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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Jason Simonds on 2014-04-29, 19:00:09
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So I am thinking about doing Late 14th Century. Who wants to help me put a kit together??
I will need to get pretty much everything from top to bottom.
As far as clothing items, I think I am capable of making most of them myself just need patterns.
I am trying to keep my budget to around $1000.00
And Go!
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soft kit (clothing) or armour or all together?
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All of it.
Right now I have tall boots for regular Ren Faire attire, but not shoes for armor.
I will need all forms of clothing, top to bottom.
Also need armor pieces from top to bottom.
Any recommendations are greatly appreciated.
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Well you said on Saturday that you'd probably make your own arming clothes right? That will save you quite a bit there and it is where you want to start. A decent riveted flat ring habergeon would probably be next. Legs are going to be a challenge on that budget though. :-\
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For the sake of full disclosure, you've picked a terrible time period for the budget you've selected, assuming you're interested in a knightly or even man-at-arms kit. A full harness of 14th century plate armor and appropriate soft kit cannot be had for less than $1,000 combined unless you really just want costume pieces.
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Well that is just a starting budget. Looking at starting my kit, $1000.00 is what I have available now to get going.
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Well that is just a starting budget. Looking at starting my kit, $1000.00 is what I have available now to get going.
Ah, well then I would advise starting from the skin outward, and beginning with a soft kit, and then arming garments, and then armor.
If you aren't afraid to sew, The Medieval Tailor's Assistant (http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Tailors-Assistant-Garments-1200-1500/dp/0896762394) is a good resource for learning how to pattern, and has example garments broken out by time period.
Run a search on http://manuscriptminiatures.com/ (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/) and familiarize yourself with the typical fashions of the late 14th century, and if you want to make it nice an accurate, try to narrow down your preferences by geographic location and to within a decade or two.
For armor, do the same on http://effigiesandbrasses.com/ (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/).
Once you've got a good handle on the visual aesthetic of the late 14th century, then you can start some sewing projects or purchases depending on what you decide.
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Yeah that is the plan. I am planning on making as much as possible as far as garments are concerned. Definitely need to get some more research done.
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Oh boy, are you in for it Jason! ;)
At least you're approaching it w/a plan in mind...I think I'll cry if I ever sit down to tabulate just how much I've spent on weapons and armor since I started. Really cry. lol
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Yeah, I don't think I have enough time to complete my kit by start of MD Faire but I'm gonna give it a go.
First I need to get busy on the Soft side of the kit, and start locating the rest to begin purchases.
Please feel free to leave links for items that you think will suit me for late 14th century.
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Looking at this helm as an option.
http://www.amazon.com/Szco-Supplies-Brass-Crusader-Helmet/dp/B007XP1ECS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398894256&sr=8-1&keywords=crusader+helm (http://www.amazon.com/Szco-Supplies-Brass-Crusader-Helmet/dp/B007XP1ECS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398894256&sr=8-1&keywords=crusader+helm)
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That helmet is very much out of date by the late 14th century.
The late 14th century helmets would include bascinets of different styles, (open faced, houndskull or klappvisor depending on wealth and geographic location), or chapel de fer (kettle hats).. but great helms aren't really a battlefield helmet in the late 14th.
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That helmet is very much out of date by the late 14th century.
The late 14th century helmets would include bascinets of different styles, (open faced, houndskull or klappvisor depending on wealth and geographic location), or chapel de fer (kettle hats).. but great helms aren't really a battlefield helmet in the late 14th.
Except for the Pembridge that was used until 1450's, but even then, after that point it became less of a battlefield helmet and more of a tournament helm. Usually warn with a open face bascinet or secret helm. It looks something like this Jason: http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/hist%20helm/pembridge%2001.html (http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/hist%20helm/pembridge%2001.html)
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The pembridge helm is very different helm than the one linked. Late 14th century Great Helms seems to have much more rounded features than their boxy predecessors. What may seem like small stylistic differences can mean the difference of 50 or 100 years or more. Even then, by this time as Aiden mentioned, the great helm was largely relegated to the tourney field. It would eventually morph in to the Frogmouth helms of the mid 15th century.
What I would suggest is if you like a particular helmet, or style of armor that you decide you want to base your kit around, then do just that. For example, if you love that style of helmet, than maybe a 13th century kit is what you're really after. Don't try to force armor in to an arbitrary time period if you're interested in historical accuracy. Just shift the time period to match the style of armor you're interested in.
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The pembridge helm is very different helm than the one linked. Late 14th century Great Helms seems to have much more rounded features than their boxy predecessors. What may seem like small stylistic differences can mean the difference of 50 or 100 years or more. Even then, by this time as Aiden mentioned, the great helm was largely relegated to the tourney field. It would eventually morph in to the Frogmouth helms of the mid 15th century.
I know it is a different helmet and different style, but it was to follow the category of a great helm, not that particular style.
Let me ask you this Jason. Why do you want to do a 14th century? For the armor? Favorite period of study? Are you interested in authenticity? Also what country are you going for?
Is this what you are going for? It's rather broad and not specific, but just to try and help narrow it down.
