2k on "soft" kit; that's serious Albion/armor money.
I've beaten all the AC console games. It is probably my favorite games series of all time, and I've been playing games since Atari/Intellivision back in the 80s. There's nothing like chuckin' a spear at a rooftop guard in Brotherhood and watching them fly. Oh, I also, umm, have the Assassin's Creed logos on both sides of my car. :D
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/bd7aec7baaa6db8bc286bfda43b9e357/tumblr_mfgi7tOgUS1r0h5wwo1_500.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ec4.pinimg.com/originals/2e/29/7b/2e297b89040cf431426d643a4fe52f85.jpg)
Oh
My
Goodness
I love both of these!! Especially the Altair style kit - "classic" Assassin. Very cool. Are there any more pictures? Would like to see the front too.
Those costumes are gorgeous. I love the SPARTAN kit too - very well done
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;D love the enthusiasm
I have separated this talk to another thread:
http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,2489.0.html (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,2489.0.html) feel like it's going into garb and garb inspiration specific rather than SCA Culture ;D
OK, so I'm going to go with easiest first, followed by more detailed answers for everyone
First, Corvus, and all those admirers of LilTyrant's Kat build from Halo: Reach:
http://www.405th.com/forum/armor-uniform-and-prop-making/elite-showcase/36670-kat-armor-build-with-custom-undersuit?s=e0bac2bb516600f72ada5eb4fddb1891 (http://www.405th.com/forum/armor-uniform-and-prop-making/elite-showcase/36670-kat-armor-build-with-custom-undersuit?s=e0bac2bb516600f72ada5eb4fddb1891) and my God, it gets sexier ;)
also, she does an excellent job of showing and instructing on all the skills required for making such armor, it's amazing.
Now on to the little bit more involved:
Assassin's Creed outfits, GOOD ones, without the sword, can be made for under $200 with believe me (I know, I'm a novice sewer - 1 garment made!) simple sewing and very good guide to get it done:
http://www.assassinscostume.com/altair/ (http://www.assassinscostume.com/altair/) the best news, he has Youtube tutorials for every piece
Altaïr costume » full costume (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4--4lpX0fe8#ws)
it's really not that difficult guys, and please by all means, Windlass' kits on these things are just as cheap and not accurate as anything else they make. We all know Windlass, they're close, but they're no Albion ;) I know a swordsmith that would make a custom Syrian Sword, Shiavonna (Ezio), or Altair's Eagle sword in a heartbeat and get it done NICE. We all do. Spend the money there, the rest is actually easy with good tricks and such.
A little leather craft, a little foamies, a little elmer's glue, a TON of time, and these dreams can be realities. Live the dream, isn't that why we're here after all?
As for garb, any and all questions related, I'm more than happy to assist. I'm new to sewing, but I do make my own patterns. My first try at that was that Jedi outfit. All based on movie publicity photos and "what should work." I was honored by the RebelLegion with a "best real-life interpretation" award. I don't know if that award is even "real" per se, and I don't care, it was great to be appreciated for the work involved and my mom (my seamstress at the time) was in tears of joy. It's worth it, and it can be a ton of fun. And now, versus 15 years ago, we have great communities to work on them with.
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Back to the original topic ;D
it appears that SCA "Stick Jocks" as we are affectionately known, are 14th century period 8)
(http://vieuxchamps.com/persona/images/shields/m/91rc_m.jpg)
from theRomance of Alexander, 1338-44. French, with a Flemish illustrator.
fol. 91r
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moved to AC thread
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Patricus,
My persona is a 14th century Scot in service to a French noble, so I dress like 100 years war French man-at -arms. I like the 14th century, it has a lot of variation from 1300-1400. I think it has more variation than any other period before it. That said , the "14th century Mafia" is quite big.
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To each their own Lord Ciaran, :)
I'm a proud member of the chain-gang if you can even call me that. I don't regularly practice, let alone war, in the SCA. Not even a full member. I do like 14th century transitional armour though, I like the splints and studs, adds a nice variation.
For me, the periods armour is a far second to the period's history, and I'm biased as I said since I've been a fan of Robin Hood since pre-school.
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Patricus,
I certainly didn't mean to imply it was the best period. It is the best period for me, but maybe not someone else. Again it is a very flexable structure and offers something for almost everyone. The earlier crusader period is cool too.
I belong to a viking group as well, so I am in mail and a spangenhelm with them. It's nice to play when and where you want. I also have a Mac Bible style helm for my earlier kit. So I can appreciate the whole mail thing.
