ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2010-10-14, 15:40:08
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I was looking on wikipedia recently since I saw some discussion about heraldry that raised the question of use of black as a color, and also separately on someone's website I noticed a quartered division using two colors (no metal), namely red and blue.
Apparently (and I've been neglecting this), it seems that it's OK for colors to touch colors in the base division of the shield's field. Additionally, while we tend to think of black working both as a color and a metal (comparing it to a fur), this wasn't usually the case in western Europe. It usually was strictly a color, so a black charge over a color or vice-versa wouldn't always have been acceptable.
Anyway, check this out. It's insane:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grenville_Diptych_edit2.jpg
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Grenville_Diptych_edit2.jpg/527px-Grenville_Diptych_edit2.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grenville_Diptych_edit2.jpg)
Wikipedia's heraldry page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry)
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Would I be totally wrong if I just chose one of those as my CoA? I ask because I get the feeling that for most of you guys, what you wear has some sort of connection to you- like a familial crest; my ancestry would be cost-prohibitive to track down as at least on my Mom's side, there's an adoption for which we cannot find the original parents. I could CLAIM ancestry from anywhere though, so long as I didn't need to furnish papers of nobility. lol
Wait a minute, I just looked this up- this was for ONE person only? 719 quarterings of the same family? GEEZ. It'd cost the price of at least an econobox car to get something like that made for a surcoat and shield!!!!
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Yep, that was one set of arms. It's crazy.
Some people do track down family arms and work from there, but it's common practice in groups like the SCA and so on to make something up for yourself that means something to yourself. Sir Brian and I both invented ours from scratch, using symbolism that means something to ourselves.
In my case, I wrote up a small web page describing the meaning of the elements of mine, though I didn't go into much detail on what the personal origins of them are and why I wanted them in there, mostly the historical meanings of those charges, etc: http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/my-coa.html (http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/my-coa.html)
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This is a really great starting point to understand the rules of heraldry. It's the SCA's interpretation, so it's not 100% accurate to historical heraldry (though it's really good), but then again, there were variations across regions and centuries, as with anything.
http://heraldry.sca.org/primer/ (http://heraldry.sca.org/primer/)
As an aside, I got my arms approved in the SCA (they consider the ankh valid though it's not a historical charge, but I discuss that on my heraldry page).
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Wow,
Yep, that was one set of arms. It's crazy.
Some people do track down family arms and work from there, but it's common practice in groups like the SCA and so on to make something up for yourself that means something to yourself. Sir Brian and I both invented ours from scratch, using symbolism that means something to ourselves.
In my case, I wrote up a small web page describing the meaning of the elements of mine, though I didn't go into much detail on what the personal origins of them are and why I wanted them in there, mostly the historical meanings of those charges, etc: http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/my-coa.html (http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/my-coa.html)
Didn't go into much detail? That was a wealth of information- and an excellent starting point for me to begin understanding what all of it entails. It seems more intricate than putting together a harness, requiring more thought on the matter.
Note to self: Creative juices- now would be the time to start flowing!
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Sir Edward is correct in that I developed mine from scratch. My original and current CoA was the combined arms of me and my wife’s. The gold griffin on green being mine and the white rose on black hers. I used a counter-charged cross to divide or quarter the fields. Of course I had since learned that I made a few mistakes in my CoA which incited me to revamp it. ;)
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Didn't go into much detail? That was a wealth of information- and an excellent starting point for me to begin understanding what all of it entails. It seems more intricate than putting together a harness, requiring more thought on the matter.
Note to self: Creative juices- now would be the time to start flowing!
Well, not much detail on why they were important symbols to me. Plenty of detail on what they mean. If you understand the distinction. :)
But yeah, I think the important thing is to come up with something that looks good, and feels right. Not everyone has symbolism that is personally meaningful in the same sort of way. You can start with charges you want, or you can start with a meaning you want to convey and then research what charges represent those. Or you can just use something you think looks cool, or derives from a nickname.
Just be aware that if it's overly simplistic, like just a dragon on a single-color field, it's probably been done or is very close to someone else's. Anything with multiple charges has a much better chance of being unique. This uniqueness may not matter to you, of course, unless you get into a larger group like the SCA. That's why I took the time to register mine, so that whether I get more active with them or not, my uniqueness is protected there, and I can happily paint up shields and banners and display them proudly without anyone complaining. :)
The way the SCA does things is very close to European standards. For instance, any new CoA has to have at least two "points" of difference from any other registered arms. I think several things saved mine from having to undergo changes, because swords on Bends are very common, as are dragons. But the fact that I did the Bend in "sinister" (rare), the dragon is in a "couchant" position (also rare), and I combined them with an ankh (pretty uncommon), all worked to my favor.
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I do understand the distinction- since it has personal meaning, the symbology might be different for a viewer than what it means for you. All good.
Understood also with regard to variety...unfortunately, my tastes so far run to something along the lines of those of the English Kings prior to the Hundred Years' War. Three lions rampant on a field of red, something about gules, which I haven't figured out what that means. Heraldry seems comical at first til you realize just how important it was to be able to recognize friend from foe on the battlefield. They could've just ridden around in open faced bascinets, that would've made things very interesting, wouldn't it? :)
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Well, it was more than just recognizing people with their visors down. It was also to recognize them at a distance, and most importantly, to recognize them by reputation without having met them face to face previously.
Gules is red. All the colors have specific heraldic names.