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Yeah, the more flat-topped great helms didn't extend past maybe the 1310s-1320s. Afterward, it had transitioned to the dome-topped styles (more like the Pembridge helm), which were frequently worn over a steel arming cap (Cervelliere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cervelliere)), or even over an early bascinet, which evolved out of the cervelliere.
If you want to use a great helm with plate armor, you're looking probably toward the middle of the century. I sometimes fudge it a little for the renfaire, by doing a mid 14th kit but with my regular great helm.
For Days of Knights, I brought a pembridge helm:
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2012/dok-misc/b3882.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2012/dok-misc/b3882b.jpg)
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You could go with early 14th and splinted armor and still get by with that helm if you prefer that style.
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I am trying to keep my kit as accurate as possible but with some fudging for Faire.
So maybe I should look more into the early to mid 14th Century armor.
I think I will start looking into the Splinted Armor as well, if anyone has a good source please let me know.
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Early to mid is a good choice, it leaves a lot of armor options.
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historic enterprises has a nice combo for both underwear and clothing. then order your boots from viking leather. complete clothing for less than 400 i would say.
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historic enterprises has a nice combo for both underwear and clothing. then order your boots from viking leather. complete clothing for less than 400 i would say.
I did just that. It is about $200. As for a good sources, mad matt has good looking stuff, I personally have never ordered there though: http://www.madmattsarmory.com/ (http://www.madmattsarmory.com/) and you can also try winter tree crafts: http://www.wintertreecrafts.com/ (http://www.wintertreecrafts.com/)
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both of those armourers are out of order right now. matt is having mental issues again and wtc is moving
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Matt is active on the archive and taking orders as of yesterday...
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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both of those armourers are out of order right now. matt is having mental issues again and wtc is moving
Is this a recent thing because I feel as if a lot of armorers are not taking orders at the moment?
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I like Matt's stuff and he has come a long long way over the years I have known him but I would only buy in stock stuff currently.
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A couple things. You're kind of putting the cart in front of the horse. Before even thinking about buying armor, please take the advice that you need to square away the foundation garments first. The finest armor will not function properly without well fitted arming garments underneath it all, and that armor needs to be sized to the person with those garments on. This is especially true with plate armor.
Secondly, let's try to narrow down exactly what you're looking for. Here are some representative harnesses from different time periods ranging from the late 13th century through the 14th century. Any of these float your boat? If one jumps out at you we can really narrow down what it is you should be looking for both for hard and soft kit.
Later 13th Century Templar Kit, could easily be a secular crusader instead of monastic order, predominantly maille, with steel knee cops, Bolzano style great helm
(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4329/templar08.jpg)
Later 13th / Early 14th Century secular Knight kit, still predominantly maille, with more plate features, Coat of Plates, Sugarloaf style great helm (or Bolzano still in use), more developed knee protection
(http://www.noelshack.com/uploads/EnglishMedievalKnight1200-1300-07003892.JPG)
Mid 14th Century knight, coat of plates, open faced bascinet, plate arm defenses worn beneath a short sleeved maille haubergeon, plate knees and padded cuisses (could easily do splinted cuisses as well for the thighs and splinted greaves). Could also sub in a klappvisor flat-visored bascinet, or early klappvisor with pointed visor. Wisby style gauntlets.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ko60U-g-TWs/T5ftjym-vNI/AAAAAAAAA_g/tVjuAfGcvdM/s1600/BandedWestern.jpg)
Also a mid-14th kit here, just ignore that side hinged flat visored bascinet that's not really something I've ever heard of being documented. A little more developed than the other mid 14th. Note the Pembridge Style Great Helm that can be worn over that bascinet or cervelliere.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/Deathguard1337/Knight2.png)
The archetypal Late 14th century kit, houndskull bascinet, fully developed plate harness, coat of plates or full plate cuirass, hourglass gauntlets
(http://uniforma-army.ru/img/unif52.jpg)
And to cap it off here's an early 15th century kit, Agincourt era and a little thereafter. Fully developed plate, a Great Bascinet (rigid neck defense, rounded visor)
(http://dick-k.narod.ru/Historical_Arts/English_Knight/English_Knight_11.jpg)
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Good stuff this thread.
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..........i wanna be........ a lumberjack.
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Is it wierd that all those images are saved on my phone lol. Was going to post them but it doesnt work with Iphones or Ipads.
Like Ian said, once you decide on the foundation and exact time of your garmet you can begin off on the right foot. If you want garmet too, you can get some from historic enterprises (recomend getting one of the packages) which have their periods in by the century catagories and are for the most part accurate. Or, make your own like me and many others to get the perfect size and fit. In addition, you can buy some cheap, nice quality gambesons from KoA
..........i wanna be........ a lumberjack.
Im a lumberjack and I don't care, I work all night and work al... oh never mind.
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Definitely think I will go with mid 14th. century. I like all aspects of what is pictured. Really like the more plated side, but the splints are great too. First and foremost need to look at proper garments and footwear for this period.