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i can't decide who i wanna be. so i'm all of them. just not at once
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Sometimes it is nice to know what era you want to set constraints to especially when you have a medieval spending problem. :P ** No comments Sir James ** lol
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i can't decide who i wanna be. so i'm all of them. just not at once
All at once? Wow, that would be a sight to see. Hmm.... Photoshop.... :)
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i can't decide who i wanna be. so i'm all of them. * at once*
;D pics or ban!! :D
Lord Ciaran,
I believe we're arguing the same point mate. I didn't mean anything negative by it, just a "to each their own" and why I chose my period. Realistically, I will be getting into 14c transitional at some point, the group I work with does some crazy rebated steel combat, grappling and all... so yeah, the more armour the better. I'll have to change from a Knights Templar though, right now I'm looking into "Spanish" kits for a 14th and 15th persona. Basically from Aragon or Castile fighting in the Reconquista. I just feel 100 years war gets too much attention, is it worth it? Yes. But I like to be different ;)
and yes, Lord Dane, it definitely helps to have at least some type of time period nailed down, or some other form of checklist. I've seen far too many go the "oooh! that's sweet" route and never finish a project.
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Why are certain cultures more prevenlent on the SCA heavy list?
Drawing from my personal experience, it is a combination of several things.
The DIYer- Alot of people I know get a certain feeling of accomplishment by making their own harness. Lamillar is simpler to make than a black and white suit.
Kingdom culture- A dear friend of mine won the Middle Crown a while back, and everyone (it seems) went to a Norman kit, because of his persona. Also falling into this is a doubt in some people's mind on whether a blow was well struck or not, relying on sound because
of the protection rather than felling the blow
Cost- Enough said
fwiw, I 'usually' portray a Norseman circa 1000.
I am assembling a mid 14th C rig (circa Visby) for times when I want to 'dress up' ;)
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Is it Wisby or Visby??? Because I see both in different references. ???
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Is it Wisby or Visby??? Because I see both in different references. ???
Both. They're just alternate spellings for the same thing. It's pronounced like "Visby" though.
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I've seen it both ways too. I think it has to do with our lettered language back then wasn't as cut and dry as it is now. Chaucer spelled the same word three different ways in his "Cantebury Tales." I can try to find the word too, I just remember that from junior year English.
Hrolfr, and Thorstein as well, and any other SCAdians
I have a question in regards to the SCA culture and their Also falling into this is a doubt in some people's mind on whether a blow was well struck or not, relying on sound because
of the protection rather than felling the blow
I had a TON of people tell me I can't do a Samurai kit, not because it's Samurai but because it's so armoured 8) My response was "that's my point." I'm very competitive when I choose to be, and the SCA isn't one of those situations. Basically for me, if a hit hits, I call it. It doesn't matter if it hit me like a ton of bricks, or was a light tap like rapier's draw cut. But, maybe it's this very concept of me taking light hits that may have made me become a kind of outcast. My samurai kit is because in the Western United States, the SCA is by far the best place to have the opportunity to wear all that cool gear and fight in it.
I'm just wondering about the SCA and its "hits" as a whole. I used to run a WMA club for a short bit, and we prided ourselves on the ability to move exceptionally quick, and stop before even coming in contact with the other person. We spent 45 minutes a day practicing that drill to "attain control." Then, in my time in the SCA, most everyone agreed I was fast, but "not aggressive enough, and not hard enough." I'm just kind of wondering where this came from?
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I had a TON of people tell me I can't do a Samurai kit, not because it's Samurai but because it's so armoured 8) My response was "that's my point." I'm very competitive when I choose to be, and the SCA isn't one of those situations. Basically for me, if a hit hits, I call it. It doesn't matter if it hit me like a ton of bricks, or was a light tap like rapier's draw cut. But, maybe it's this very concept of me taking light hits that may have made me become a kind of outcast. My samurai kit is because in the Western United States, the SCA is by far the best place to have the opportunity to wear all that cool gear and fight in it.
Here's Nissan from the AA's sweet SCA heavy samurai kit:
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/johncmeyer/samurai.jpg)
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Nissan's kit is bananas!
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I'm just wondering about the SCA and its "hits" as a whole. I used to run a WMA club for a short bit, and we prided ourselves on the ability to move exceptionally quick, and stop before even coming in contact with the other person. We spent 45 minutes a day practicing that drill to "attain control." Then, in my time in the SCA, most everyone agreed I was fast, but "not aggressive enough, and not hard enough." I'm just kind of wondering where this came from?
