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Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir_Edward_ReBrook on 2015-10-19, 21:00:30

Title: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir_Edward_ReBrook on 2015-10-19, 21:00:30
Getnlemen:

what is your favorite knight in armour ensemble from 1066 - 1546, both aesthetically and functionally? Please share a picture, if you are able.
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir Rodney on 2015-10-20, 03:02:21
Getnlemen:

what is your favorite knight in armour ensemble from 1066 - 1546, both aesthetically and functionally? Please share a picture, if you are able.

Mid to late fourteenth century English / French transitional armour is my absolute favorite.

The effigy of Sir Philip de Peletoot, dated to approximately 1361, is a good example.  (Plus he’s got a really cool surname!)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Mike W. on 2015-10-20, 17:15:25
Without a doubt, late 15th century German Gothic fluted armor
http://imgur.com/4K2Tk6N
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2015-10-20, 17:29:05
Without a doubt, late 15th century German Gothic fluted armor
http://imgur.com/4K2Tk6N

Ditto. By far my all-time favorite.

Recently, I've also grown fond of the transitional stuff seen around the turn of the 13th/14th centuries—when they were starting to experiment with more plate armor. I find the evolution of it fascinating.
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2015-10-27, 03:10:45
What & who am I fighting?
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir William on 2015-10-28, 19:05:30
My favorite of all time is cap-a-pied maille hauberk w/integral coif and mittens, maille chausses; always been a fan of the Templars and warriors of the early Crusades.  With that said, maille is getting better at least in terms of fit and customization but as anyone may tell you- plate bits are where its at.  So, as I'm slowly making my way into the 14th Century, here is the effigy I'm going to aim for a resemblance to Gunther von Schwarzburg, 1349, Germany, (but with a slightly earlier coat of plates a la Otto von Orlamunde, also of Germany, 1340):

(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/gunther_von_schwarzburg_a_s15_r749.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Naythan on 2015-10-29, 16:50:58
Milanese is pretty magical :)
(http://www.nlhf.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/martin-harness.jpg)
But I think Id go with Maximillian.
(http://www.beyondcriticism.com/gurewitsch/pics/large/15.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir James A on 2015-10-31, 06:11:52
Dr Tobias Capwell's black harness (that he sold! :( )

(https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0322/59/1400685189561.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2015-11-01, 06:12:56
I'm going to change my answer to "a kit where I get to use this helm": http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/hist%20helm/klap%2001.html

(http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/hist%20helm/Mvc-151f.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: CrossT on 2015-11-08, 01:34:30
1358 England

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/11140017_450415301792890_2488349856691903827_n.jpg?oh=26f64a2d68378b788aff1e6fc9ed6c78&oe=56C2D3A2)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir William on 2015-11-09, 15:46:05
Dr Tobias Capwell's black harness (that he sold! :( )

(https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0322/59/1400685189561.jpg)

Ugh, why didn't I mention that one- that's like the ultimate, I'd never be able to afford that w/out selling a major organ dream harness.  Who was the lucky *expletive*?  :)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Jon Blair on 2015-11-11, 16:15:47
I've always been partial to late 14C/early 15C English, but early crusades are great too.
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: CrossT on 2015-12-17, 02:44:34
I totally agree Jon, I love 1100 to 1450( at the latest) and those effiges are wonderful examples of Armor within that time frame!! I perfer the first example as I loveeee the 14th ct but the Henry V era was special and great armor came out of it. So I love both
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir James A on 2015-12-19, 22:23:34
Dr Tobias Capwell's black harness (that he sold! :( )

(https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0322/59/1400685189561.jpg)

Ugh, why didn't I mention that one- that's like the ultimate, I'd never be able to afford that w/out selling a major organ dream harness.  Who was the lucky *expletive*?  :)

Second hand info, but I've heard it was sold to a private collector in Mexico (or New Mexico?). But the blackening was all removed, and it is not available for public viewing.

And you can't buy one ever again, because MacPherson made it. However, it *is* featured over a number of pages in Dr Tobias Capwell's new English Armor 1400-1450 book, so we can drool over it there.
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-04-19, 02:22:47
Alright Gentleman, here is my ideal harness. 

circa 1480-85

(http://www.ageofarmour.com/images/gothic_armour.jpg)


http://illusionarmoring.com/hgoth.html (http://illusionarmoring.com/hgoth.html)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir James A on 2016-04-20, 11:10:21
^ Sigismund of Tyrol replica, I believe
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-04-21, 01:35:22
Quote
Sigismund of Tyrol replica, I believe

