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Main => The Armoury => The Workshop => Topic started by: Eva de Carduus Weald on 2014-09-30, 19:19:40

Title: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Eva de Carduus Weald on 2014-09-30, 19:19:40
I am looking into perhaps going leather for a while rather than lace, er um, rather than metal.:D

Seriously though, I am curious if anyone knows anything about 1356-ish leather armor. What kinds there were, how they were made, style, etc?
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Thorsteinn on 2014-10-01, 04:43:00
I too am wanting to learn. :)
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-10-01, 12:57:37

Oh boy, unfortunately, I think information is pretty sparse. We know Cuir Bouilli armor existed, but as far as I know, the manuscripts and surviving depictions are pretty scarce. And I'm not sure if there are any surviving examples of the armor itself, since leather is one of those things that tends to decay over centuries.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. It's not one of my strong areas.
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Ian on 2014-10-01, 13:58:51
That's a can of worms...

The notion of cap-a-pie leather armor is much more fantasy than reality.  There is definitely evidence for cuir bouilli (hardened leather) armor pieces in the 14th century, like hardened leather skull caps, archer's bracers and there is a surviving rerebrace that is thought to have been worn over maille (housed at the British Museum).  And of course you have leather as the foundation for splinted armors and possibly coats of plates. 

It's hard to tell if the intent of any manuscript illuminations were trying to depict leather.  Thick leather was also not cheap, so it wouldn't have been a poor man's armor like the modern aesthetic would think of it.

If you go back to the Dark Ages then the can of worms gets even worse.  It's a widely held belief in popular culture and among some reenactors that the Vikings and Saxons were using leather armor.  Of that there is virtually NO evidence at all.  The only surviving leather armor from that period is a lamellar cuirass attributed to the Rus or another steppe culture.

What specifically are you envisioning the use of leather for in the 14th century?
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-10-01, 21:54:30
This Video makes a statement that poor Knights could be found wearing hardened leather. And Mike loades is involved with it.
(When I say poor I mean less wealthy)
He says it at 10:50
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jAAFczOyLVo
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-10-02, 11:09:59
http://www.museumofleathercraft.org/publications/ (http://www.museumofleathercraft.org/publications/)
Leather & the Warrior (1981)
By John Waterer hardback £27.00 paperback £17.50

buy this book. then do a book report on what it says lol. i only have a few pages from it
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Eva de Carduus Weald on 2014-10-07, 22:00:26
Hmm well I have a buddy who does absolutely wonderful leather work, he tells me he has leather for armor he was going to make for himself but no longer fights so doesn't want the armor. For me I want it for my guard persona so it doesn't need to be functional per se but I would like it as historically accurate as possible. He tells me if I can provide him with documentation on accuracy, as he too prefers to make accurate, then he will think about making me some. :)
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-10-07, 22:43:20
your really not going to find any. honestly i think it wasn't used save for tourney armour in later periods.
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Sir William on 2014-10-08, 16:05:57
I think there's resistance to the idea because there's no widespread historical references to leather harnesses being used, outside of fictional works.  The few and far between references there are tend to be incomplete and as a result, of little use to the argument for.

I wish there were extant sources like there are of the metal variety, but there aren't.  So far as I know.
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Eva de Carduus Weald on 2014-10-08, 17:29:11
Ah well it was worth a shot, thank you to everyone who replied. I am sure we will work something out. :) Maybe bracers or some such.
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Sir Brian on 2014-10-08, 17:37:56
Why does it have to be historically accurate if you won’t be using it specifically for living history events? If you want leather armor for LARP/HEMA/SCA fighting then that is a very viable compromise on weight, functionality and cost.  ;)
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-10-09, 01:13:18
ya man. i mean if thats what you want then get it. always be happy :)
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Eva de Carduus Weald on 2014-10-10, 13:50:54
:D I might just anyway. Mostly I think the accuracy was his thing more than mine. Personally I follow the old guideline, does it work? If yes then go for it. I mean don't get me wrong, I like to be as historically accurate as I can be but I can't afford a lot so my tent is still modern, while I am going for the most inexpensive yet as historically accurate feast gear I can, and my garb is mostly made of linen, I will not hand sew the whole darn thing so sewing machine is my friend.

There is only so far I can realistically bend to accuracy. Granted if I could get my pavilion from WA to here I would totally sleep in that instead. Well that and hauling it places.
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: scott2978 on 2014-10-11, 01:00:44
Like with many things, with armor one must start from the outset by asking the question: "What do I want this for?" The answer will inform your very first steps and all the following ones. And keep in mind, you can always change directions later and do something else. You may not be able to use much of a D&D LARP outfit when switching to mid-14th century knight, but there's no reason you can't have two outfits for two different functions. I mean check out Sir Wolf, he's got like 30 different kits.