That would bother me too. The thing is, in a real fight with sharp weapons, it doesn't take a lot of force at all to kill or horribly maim someone. Hits that are considered "light" in the SCA would often be deadly in a real fight. But if you make the argument "yes but they're wearing armor!", then you run into the issue that historically, armor was VERY good at stopping swords. If the rattan hits don't kill you, a real sword wouldn't either. Real-world armored combat was more about attacking the gaps in the armor, using the armor against the opponent, and so on. So the manuscripts contain a lot of throws, wrestling, stabs to the joints, eyes, and groin, arm-breaks, and so on. All the sorts of things you can't do safely in a fun environment.
So SCA combat strikes me as unarmored combat, but with armor to be safe. And if you're emulating unarmored combat, then they should be counting a lot more of the light hits too.
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I'm going to suit up in "Ford" armor, call myself "Cadillac" and kick Nissan in his "Dodge" when he is not looking. :)
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So SCA combat strikes me as unarmored combat, but with armor to be safe. And if you're emulating unarmored combat, then they should be counting a lot more of the light hits too.
This is an excellent point and one of the paradoxes that soured me on the SCA heavy game.
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I'm starting to wonder if it's SCA culture, versus the culture and ideals that permeate through WMA. We train hard, just as hard as SCAdians, but we do it differently. I'm not a fan of super deep bruises or watching someone in a melee get flown 5 feet, like I saw at an Estrella war. The guy got nailed hard by a two man team of spear and sword and shield.
I'm going to suit up in "Ford" armor, call myself "Cadillac" and kick Nissan in his "Dodge" when he is not looking. :)
ROLFMAO
I LOVE Nissan's kit, there's alot of cool samurai armour out there. I'm actually working on an osode-tsuki do-maru of the 13th century. I'm hoping it'll look at least a bit like this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Dou_maru_gusoku.jpg) and needless to say, with all that lace and individual scales, it's taking me a while. :o But to me, that's probably more than half the fun!
The local SCAdians here love the idea that I'm making that armour and doing it for the "right" reasons, whatever that means. They just wish I'd go out and practice with them now, with next to nothing, just some loner gear. I have a bad knee and need that armour to protect it, and my other injuries. I'm already pretty injured (I'm on disability), and I don't need more :) hurt is one thing, injured is another.
I'm just glad I found another group in the area that actually told me I hit too hard!! I couldn't believe it! I'm so excited I can wear pretty much all period armor for the early 13th century, and fight in it, and be plenty protected! Not only that, but they applaud that I wear braies, hose, and the rest!
The guy I'm working with, knows the pain method, but doesn't like to teach with it at all. And anyone, anyone who thinks he's a wimp, I'd love to see them fight him. He's been training in WMA, Kenjutsu, and Kendo for the better part of 40 years and trains... TRAINS the Battle of Nations Team USA! He knows how to hit plenty hard, but enjoys going light. I just wish I knew where the SCA came up with the attitude of "if it ain't a deep bruise needing a sign, it ain't worth it" attitude.
I know plenty of SCAdians that are very respectable and well liked and hit hard when required against an opponent but don't with me because he knows I'll take a light shot. It's just a game, and taking light hits makes one better at blocking them! He's also a knight and titled Baron too, so well respected within the community.
So SCA combat strikes me as unarmored combat, but with armor to be safe. And if you're emulating unarmored combat, then they should be counting a lot more of the light hits too.
This is an excellent point and one of the paradoxes that soured me on the SCA heavy game.
It soured me too. Honestly I don't care about fighting all that much now I've found another outlet, and thanks to Sir Brian here giving me the idea in the first place! I enjoy the arts and sciences as much as I do rapier, broadsword, and armor. And now with this community, I get to discuss all these things with a very respectful group where all our opinions are heard. I was branded "weird" from the get-go in the SCA because I cared about hose and braies, which lets face it, minus a kilt, are some of the most comfortable things you can wear period! I was labeled a stitch nazi, even though I've never, never criticized another's kit, I just hold myself to a standard I see among everyone here, and always look at particularly Sir Nathan's Teutonic, and Sir Ian's secular kits as a bar I wish to hold myself to.
It just kinda hit me a couple months ago, "if it ain't fun, why ya doin it?" and I left the SCA pretty much for good. Which is a shame. As much as they try to be "all inclusive" people at least in my area do a fine job of pushing some of us, like my lady and I who pride ourselves in being authentic as possible, away.