Bingo!   ;D

Illusion Armoring has a similar suit that I have in mind.  Though a replica of that suit would be something worth an expensive penny for.  When I look at it, I think that if I could get inside that harness, I more likely would easily fit into it. 
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: MDJouster on 2016-05-30, 14:30:05
That armour was associated with Sigismund for years but lately I have heard reference that people now think that it was actually Maximillians.  At any rate there is similar harness to it made by the same armourer (Lorenz Helmschmied) at about the same time that was conclusively Maximillians. Both are on display at KMV in Vienna.  My wife Krissies armour is based on another simpler cuiras made for him at the same time by the same armourer on display there.
At one point the Sigismund harness was definitely my favorite but as I have gotten more interested in jousting a simpler more dedicated piece caught my attention.  There is a 1510 dutch made stechzeug cuiras with helm and arms at the KMV collection which can be seen in Leib Rust Kammer the KMV Catalog.   Toby had something similar made after the blackened and gilded English armour for use in steel coronel jousting.  His helm was an insanely thick 7mm at some points and made by Jeff Wasson if I recall correctly.  I don't know of any pictures on line though.
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: MDJouster on 2016-05-31, 22:40:19
Just found this...Look about an hour in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COAIQPsgZWY
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-06-01, 03:06:31
Quote
That armour was associated with Sigismund for years but lately I have heard reference that people now think that it was actually Maximillians.  At any rate there is similar harness to it made by the same armourer (Lorenz Helmschmied) at about the same time that was conclusively Maximillians. Both are on display at KMV in Vienna.  My wife Krissies armour is based on another simpler cuiras made for him at the same time by the same armourer on display there.
At one point the Sigismund harness was definitely my favorite but as I have gotten more interested in jousting a simpler more dedicated piece caught my attention.  There is a 1510 dutch made stechzeug cuiras with helm and arms at the KMV collection which can be seen in Leib Rust Kammer the KMV Catalog.   Toby had something similar made after the blackened and gilded English armour for use in steel coronel jousting.  His helm was an insanely thick 7mm at some points and made by Jeff Wasson if I recall correctly.  I don't know of any pictures on line though.

Interesting.  My reason for choosing this one particular harness is because it the exact specific Goth style that pertains to my time period (1480-85) which would be in the middle to the end of the War of the Roses. I have done some research and found different types such those seen in the following images (same way that fashion trends change over time, the same is true with the changing styles in Armor):

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Ms._KK5012_67v.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Ms._KK5012_72v.jpg)
Peter Falkner - 1495

(http://wiktenauer.com/images/b/b5/Cgm_1507_20v.jpg)
(http://wiktenauer.com/images/f/fc/Cod.S.554_050.jpg)
(http://wiktenauer.com/images/d/de/MS_Chart.B.1021_20v.jpg)
(http://wiktenauer.com/images/c/cd/Cgm_1507_22v.jpg)
(http://wiktenauer.com/images/0/0d/Cgm_1507_23v.jpg)
(http://wiktenauer.com/images/6/67/Cgm_1507_30v.jpg)
(http://wiktenauer.com/images/f/ff/Cgm_1507_36v.jpg)
Paulus Kal - circa 1480

(http://wiktenauer.com/images/f/f9/Cod.Pal.germ.430_001v.png)
Johannes Lecküchner - 1482

(http://wiktenauer.com/images/6/60/Cod.icon._394a_35v.jpg)
Hans Talhoffer - 1467

Point in summary: saying the phrase German Gothic can be ambiguous unless if going for a certain design on the breastplate, besegaus or no besegaus, tassets or no tassets etc.   So you can say that my ideal harness would easily fit in with more Paulus Kal, Peter Falkner, Johanes Lecküchner as opposed to Talhoffer. 
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir James A on 2016-06-01, 15:15:07
Just found this...Look about an hour in.

That was the pattern for Sir Ian's armor, yep
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-06-15, 13:39:25
While in the discussion of the ideal harness, this is what I am looking for in summation. 

(http://illusionarmoring.com/hg2.JPG)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2016-07-03, 23:12:00
Chris Gilman, a Hollywood prop guy & KSCA made this for under $100usd in materials. Even shaped the cannons of the forearms with Big Gulp cups.

Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: jason77 on 2016-07-20, 00:46:53
The following image is an armor based upon the grave image of Rezzo von Beichlingen which is dated from 1360. The etching is a stylistic design found much later in history but I love this design and hope to save up the money for it after I finish with a house renovation.

(https://armstreet.com/catalogue/full/armor-full-kit-knight-of-fortune-circa-xiv-7.jpg)

* This image is from armstreet.com
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Lord Dane on 2016-07-20, 19:30:30
You have good taste, Jason. Armstreet.com does make some great stuff. That is my current spring steel kit in the making (expect delivery end of month) for ACL fighting. Worth the money. :)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: jason77 on 2016-07-20, 20:04:41
Wow, how long have you been involved in the ACL?
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: jason77 on 2016-07-20, 20:22:23
What is everyone's opinion of stainless steel armor? I've seen some US Knights in the ACL wear it and it is quite hard and it seems to make a good maintenance free armor albeit it is a poor choice for weapons for breakage reasons.
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir James A on 2016-07-21, 01:27:45
Stainless is harder on tools and costs more. Not everyone will work with it. It's popular for ACL / BOTN since that's more "sport" armor and is sort of like a "modern equipment" philosophy FOR SOME people.