If you do decide to go historical though, there's more to it than just going to living history events. The incredible journey of learning it has taken me on to get all the details as right as I can was something I never expected. Because to be truly historical, you have to know a lot of things that aren't obvious. Start with a harness and pick any single piece of it. To be historical or rather to even know if you're being historical or not, you really need to know everything from what material it was made from and why that material and not another one that the same craftsperson had at their disposal, to things like what impact his religion had on how that guy made that item? Looking deeper into everything from points to swords will reveal to you one bit at a time an entire world, and with each new piece of the puzzle the entire picture and feeling of medieval life will come into greater focus in your minds eye. All that from undertaking to build a historical armor!

Maybe that all makes me sound like a royal nerd, but it really has been an amazing journey of discovery.

Scott

Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Sir Nate on 2014-10-13, 04:07:47
Like with many things, with armor one must start from the outset by asking the question: "What do I want this for?" The answer will inform your very first steps and all the following ones. And keep in mind, you can always change directions later and do something else. You may not be able to use much of a D&D LARP outfit when switching to mid-14th century knight, but there's no reason you can't have two outfits for two different functions. I mean check out Sir Wolf, he's got like 30 different kits.

If you do decide to go historical though, there's more to it than just going to living history events. The incredible journey of learning it has taken me on to get all the details as right as I can was something I never expected. Because to be truly historical, you have to know a lot of things that aren't obvious. Start with a harness and pick any single piece of it. To be historical or rather to even know if you're being historical or not, you really need to know everything from what material it was made from and why that material and not another one that the same craftsperson had at their disposal, to things like what impact his religion had on how that guy made that item? Looking deeper into everything from points to swords will reveal to you one bit at a time an entire world, and with each new piece of the puzzle the entire picture and feeling of medieval life will come into greater focus in your minds eye. All that from undertaking to build a historical armor!

Maybe that all makes me sound like a royal nerd, but it really has been an amazing journey of discovery.

Scott


And what I would add to that, is that all journeys take time.
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Henrik Granlid on 2014-12-26, 01:33:03
Well gentlemen, let's not be too hasty in dismissing this entirely. We DO have a few examples of leather armour with no visible metal reinforcement from the 14th century, one of them being this amazing effigy with leather arms and leather legs.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1623517375/in/set-72157602468647900/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1623517375/in/set-72157602468647900/)

Note how his greaves are laced together and how there are no discernable hinges on the fully enclosing arm harness. Furthermore, there are no lines or rivets to indicate splints. At most, the ridges have something to do with a splinted defense, but there is nothing much that speaks for it.

Furthermore, we also have the bazubands found in Estonia:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1cc38b3127ccefeb2e27de0eb00000040O02AaOXDNq5btAe3nwc/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/ (http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1cc38b3127ccefeb2e27de0eb00000040O02AaOXDNq5btAe3nwc/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)

They do not seem to have metal bands, the rivets appear to be only for decoration. The shape matches those seen on German effigies at the time (although those do have metal bands on the outside at least).


Then there are stained glass windows from Munster in Germany

http://www.soniahalliday.com/images/GE99-2-12.jpg (http://www.soniahalliday.com/images/GE99-2-12.jpg)

http://www.soniahalliday.com/images/GE99-6-12.jpg (http://www.soniahalliday.com/images/GE99-6-12.jpg)

There's also the standing collar worn outside of maille on an effigy on a German church, again, 14th century.

http://s196.photobucket.com/user/shinumo/media/Wells2.jpg.html (http://s196.photobucket.com/user/shinumo/media/Wells2.jpg.html)


Now, the difficult thing is the body, since I have no sources for body armours exclusively made out of leather. However. There are plenty of examples of coats of plate being made, seemingly with a leather outer shell, this means that, to get a good 14th century impression, all in leather, you could simply make the outer shell and add a charming rivet pattern. Sure, you won't get the visible edges of metallic armour underneath, but it will certainly look good enough and, again, be made entirely out of leather.

Some inspiration for your rivets:
http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoas_rustningar/ (http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoas_rustningar/)

These are all reconstructions of the Wisby armours. As such, they'd be great for a period of about 1330-1345-ish for knights and later for foot soldiers.

I hope this helped in your quest for leather! There are some more examples out there of knights with elaborate patterns carved into their rearbraces and into what some people believe to be a leather covering for kneecops, one effigy in particular stands out, but I can't bring him to mind.


Edit: Found some more leather armour:

Italian painting from 1350 to 1370, most googlings turn up 1357.
http://www.wga.hu/art/l/lorenzo/venezian/predell1.jpg (http://www.wga.hu/art/l/lorenzo/venezian/predell1.jpg)

Cuir bouili rearbracer, second/third quarter from museum Somethingsomething in London:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=52277&stc=1 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=52277&stc=1)
Title: Re: A question, a query, of the leather, the leather!
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-12-26, 15:12:02
cant see the first picture, the second picture is tourney armour and has been documented as such if i'm not mistaken.