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It just kinda hit me a couple months ago, "if it ain't fun, why ya doin it?" and I left the SCA pretty much for good. Which is a shame. As much as they try to be "all inclusive" people at least in my area do a fine job of pushing some of us, like my lady and I who pride ourselves in being authentic as possible, away.
That really is a shame. If I'm understanding correctly, they pushed you away for being too interested in authenticity? That's a big shame, if you weren't pushy to everyone else. I can understand in the case of a true "period nazi", but just setting a high standard for yourself is a different matter entirely.
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That really is a shame. If I'm understanding correctly, they pushed you away for being too interested in authenticity? That's a big shame, if you weren't pushy to everyone else. I can understand in the case of a true "period nazi", but just setting a high standard for yourself is a different matter entirely.
That's exactly how it went down Sir Edward. Basically, long story short of it, we were all at a SCAdian's house having a sewing party. The kids were watching "Brave," and I couldn't help but make a few comments about the blue paint, great kilts, and every other sort of ethnocentrism shown therein. I, being Irish-Scot/Gaelic, found it a bit offensive. Also, as an anthropologist I couldn't help but stir the pot as it were, and said "isn't it funny that if everyone dresses up in full Sioux war gear and calls themselves Apache it's racist but it isn't the same for genericeltvikings." I just don't condone any sort of ethnocentrism. I also made a comment of how the great kilts were 16th century, blue woad paint was ancient times, and the lead girl wore a 14th century cotehardie. Which, for me is a big deal, as it seems before this film, Disney did an okay job at historical details, so I felt it worth discussing.
All I got back from a the peer in the group was "you're a stitch nazi aren't you?!" in a very accusing way. I replied, "no, I just care about my kit, and look for authenticity within it. This is all just for discussion's sake." She then replied, "well isn't that a diplomatic way of putting it." and to put it plainly, we haven't been back since.
Beyond that, it was my second burn, if you will, with the SCA. The first was a knight and his two squires that are anything but chivalric. Needless to say, I actually was debating if jail was worth it beating on the guys, which is always a bad way to go. It's also sad to say the only reason why I didn't was because I firmly believe it wouldn't have taught them anything!
So, burn once, shame on them, burn twice, shame on me, and I've left. My lady had similar experiences with her hand-sewn cotehardie she's working on with that peer at that sewing party, and those same two squires and knight.
Probably, it's the strongest reason why I enjoy it here. I gotta say again, because I feel it can't be said enough, the level of respect and open minds shown here is very commendable. That, and for me, after hanging out with you guys here so much, it's worth it to take a roadtrip of sorts to make it to Kentucky eventually for DoK. That is somewhere that would be just pure awesomesauce for me.
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Yeah, that's something I think we all highly prize here on this forum, is a friendly atmosphere to discuss things with an open mind. Everyone has a different threshold for how much pain and expense they're willing to go through for authenticity, so some folks just don't put a huge emphasis on it. And that's OK. I think the only time it really bothers me is if people pass non-authentic stuff off as authentic. As long as people don't do that, I'm cool with whatever they want to do.
I mean, we all have to start somewhere, and some people really want to aim for a more fantasy or movie-like appearance, or are working with a tight budget, or whatever. You just never really know.
And I think the most effective way to encourage people is by setting an example. :)
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Yeah, that's something I think we all highly prize here on this forum, is a friendly atmosphere to discuss things with an open mind. Everyone has a different threshold for how much pain and expense they're willing to go through for authenticity, so some folks just don't put a huge emphasis on it. And that's OK. I think the only time it really bothers me is if people pass non-authentic stuff off as authentic. As long as people don't do that, I'm cool with whatever they want to do.
I mean, we all have to start somewhere, and some people really want to aim for a more fantasy or movie-like appearance, or are working with a tight budget, or whatever. You just never really know.
And I think the most effective way to encourage people is by setting an example. :)
QFT especially the last comment. I can't express how much Sir Ian's kit got me started two years back on following more authentic looking kits. I started going crazy over effigies and manuscript miniatures.
I'm totally a fan of the fantasy and even the "I'm a Celt, but with a definite Skyrim Nord with Rohan feel to it." And there's definitely places for that, and I do think the SCA, whether they want to admit it, has "Creative Anachronism" in their name for that very reason. There are some beautiful kits out there that have no real precedence but functionality that look amazing!