If you find something you like and it's available in stainless, and you aren't doing living history, get it. Perfect for renn faire or things where you don't need high historical accuracy and want to have reduced maintenance. You'll still need to replace straps or busted rivets, but you won't have to worry about rust.
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-07-22, 04:04:36
Stainless steel in my opinion can work for Armored Combat (including Harness Fencing) and for the Ren Faire.  Living History is a complex and very expensive path to take.  More likely my kit will be in Stainless steel for the purpose of Ren Faire, Presentations and Harness Fencing.

BTW; I see we got the 14th Century Mafia going on here lol, must be some 14th Century conspiracy lol. 
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2016-07-22, 20:15:06
I don't like Stainless for helms as it doesn't deform and eat energy as well. So for armor bits that really should deform to protect the wearer it can not be good.
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-07-22, 23:00:33
Quote
I don't like Stainless for helms as it doesn't deform and eat energy as well. So for armor bits that really should deform to protect the wearer it can not be good.

If it doesn't deform, is that a good thing though?  I mean a helmet that doesn't dent or break is a good thing.  And what do you mean by eats energy?
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2016-07-23, 05:16:57
When something deforms it absorbs the incoming energy. Like a cushion or a crumple zone.

When armor dents it eats up some of the incoming energy and keeps that energy from being transferred past itself. So now it has spread out the impact via hardness and then eaten it via deformation.

Like how sparring rapiers work to protect the opponent. If they didn't then both the one hit, and the hitters wrist, would be unhappy right?

Talk to SCA fighters or HMB/ACL guys enough and you'll hear stories about times they got creamed and felt nothing even though their armor was badly dented and potentially destroyed by the incoming blow because the armor worked as designed and in deformation, weight, and spreading of impact ate up the incoming energy. Armor works partly by taking advantage of the physics behind an Inelastic Collision (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inelastic_collision) to reduce the amount of energy transferred to the wearer.

Yes one can use these same physics to hurt someone's brain (see a boxing glove) but the armor, when it dents (aka deformation), is helping prevent harm to the wearer which becomes important when you start talking about brains in helms.

Stainless steel doesn't deform as easily and thus once all the energy that can be eaten via mass & padding has been the rest is transferred to the wearer. Not too bad for gauntlets, rather bad for helms. This is why we see injuries in a gauge of stainless that would not have occurred with mild or spring.

And isn't controlled deformation a key component of longswords, rapiers, armingswords, and zweihanders too?

Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: jason77 on 2016-07-23, 20:36:03
That's a very good explanation. Thank you.
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Sir Rodney on 2016-07-24, 05:15:29
A quick glace at my mild steel SCA helm confirms Thorsteinn's theory.  Glancing surfaces combined with energy absorption (dents) have saved my skull many times.  Plus, the dents look cool.   8)
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2016-07-31, 00:32:51
Quote
When something deforms it absorbs the incoming energy. Like a cushion or a crumple zone.

When armor dents it eats up some of the incoming energy and keeps that energy from being transferred past itself. So now it has spread out the impact via hardness and then eaten it via deformation.

Like how sparring rapiers work to protect the opponent. If they didn't then both the one hit, and the hitters wrist, would be unhappy right?

Talk to SCA fighters or HMB/ACL guys enough and you'll hear stories about times they got creamed and felt nothing even though their armor was badly dented and potentially destroyed by the incoming blow because the armor worked as designed and in deformation, weight, and spreading of impact ate up the incoming energy. Armor works partly by taking advantage of the physics behind an Inelastic Collision to reduce the amount of energy transferred to the wearer.

Yes one can use these same physics to hurt someone's brain (see a boxing glove) but the armor, when it dents (aka deformation), is helping prevent harm to the wearer which becomes important when you start talking about brains in helms.

Stainless steel doesn't deform as easily and thus once all the energy that can be eaten via mass & padding has been the rest is transferred to the wearer. Not too bad for gauntlets, rather bad for helms. This is why we see injuries in a gauge of stainless that would not have occurred with mild or spring.

And isn't controlled deformation a key component of longswords, rapiers, armingswords, and zweihanders too?

Gotcha, thank you for the explanation.  Now I understand.  You were saying that it is susceptible to dentures.  Looks like I will have to do more research.

Quote
A quick glace at my mild steel SCA helm confirms Thorsteinn's theory.  Glancing surfaces combined with energy absorption (dents) have saved my skull many times.  Plus, the dents look cool.


I like that, more like battle scars proven by the many dents on the helmet. 

Looks like spring steel is the better choice. 
Title: Re: Your Ideal Armour 1066 - 1546
Post by: Tancreid de Rouen on 2018-11-28, 21:41:13
Honestly something like this is my favorite aesthetically. It may be because Ive always been a nerd for the crusades but it just looks right haha. The kit Im putting together is earlier (1170's) but this... this is just beautiful