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OK, here is the Garment set I am looking at.
http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-14th15th-century-underwear-p-1307.html (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-14th15th-century-underwear-p-1307.html)
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OK, here is the Garment set I am looking at.
http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-14th15th-century-underwear-p-1307.html (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-14th15th-century-underwear-p-1307.html)
Awesome! You can also get a pair of shoes too. Remember to keep in mind what country and social class your going for. Viking leather crafts have nice pairs, not the most historically accurate, but play the part well enough. it best to get the vibram soles instead of their regular soles because the leather soles they make are inaccurate and slippery. All they do is add a rigged rubber texture to the bottom of the shoe but when walking around no one will notice it. Most shoe companies make slippery bottom shoes. Here, take a look at these: http://www.vikingleathercrafts.com/14th-century-boots-and-shoes.html (http://www.vikingleathercrafts.com/14th-century-boots-and-shoes.html)
Another place that I that I have been told have good stuff is Revival Clothing, But I have only ever gotten anything from Historic enterprises. Just a note, historic enterprises do not pre wash clothing so that if your purchase is to large for you, you can wash it and shrink it yourself! There is usually a 14 day return policy too.
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OK, here is the Garment set I am looking at.
http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-14th15th-century-underwear-p-1307.html (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-14th15th-century-underwear-p-1307.html)
that package is well passed your intended timeline.
You don't want a vest, and you want single leg wool hose (chausses), not split hose.
All inner garments should be linen, and outer garments wool. The Alexander Cotehardie or regular Cotehardie are appropriate for an outer garment for your time. And then a wool hood to top it off.
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Ok, what would you recommend of the packages for mid 14th with a bit of plate armor.
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If you really just want to buy a package I would recommend these to get you started on a decent mid 14th century impression:
Alexander Cotehardie Combo (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/outfit-alexander-cotehardie-complete-combo-p-1600.html)
Cotehardie Combo (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/outfit-cotehardie-complete-combo-p-1599.html)
The mid 14th century was the first time that fashion tended toward tailored fitted garments.
This one will do for a more basic impression:
Bocksten Tunic Package (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/outfit-14th-century-tunic-complete-wool-p-1415.html)
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OK orders have been placed.
http://www.revivalclothing.com/agincourtarmingcotte.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/agincourtarmingcotte.aspx)
http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-14th-century-underwear-complete-wool-p-1305.html (http://historicenterprises.com/mens-c-99/outfits-packages-mens-c-99_111/package-14th-century-underwear-complete-wool-p-1305.html)
http://www.vikingleathercrafts.com/14th-century-laced-ankle-boot.html (http://www.vikingleathercrafts.com/14th-century-laced-ankle-boot.html)
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I would have held off on that arming cotte... it's about 75+ years in the future, and if you plan on wearing a maille haubergeon it provides no padding (I used to own one). If you don't plan on ever wearing maille under your plate it will do just fine (if historical accuracy is a concern, maille is always seen under plate in the 14th century, especially mid-14th century when it's still a primary protection), but will still be a slight anachronism. Maille worn over a non-padded garment is no fun. If that doesn't matter to you, then it will serve it's purpose fairly well. I believe both Sirs Nathan and James use the same garment.
**edit**
I noticed you ordered no outerwear for your upper body, was this intended, or are you intending to use the arming cotte as a doublet? Think of your kit building in 3 distinct sets of gear:
1. Soft Kit - Civilian Wear
2. Arming Garments - what will you wear under your armor, serves as a foundation and suspension point for 3.
3. Hard kit - everything that goes on the arming garments and is pretty and shiny
Each phase of the kit requires just as much attention to detail and research before making purchases, and should be purchased in that order because they all build on each other since pieces of soft kit stay on for arming garments, and all that is required to fit armor. I would argue that #2 is the most important as it will make or break #3 no matter how much money you spend on your armor.
**super double edit**
Look, here's the bottom line, I'm not trying to be the history police. When someone expresses that they want a historically accurate kit, I try to help as much as I can. What I found in developing my kit was as time went on I learned more and more what needed to be tweaked and outright discarded as historical accuracy became my focus (and it's still a long ways off). If someone else expresses interest in going that route, I don't want others to make the same and very $$costly$$ mistakes that I made along the way. I know some people don't take kindly to that kind of direction, so if it's unwanted, please let me know and I'll shut up. I just want to pimp you out in the best mid-14th century kit you're willing to get in to! :) I also need feedback from you on how deep down the rabbit hole you really want to go ;)
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Sir Ian knows his period. :) I just realized my black/brass look makes me like like the medival standard of the modern magistrate. LOL
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I just realized my black/brass look makes me like like the medival standard of the modern magistrate. LOL
But it looks sharp as all hell!
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Sorry, arming coat was my suggestion since I have one, it has worked well the last 3 years, will be totally hidden by the plate, and with the caveat that the kit isn't specifically for living history standards. My first suggestion was to make a Charles de Blois like Sir Ian did; arming coat was second. With multiple layers - undergarments, arming clothing, maille, and plate, less bulk seems to be better from my experience.