I'm just more driven towards authenticity to history and the archaeological record. I can't help it. It just upsets me when people see me doing that, and then automatically think "oh, so that means he hates mine" when usually it's the opposite. I've played Jedi, Mandalorian, and CloneTrooper. I'm currently working on a Halo ODST kit, and want to make a LOTR inspired literally Dwarf kit too! It's just when I hear "medieval - renaissance reenactment" I go for what really was there and let my fantasy just be it was all puppies and kittens without a plague, and still have all of today's modern conveniences :D
The great news is now I'm part of the Adrian Empire around here, and they have their quirks just like any and all groups. What I love, is today, just for a weekly training session, I came out in my just made cotton flannel hose, muslin braies, muslin shirt, and Templar cappae. It was over 95 degrees, and it breathed well, but I was hot, no doubt about it. But it was so worth it. Especially when they said, "wow, it's machine stitched. From far away I assumed it was all by hand because of how great and authentic it looks!" My knight that's training me, he looked me up and down, got a smirk on his face and said "fix yer boots." Him being a retired Marine, having only that comment of constructive criticism, I was floored and humbled.
I think it depends more on the individuals that make up the local groups more than the group as a whole, but there are definitely some "culture" things that permeate throughout. Like Sir Ian said as his first post, a lot of SCAdians are all over the viking kits right now, and to me, be it more fantasy (SKYRIM!!) inspired, or historical, they can look amazing doing it. They also like to hit really hard. Adrian Empire is wicked fast with their shots, but they have little to no "pop" behind them, much like WMA, and I love I can train in just a t-shirt and boardshorts if I want because a shinai can only do so much.
To each their own, I'm starting to think. We only get one shot at all this, so why not make it a good one right? At 30, I've already been to far too many funerals.
And yes Sir Wolf, I understand after posting that above, I gotta post pictures quick or be banned :o ;D
here's my answer from my heraldic device's inspiration!
(http://media-cache-ec4.pinimg.com/550x/71/15/ef/7115ef4f246a40066a8cd6377241553e.jpg)
;D ;D
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ewhh honey badger ate a snake
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I'm going to suit up in "Ford" armor, call myself "Cadillac" and kick Nissan in his "Dodge" when he is not looking. :)
Gotta see his 'Daimler Benz' persona armor. Complete with Halberd's made 'devil hoof' sabatons. Truely wicked :)
I fight in just over SCA mins (I wear hardened leather vambraces). I have a tendency to 'take light'.
Had a gentle that did not know me (several years ago at a high profile tourney) questioned my 'shrugging' a blow to the thigh. Until he saw my thigh armor (aka nothing but virtue).
My 14th C kit is going to be different, I am going to have to readjust my calibration. ymmv
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Hrolfr,
I know what you mean about recalibrating :) a hint I got from my knight I'm training with when he went up to full 14th/15th plate was to "go by sound." Have a buddy throw light and good shots on your armor and listen for the difference the sound makes, much like a shot to the helmet. We also work with rebated steel though, so it's a bit different, but same concepts apply.
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Adrian Empire. I never joined or really interacted with them much, but I remember them doing a lot of recruitment when I was in college. At the time I was a bit too shy and too much of a social misfit to join a group that didn't have anyone in it that I already knew. :)
How does their combat system compare? Are they also doing rattan, or steel fighting?
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I love the armor in Skyrim...all of it. I think Sir Ian had a mod that substituted more authentic 14th C armor kits for what was available in Skyrim...that was pretty darn cool.
Oh by the way...I bought History: Great Battles Medieval after Sir Edward had posted the image in another thread and quickly realized why I only do RTS on the PC. It sucks on console!
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I'm a complete noob so I may be wrong on some things about the Adrian Empire, but I'll post up what I know from my knight and what I've read here: http://www.adrianempire.org/documents/manuals.php (http://www.adrianempire.org/documents/manuals.php)
noobs start with shinai, heavy t-shirt material, cups, and hard elbows and knees with a WMA mesh helm
after that,
you get to start working with live rebated steel, think Hanwei's, BKS, Albion's I:33 and Messer, etc etc for "armoured combat" and you also have the opportunity to fight "ren"
Ren is for renaissance combat which has two categories:
1: is rapier combat, but they do allow cuts with the edge, and use a slightly heavier and earlier period of design. Think authentic 16th-17th century type stuff. Also the armor requirements are more towards gentleman duels, lots of layers of good fabric.