Colors:
Vert = green,
Gules = red,
Purpure = purple,
Azure = blue,
sable = black
And the metals:
Or = gold/yellow,
Argent = Silver/white
Detail here: http://heraldry.sca.org/primer/tinctures.html (http://heraldry.sca.org/primer/tinctures.html)
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Here is another site that has some pretty extensive explanations of the different charges. :)
http://bdweb9271a.bluedomino.com/learning.html (http://bdweb9271a.bluedomino.com/learning.html)
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hey how did you find a picture of my new shield?
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hey how did you find a picture of my new shield?
LOL wouldn't that be something though?
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I thought of something funny and whipped this up...
Argent, three ghouls gules
(http://modernchivalry.org/pictures/argent-3-ghouls-gules2.gif)
EDIT: Changed image to a shield shape
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That would go perfect with my Zombie Apocalypse Raider outfit! Maybe with a sword sticking through its chest, even.
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Oh, one tip I wanted to bring up-- when it comes time that you want to work on your personal heraldry, the "KISS" principle applies ("keep it simple, stupid"). You want something that won't be a major PITA to paint or embroider, and historically most of the designs that would have actually been on a knight's shield, particularly in the earlier mail-wearing periods, wouldn't have been terribly complex. Geometric shapes started out being much more common than animals, for instance.
On mine, I'm guilty of making what some people call "resume heraldry".. I fight with swords, so I want a sword on there. That sort of thing. Also, dragons tend to get overused, and are difficult to paint.
The trick is to come up with something that's elegantly simple, and yet unique.
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That's the hard part, I figure...keeping it simple. I'll need something that someone else will be able to paint onto my shield! lol
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Oh, one more tip-- If you decide to go the route I did, and register your heraldry with the SCA, here's the submission information:
Maryland and Virginia are in the kingdom of Atlantia. Heraldry submissions are through the local kingdom. Submission fee is $10 per element (persona name must be registered with or in advance of your device), so if this is your first time registering anything, name and device together are $20.
http://herald.atlantia.sca.org/success.htm (http://herald.atlantia.sca.org/success.htm)
I thought you need to be a paying member, but I don't see them mentioning that anywhere. It might be possible to just register the arms without actually signing up.
Forms are here:
http://herald.atlantia.sca.org/forms.htm (http://herald.atlantia.sca.org/forms.htm)
Ideally it's good to consult with a herald in the SCA first, since they want documentation of authenticity, which they can provide on your behalf. I did mine at Pennsic at the herald's tent. They had tables covered with books, and you can just flip through it for period names and the like. My arms were already painted on my shield, and I just brought a print-out of it, so that part was easy (and thankfully they didn't ask for changes), though they spent more than an hour looking through prior registrations for potential conflicts.
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Interesting that you can register the arms without being a member. I might do so, in case I ever decide to return to SCA. I still hate the concept of picking a 'persona' to play since I like a wide range of time and can't pick a favorite. When I was attending fighter practices, my name was "New James" because I couldn't come up with one. :D
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I could be wrong about that, I just didn't see anything in the registration instructions about verifying that you're paid up.
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I have a name picked out already, would I still have to go through their book? Good stuff w/the links and forms, $20 is not a lot to pay to have it set for posterity...well, as far as the SCA is concerned. And who knows, maybe I'll join up w/them one day.
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Yeah, I think they will probably still want some documentation of precedent that the name existed in period. It could be anything historical, probably, like a census from back in the day, or whatever. Basically they look for a book reference with title and page number.
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Huh...that might actually be cooler than a made-up name. I'll look into it- thanks for the info, Sir Edward.
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BTW, it's just for historical believability. That is, you can make up the name as a whole, but each name within it has to be real. I went with "Edward Bonagarde" which is not a historical person, but "edward" and "bonagarde" are documented names.
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Oooohhhh...I get it now. Even better...as there were a lot less people then than there are now, might be two such-and-such's walkin around w/identical names. Not unheard of, I know.
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lucky me. Charles is period and Russell is period so i get to keep my name ;)
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I would have to change the spelling of my surname to pass for an English knight. But who cares! :-)
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Well by happy happenstance my personae name is period as well!
i.e. Brian FitzMatthais FitzGerald. ;)
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so it's Sir Brian illegitimate son Gerald of illegitimate son of Matthais? hehehe jkjk i take it you mean to use the Fitz in the Norman way meaning "son of" and not illegitimate son of as used later
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Actually yes to both questions! ;)
The Fitzgerald’s and all the Geraldines of Ireland were all descendants of this Norman noble.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_FitzGerald,_Lord_of_Lanstephan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_FitzGerald,_Lord_of_Lanstephan)
Later generations were often named Maurice or Gerald and they were all extremely prolific as well s indiscriminant! ;)
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I'm sure there never was a 'Julius' as it were. Hate my first name. lol
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I'm sure there never was a 'Julius' as it were. Hate my first name. lol
Hate it? I think it's kinda cool. :)
I never used to be that fond of mine. But I've come to appreciate it since it's slightly uncommon today, and it's completely period. That, and when I run into another Ed, I can say "Two Eds are better than one!!" :)
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Hail Caesar of the frozen orange beverages! ;) you can smack me for it later.
ya I always hated Charles. esp when used with my middle and last name... that was usually a death warrant from my mother
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LMAO yea, I've heard that one...not as much as you'd think. I guess Orange Julius isn't that popular. I happen to like both Edward and Charles for names...both were great kings. The only Julius worth mentioning in antiquity was a power-hungry despot clothed plebe sentiment.
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Paladin: Knight, quaffer of the Orange Julius! :D
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LMAO...I might run w/that one day.