I've done a haubergeon under my plate before, and with a linen shirt, the double-layer arming coat, haubergeon, then full cuirass, it really isn't too bad. The flexibility at the elbow is the main thing for me; too much bulk, you can't bend or move right. Gambesons with the padded arms hinder too much; Chris and Brian (my brother) both had arm bending issues in gambesons with 14th century style armor; wasn't made for their size specifically, but bulk was the reason, you could see it bunching when they bent their arms.
I don't even like 9mm maille for that very reason, and I'm having heck with my voiders because of it. If I made a fully custom garment, I'd go with no padding on the arms except the wrist/cuff, back half of the elbow, a double-layer on the shoulders (shoulder fatigue reduction), and none in the torso except for a single layer on the hips. I'd consider it my "luxury" arming gear.
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Sorry, arming coat was my suggestion since I have one, it has worked well the last 3 years, will be totally hidden by the plate, and with the caveat that the kit isn't specifically for living history standards. My first suggestion was to make a Charles de Blois like Sir Ian did; arming coat was second. With multiple layers - undergarments, arming clothing, maille, and plate, less bulk seems to be better from my experience.
Cool, no worries. You explained all the concessions about that cotte then anyway, so it was an informed decision. That was my concern.
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As much as I would love to do a fully historic kit, right now I am focusing on semi accurate til I am more money stable to purchase the correct items. I am trying to limit the amount of items that I get, and only get items that would make a kit look to be accurate. Just trying to fudge things a bit til then.
So basically this is a Faire / small event kit where I can get away with not being accurate.
I will start piecing together correct items bit by bit to make a living history kit later down the road. Thanks for all input and suggestions as they will help with making my kit more accurate when I start piecing together the right stuff.
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;) you'll look great Jason. you'll have to beat the ladies and Jon off with a stick lol ahhaha
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So basically this is a Faire / small event kit where I can get away with not being accurate.
I will start piecing together correct items bit by bit to make a living history kit later down the road. Thanks for all input and suggestions as they will help with making my kit more accurate when I start piecing together the right stuff.
That's basically where I am with most of my kits. You're going to look great! I look forward to seeing how it progresses.
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;) you'll look great Jason. you'll have to beat the ladies and Jon off with a stick lol ahhaha
lol, I almost missed the "and Jon" part there. Hah! :)
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This weekend will be my current stuff. May get some items in before then but no Armor pieces ordered as of yet. I am hoping to maybe have some stuff for VARF, but I am not holding my breath. Still need to locate and order Arms and Legs of the more plate type variety for mid 14th.
As well as decide on Helmet to go with it.
I believe that a Coat of plates would be more correct for the mid 14th, please correct me if I am wrong.
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A COP was pretty typical for mid-14th. They were about 24 variants alone from the Visby excavation IIRC.
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They were in use before that as well, with examples around the start of the century, but the earlier ones were designed a little differently. They tended to have fewer plates, and longer "tails" of fabric, going with the theme of a longer surcoat.
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They were in use before that as well, with examples around the start of the century, but the earlier ones were designed a little differently. They tended to have fewer plates, and longer "tails" of fabric, going with the theme of a longer surcoat.
Even before that, they could be found a little past the mid 13th century. Here is what they generally looked like. Like Sir Edward said, they almost resembled a surcoat with plates attached.
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They were in use before that as well, with examples around the start of the century, but the earlier ones were designed a little differently. They tended to have fewer plates, and longer "tails" of fabric, going with the theme of a longer surcoat.
Even before that, they could be found a little past the mid 13th century. Here is what they generally looked like. Like Sir Edward said, they almost resembled a surcoat with plates attached.
Yep, those were the ones I was referring to. I didn't mean to exclude the 13th century. :) Thanks for the clarification.
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Ahhh Memories of Mike loades getting medieval.
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*Going
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Arming cotte is in. Now to get measurements together to prepare for the Armor purchases.... just need to find an armorer.
James do you still have that measurement sheet??
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Arming cotte is in. Now to get measurements together to prepare for the Armor purchases.... just need to find an armorer.
James do you still have that measurement sheet??
Pictures!
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Its the one from Revival clothing. Pictures tomorrow.
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Arming cotte is in. Now to get measurements together to prepare for the Armor purchases.... just need to find an armorer.
James do you still have that measurement sheet??
Find the armorer first, then worry about the measurements. Each armorer has little quirks with how they may prefer you measure.
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True..
I do have an Armorer in mind.. really like the work he did on James's stuff.
Just have to get in contact with him and see about getting the ball rolling.
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Does this set of arms have a mid to late 14th look to it??
http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184414920 (http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184414920)
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Does this set of arms have a mid to late 14th look to it??
http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184414920 (http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184414920)
They look pretty good to me. MercTailor armor is affordable, so it skips on some of the more expensive and time-consuming subtleties of super-accurate armor. But you can count on it being well made and functional, while looking pretty good.