My Spanish kit is textbook:
hose, braies, and shirt followed by
doublet, and trunks
and finally a jerkin over that
with a gorget for safety hidden at my throat and a cup hidden as well
2: is cut and thrust, earlier renaissance rapier (think 15th century, like Medici Italy) and later Scottish broadsword and backsword, with heavier blades and more armor but not as armored as armored rebated combat.
It's interesting to note, the video I posted up is actually at an Adrian Empire event with Puck fighting that Scottish guy. Basically, for cut and thrust you can use a good later rapier as well, as long as it has a blade that can hold up to it. Puck uses a mid 15th century Espada Ropera by Darkwood Armory.
Basically, they start you from scratch and look at what kind of experience you have. For example, I know quite a bit, but nothing that easily translates into what's called "points" within the Adrian Empire. So for me, I'm starting at the beginning with a shinai, and loving it, and my knight says after the first few tourneys I enter I should be able to make next higher list and start working with those weapons. He figures, depending on my making events, that I can start working Rapier in 3 events, and rebated armored combat in as little as 6 but realistically 9. Also, it's cool to note these "events" are every month, required by the Adrian Empire.
We also have set up a training day, every Sunday as well, but nothing that happens there goes towards points. Only events, wars, etc count for that.
I really like it. But again, I think it all depends on the group a person ends up working with and associating with. Just like the military, where if a kid hangs out with downers, he becomes a downer, he hangs out with squared away guys, he becomes a squared away guy and might a career out of it.
I'm fortunate we have the group of knights here in the local area. Sir Thorn, our Archery instructor, can instinctively (he brings the bow to bear for maybe 2 seconds) shoot 2" groupings at 20 feet!
Sir Ian is the knight I'm training under for combat. He has over 40 years experience with just about everything. He laughed and loved working with my destreza, only afterward telling me he knew Puck so at least knew our quirks. I still got him though three times, which in itself was amazing. His baby is longsword, so that's what I've been working on with him in shinai, and once I get my kite and heater shields made, we'll move to sword and shield, but he wants me to earn that.
Sir Ian is also a great archer and can get amazing groups too. When they first were showing us how they shoot and how they would train us, Sir Ian barely looked at the target, shot, and got two arrows touching at 10 feet. They all work together, cohesively like a team, and help others mature in their own martial arts. At least in combat, Sir Ian shows what works for him, we practice it slow, and do drills to muscle memory, and then has us practice those techniques. The fact we work with him, and then the other half work with each other, is awesome. He trains the BOTN guys and knows plenty of as he says "techniques and methods." He also believes a "trick" is a one-show pony, with little skill, whereas learning the techniques and methods actually used to produce that "trick" are priceless and can be carried out throughout our martial career.
Also, about armor.
One word: AWESOME!!
they require either plate for armored combat, or transitional splints with mail. The mail is there for a reason and is required if not wearing full plate. So, I'm going to Home Depot today to buy some annealed rebar wire and get cracking on my riveted hauberk so it's ready for me when I attain that level.
In short, Adrian Empire works for me. I'm not into politics, which in AE, you don't have to be. In a very cynical way of putting it, the Adrian Empire's "paths to knighthood" can be construed as "attendance." But a cynical way of putting it with the SCA is a "popularity contest" too. They both have their merits, and for me, Adria fits me very nicely.
Also, for throwing shots, as it is still termed in the Adrian Empire as well as SCA. Adria focuses on speed and dexterity, rather than all out power. My lady did her first combat practice last Sunday, and Sir Ian spent about 15 minutes on just how to properly grip a longsword through the cut. He showed her on Shinai and his bastard sword. It's really important not to throw hard shots. I'm even continually asked to look out for my power, because of my recent time being a Pirate and a Jedi and mainly for show. They want really fast shots, that barely touch the opponent, be it with shinai, rapier, or rebated steel. Control is key for this. For me, I enjoy this style more than SCA hardsuiting just because of my injuries, my knee can't take the kind of shots the SCA does.
But hands down, for me, this has more to do with Sir Ian and Sir Thorn, rather than the group they're a part of. Sir Ian tells me he knows of this group as well.
I'd say this was shot, about 50 feet, on day by Sir Thorn. Basically he has a nice long driveway, and this was shot from the street up into his yard and berm.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/923161_588641797836030_1035964255_n.jpg)
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SCA-wise I'm probably the most informed guy here on the forum for the culture of the first, and If I may say best, SCA kingdom. I'm speaking of course of the West.
So ask what you will of me. I'm a-ready!