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Does this set of arms have a mid to late 14th look to it??
http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184414920 (http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184414920)
Mid and late are not exactly the same styles so here's some things to keep in mind:
The scalloped spaulder on the ones you linked are not really that common in effigies or manuscripts for mid or late. If you care, something with a more typical spaulder would be these (this style stays the same for mid and late 14th). Also the simple rondels on the elbows are good for mid-14th. The fancier shaped elbow fans on the one you linked are more typical of late 14th:
http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=189030062 (http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=189030062)
(http://merctailor.webs.com/photos/undefined/arms%20with%20integral%20spaulders%20rondels%20reduced.jpg)
Here's an example dated to 1359 with those style arms and splint legs:
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/otho_grandison_s6_r121_medium.jpg)
As Ed said Allan at Merctailor does great work and is very affordable. I'm willing to bet he can also make what you want if you just ask him. He's on the forum too (Allan Senefelder (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25)).
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Yep, exactly what Sir Ian said. The arms you saw of mine have the "standard" spaulder just like the picture Sir Ian posted.
I got to work late today due to personal issues, and haven't had a chance to talk with Allan yet, but I'll let him know today or tomorrow as soon as I have a bit of time to call him and chat. I'll try to dig up or take some pics of the "general" 14th century armor I have that he made (fan style, etc).
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I sent Allan a message through his website, he has already responded. Gotta get measurements and decide on which arms and legs. After looking some more at the Effigies I see alot of mix between the fans and rondels, fans more so in the 1360's but there are what appear to be fans as early as 1350's. So maybe not so much with the scalloped edging til later on.
So maybe this will work for 1350 to 1360 era.
http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184414915 (http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184414915)
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Good choice! :)
Then again I'm partial to that style anyways! ;)
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When did effigies start having
The dagger being held?
Also, I did look through but did anyone mention the apparent Golden rule
Of buying under garments first? If that is truly a golden rule(which If I am not mistaken is)
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OK so measurements sent in and Armor is in the works. Got an E-mail saying they can be ready by next week.
So here is what I am getting:
Arms:
http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184414915 (http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184414915)
Legs:
http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184435476 (http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=184435476)
http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=186902983 (http://merctailor.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=186902983)
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Awesome, that's a great start!
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Truly you are well on your way! Those are the same legs I'll be going to next year for harnischfechten. Love my splinted but don't want to get them torn up from hard use. ;)
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Truly you are well on your way! Those are the same legs I'll be going to next year for harnischfechten. Love my splinted but don't want to get them torn up from hard use. ;)
Yeah, I think the steel will hold up a little better.
It's very close to what I have for my mid-14th armor, except mine tends toward a slightly earlier date with rondels instead of fans on the knees and elbows.
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Truly you are well on your way! Those are the same legs I'll be going to next year for harnischfechten. Love my splinted but don't want to get them torn up from hard use. ;)
Yeah, I think the steel will hold up a little better.
It's very close to what I have for my mid-14th armor, except mine tends toward a slightly earlier date with rondels instead of fans on the knees and elbows.
hmm, I can't remember the details on those...do you have a picture? I think I might like them better with rondels instead of the fans. :-\
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hmm, I can't remember the details on those...do you have a picture? I think I might like them better with rondels instead of the fans. :-\
Yep: (clicky)
I like them a lot, though I think the rondels are dished just a little too much. Slightly more flat, and they would be perfect.
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/faire/b2120.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2011/faire/b2120b.jpg)
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I was in deep debate over the rondels.... But I really liked the look of the fans so thats the way I went. Now I just have to make up my mind over which direction I wanna go with helm options. Also need to investigate further into what was used for the time period for neck coverage.
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Standards I am pretty sure were used at this time.
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Standards I am pretty sure were used at this time.
This is true. Except in the 14th century for whatever reason they were called pisans... (basically a maille collar).
Other than that the only neck defense would have been the aventail hanging from your bascinet.
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So then the pisan isn't absolutely necessary when wearing the bascinet and aventail?
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So then the pisan isn't absolutely necessary when wearing the bascinet and aventail?
Nope. Pisan = optional.
There is little to no evidence for any rigid neck defense (like a gorget) at this time until they start being integrated in to great bascinet designs of the early 15th century.
So you can safely get away with no neck defense except for your aventail and be perfectly historical.
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For SCA purposes if I a also currect you can sneak a leather gorget under the aventail, which I am guessing is more or less required. But you don't have to worry about that if your not doing SCA
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For SCA purposes if I a also currect you can sneak a leather gorget under the aventail, which I am guessing is more or less required. But you don't have to worry about that if your not doing SCA
For SCA purposes you can wear a pink tutu and a helmet with horns while wearing a samurai cuirass and have it all made out of a pickle barrel and be ok as long as you meet the minimum protective requirements :)
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For SCA purposes if I a also currect you can sneak a leather gorget under the aventail, which I am guessing is more or less required. But you don't have to worry about that if your not doing SCA
For SCA purposes you can wear a pink tutu and a helmet with horns while wearing a samurai cuirass and have it all made out of a pickle barrel and be ok as long as you meet the minimum protective requirements :)
You promised not to reveal details of my new kit until I could post the pics! ;)
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For SCA purposes if I a also currect you can sneak a leather gorget under the aventail, which I am guessing is more or less required. But you don't have to worry about that if your not doing SCA
For SCA purposes you can wear a pink tutu and a helmet with horns while wearing a samurai cuirass and have it all made out of a pickle barrel and be ok as long as you meet the minimum protective requirements :)
Sounds like my kinda party ;)
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For SCA purposes if I a also currect you can sneak a leather gorget under the aventail, which I am guessing is more or less required. But you don't have to worry about that if your not doing SCA
For SCA purposes you can wear a pink tutu and a helmet with horns while wearing a samurai cuirass and have it all made out of a pickle barrel and be ok as long as you meet the minimum protective requirements :)
But don't even think about entering the list without period footwear! :o
(New silly rule for us considering the rest of your kit can be as described as above.)
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But don't even think about entering the list without period footwear! :o
(New silly rule for us considering the rest of your kit can be as described as above.)
Too many people wearing sneakers, I assume?
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For SCA purposes if I a also currect you can sneak a leather gorget under the aventail, which I am guessing is more or less required. But you don't have to worry about that if your not doing SCA
For SCA purposes you can wear a pink tutu and a helmet with horns while wearing a samurai cuirass and have it all made out of a pickle barrel and be ok as long as you meet the minimum protective requirements :)
Sir Ian, that sounds like the voice of experience :)
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For SCA purposes if I a also currect you can sneak a leather gorget under the aventail, which I am guessing is more or less required. But you don't have to worry about that if your not doing SCA
For SCA purposes you can wear a pink tutu and a helmet with horns while wearing a samurai cuirass and have it all made out of a pickle barrel and be ok as long as you meet the minimum protective requirements :)
Sir Ian makes it sound like us SCA rattan fighters have no historical sense of being with our gear. Most of us like to look good while we pose and bash each other with our bamboo. But for all intensive purposes, he is correct. :) LOL
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though I think the rondels are dished just a little too much. Slightly more flat, and they would be perfect.
Ed, reached this conclusion myself a while back. In period artwork, they appear to be pretty convex, but it bothered me for a long time that when I actually made them I thought it didn't look right to my eye despite being what period depictions seemed to show ( perhaps the result of seeing a 2D depiction of something in 3D ). I shallowed them out a few years back. I'd be happy to replace them for you, no charge.
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ya you don't need any neck defense, but a pisan/standard mail collar looks pretty awesome. esp if you walk around all day without your helmet w/ aventail
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though I think the rondels are dished just a little too much. Slightly more flat, and they would be perfect.
Ed, reached this conclusion myself a while back. In period artwork, they appear to be pretty convex, but it bothered me for a long time that when I actually made them I thought it didn't look right to my eye despite being what period depictions seemed to show ( perhaps the result of seeing a 2D depiction of something in 3D ). I shallowed them out a few years back. I'd be happy to replace them for you, no charge.
Al, I can’t remember what year I picked up my rondels from you, but I love them! I can’t count the number of compliments I’ve received over the years and I always point them in your direction.
I was in an SCA tournament in 2012 and a “hold” was called when my opponent wacked a rondel and sent it flying. The marshal seemed very concerned until I proved that it was “armour bling” and the fight could continue without it. ;D
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But don't even think about entering the list without period footwear! :o
(New silly rule for us considering the rest of your kit can be as described as above.)
Too many people wearing sneakers, I assume?
Yes. The white shoes, plastic, and nylon were a bit much. Not to mention the Nike swoosh is not documentable to any SCA period! ;)
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But don't even think about entering the list without period footwear! :o
(New silly rule for us considering the rest of your kit can be as described as above.)
Too many people wearing sneakers, I assume?
Yes. The white shoes, plastic, and nylon were a bit much. Not to mention the Nike swoosh is not documentable to any SCA period! ;)
Now when you say period, do you mean period period or look period
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Now when you say period, do you mean period period or look period
Ha! :)
I meant any period within the SCA’s huge range of 1,000 years from approximately 600 AD to 1600 AD. For example, my favorite period is 1350-1375 in southern England / northern France.
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though I think the rondels are dished just a little too much. Slightly more flat, and they would be perfect.
Ed, reached this conclusion myself a while back. In period artwork, they appear to be pretty convex, but it bothered me for a long time that when I actually made them I thought it didn't look right to my eye despite being what period depictions seemed to show ( perhaps the result of seeing a 2D depiction of something in 3D ). I shallowed them out a few years back. I'd be happy to replace them for you, no charge.
That is a very generous offer, my friend! I'll let you know. Right now they're not really bothering me too much. I might combine that with something else, down the line.
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For SCA purposes if I a also currect you can sneak a leather gorget under the aventail, which I am guessing is more or less required. But you don't have to worry about that if your not doing SCA
For SCA purposes you can wear a pink tutu and a helmet with horns while wearing a samurai cuirass and have it all made out of a pickle barrel and be ok as long as you meet the minimum protective requirements :)
I was able to call "farb!" but I see you mentioned horns. :D
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Back on topic....
So Mid/Late 14th century Helms.....
Pros and cons of different types....
and GO!
Pictures are more than welcome too. :)
And yes I am still gonna get a Pembridge greathelm for Faire only purposes. :P
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Well one drawback of a klappvisier bascinet is having the visor come off and getting your nose broken.
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Well one drawback of a klappvisier bascinet is having the visor come off and getting your nose broken.
It's not proving a big issue in the SCA or ACL. Just use either a strap and/or a good locking pin, or somesuch.
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That's the thing. There are easy modern solutions, but many of these helmets historically did not have locking pins and the like. They used tension in the hinges, more often than not, to keep the visor in place.
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Well one drawback of a klappvisier bascinet is having the visor come off and getting your nose broken.
It's not proving a big issue in the SCA or ACL. Just use either a strap and/or a good locking pin, or somesuch.
It's a reference to a combat demo we did last weekend, that he was there for, and I got my nose broken while wearing a klappvisor when the visor came down. :)
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This is a mid to late 14th century helmet found on Google images.
James has one that is similar if not almost the exact same bascinet. the one that got james nose broken ;)
Here is a link to the site: http://www.wassonartistry.com/armor.php?w=helmets (http://www.wassonartistry.com/armor.php?w=helmets)
(http://www.wassonartistry.com/images/armor/helmets/IMG_3715.jpg)
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Poor Sir James just can't catch a break.
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(http://cs322526.vk.me/v322526586/43f9/tj8hCgg7_vo.jpg)
(http://cs322526.vk.me/v322526586/43f0/WJQnZyaTs80.jpg)
This is what I went with and it is based on the visored bascinets of the manuscript (romance of alexander). I am going for a 1340-1350s Spaniard with my simple elbow and knee cops from Merc Tailors and the splinted limbs I am making (still working on em! pics when I have some legit progress)
The bascinet is pretty historical (havent gotten it yet so cant say that with any certainty) as I believe it will be more round as was right during the period (bascinets get more point towards the end of the century from my talks with a few armor historians, definitely want to ask Wade at his armor weekend if I can make it...war practice during the same weekend...I am torn!)
The aventail was a gift and definitely not part of the order so I will have to modify and tailor appropriately to have it rise up rather than have it the way it is now...but hey it is an awesome gift! I cant wait to get it and see how it looks in person...I will have the wife take some nicer pictures of the historical liner etc!
But yeah Sir Jason, instead of going with a sugarloaf (which was a bit dated for practical use) i went with this visored bascinet :)
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^^^^I LOVE that helmet!!!
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I really like this bascinet as well. A word of caution, the visor hinge pins must have a method of retaining them within the hinge.
From this photo you can see that the visor hinge pin is simply a bent wire. I’ve modified mine to be a much larger diameter wire, and then drilled a hole through the bottom of the pin so that a retainer (mail ring) could be inserted. This prevents the visor hinge pin from working loose and creating a catastrophic visor failure.
I had my houndskull visor swing loose once thirteen months ago and vowed “never again”. I do not want a broken nose (or worse). :o
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Close up photo showing what I described above. (The decorative hinge pin chain has been pulled out of the way for clarity.)
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Jorge, as an aside in order for your aventail to rise around the face you will need to drill holes and add verveilles along the side of the face opening. I would have them do it if you're not comfortable.
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Yep I plan to get some nicer vervilles eventually and a new leather band too...I have to see the length and shape of the aventail to see if it is worth tailoring.
I might just use it for a Pisan and get a larger aventail to work on a more historical look.
It has been shipped so let's see how it looks when I get it :)
As for the hinge pin I do have to come up with a solution that makes it easily interchangeable... I got two visors...a grill for tourney and the closed face for meele and general menace :)
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Jorge - I really like the bascinet/visor combo you've picked out. I'm looking for something similar which would also fit under a great helm when needed.
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man, i like that one too, who did you get it from?
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A word of caution, the visor hinge pins must have a method of retaining them within the hinge.
VERY important point. Sir Nathan has lost visor pins before, I don't think during combat, but with what we do, it's possible and very dangerous.
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what about spring hinged latches. easy to make and you can't lift the visor without pushing the button in
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Mine has a spring hinged latch to keep the visor down. Sir Wolf I think they are talking about the hinge to attach the visor to the helmet.
I ordered the helmet from an armorer from Ukraine I met on AA who worked with Jolly Knight to finish some of his work load. Dmitry Vasilchenko but he is best reached through the AA and his username is: Dietrich Vasil
Gareyth in theory if the bascinet is round enough or shaped with the Great Helm (one order) it should be totally doable! That system was very common in the early to mid 14th century. Do be advised that the Great Helm is going to look huge!
Dmitry I believe charges 300 for the visored bascinet and I paid 40 extra for the bargrill attachment. So for your system with a great helm you will probably be in the 500-600 range (I think including shipping) but only he can tell you really.
His english is sketchy but he understood what I wanted and delivered! Well...once I get it I guess he will have delivered :)
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So... I am definitely going to get a Pembridge style great helm for Faire purposes. For some stag antlers on E-bay that I may get for Helm Decorations.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RED-DEER-STAG-ANTLERS-/201103377081?pt=US_Taxidermy&hash=item2ed2b202b9 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/RED-DEER-STAG-ANTLERS-/201103377081?pt=US_Taxidermy&hash=item2ed2b202b9)
Now I just need to find a decently priced Pembridge Helm.
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Check out Clang Armoury.
(http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/hist%20helm/Mvc-065f.jpg) (http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/hist%20helm/hist%20helm%2014th%20C%2001.html)
or Therion Arms:
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1278.html (http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1278.html)
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Pretty :)
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http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=171714
Someone is selling a clang pembridge
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That's a bit more than I wanna pay.
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Is this what you are looking for? Its not the best quality.
http://kultofathena.com/images/AB0395.jpg (http://kultofathena.com/images/AB0395.jpg)
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What do you guys think of this one?? Maybe take off the black??
http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-22588-14th-century-dark-knight-helm.aspx (http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-22588-14th-century-dark-knight-helm.aspx)
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What do you guys think of this one?? Maybe take off the black??
http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-22588-14th-century-dark-knight-helm.aspx (http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-22588-14th-century-dark-knight-helm.aspx)
One down-side of this one, is that they copied the mail aventail from the museum piece, which was almost certainly added later, and not part of the original helm from the 14th century.
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Yeah, i was gonna pull off the mail part.
Looking at the pictures it looks like the whole thing is painted, i sent a message to them for some clarification as the description says blackened steel with brass accents.
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It most assuredly would need a liner of some type.
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Main thing is that it appears to be the correct shape for a Pembridge Great helm.
If it is just painted I am going to strip all the paint off, may even remove the 3 vertical strips and replace with real brass.
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no, i wouldn't. the original is like that. period helms have no brasswork. it was painted
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Also what gauge is it?
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no, i wouldn't. the original is like that. period helms have no brasswork. it was painted
Yep, the available evidence is that the brass components are the anachronism. Paint is more correct.
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no, i wouldn't. the original is like that. period helms have no brasswork. it was painted
Yep, the available evidence is that the brass components are the anachronism. Paint is more correct.
Or gilt leaf
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I'm still looking at stripping paint, but will leave vertical strip in place. May repaint different color thou.
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Main thing is that it appears to be the correct shape for a Pembridge Great helm.
If it is just painted I am going to strip all the paint off, may even remove the 3 vertical strips and replace with real brass.
Be cautious of it. I bought a blackened helm from them (Medieval Collectibles), and after stripping the blackening, the steel is kinda, well, seems to be garbage. I'm not even sure what kind of steel it is, but it's awful. That one might be fine, but my experience wasn't so great.
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If you're stripping the paint off and removing the aventail, it's practically the same helm as the one Aiden linked to. That GDBF helm is a little better known as far as what you're getting.
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Well seeing how this will be a Faire only helmet I am not too stressed about battle quality. Plus I will more than likely be repainting anyways for decorative purposes. Plus adding stag antlers and a Mantle... If the metal is of good polish-able quality then I will leave it plain metal otherwise I will paint.
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Hey, that's my friend Pembridge. We put our heads together when comes time for fighting. :) Good choice.
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Maybe talk to Douglas on here? He makes great helms and has put horns on his before and a crest...maybe he can do something custom in your budget?
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I have already purchased the helm, and Stag antlers. Just have to make the Mantle when they get here.
Also got the heater shield from Kult of Athena.
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=801204&name=Medieval+Heater+Shield (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=801204&name=Medieval+Heater+Shield)
What do you guys recommend to use to paint the shield??
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If you want to go old fashion, use milk paint.
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gesso?
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gesso?
Isn't it usually gesso then a layer of egg tempera?
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I have already purchased the helm, and Stag antlers. Just have to make the Mantle when they get here.
Also got the heater shield from Kult of Athena.
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=801204&name=Medieval+Heater+Shield (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=801204&name=Medieval+Heater+Shield)
What do you guys recommend to use to paint the shield??
I would probably just use regular acrylic paint unless you want to make it a pain in the butt.
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What I do with my shields is prep the canvas with a few coats of gesso, then just go over that with plain ol' acrylic.
You could probably even skip the gesso if you really wanted to, but I use it just to make sure no oils from the wood seep through the canvas to the paint.
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I just use acrylic primer and acrylic paints. I do a couple of layers of satin polyurethane as a topcoat.
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I have already purchased the helm, and Stag antlers. Just have to make the Mantle when they get here.
Also got the heater shield from Kult of Athena.
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=801204&name=Medieval+Heater+Shield (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=801204&name=Medieval+Heater+Shield)
What do you guys recommend to use to paint the shield??
I would probably just use regular acrylic paint unless you want to make it a pain in the butt.
Acrylic paint on steel??
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I have already purchased the helm, and Stag antlers. Just have to make the Mantle when they get here.
Also got the heater shield from Kult of Athena.
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=801204&name=Medieval+Heater+Shield (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=801204&name=Medieval+Heater+Shield)
What do you guys recommend to use to paint the shield??
I would probably just use regular acrylic paint unless you want to make it a pain in the butt.
Acrylic paint on steel??
I thought this was for a shield
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I cheat even more. I've been using flat/matte finish spray paints for armor and shields. It looks pretty decent. The trick is doing the masking right, so you don't have sprayed edges that give it away.
(The shield in my avatar pic was done this way)
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Oh I can attest to the use of masking - just makes the job easier. I had to caulk my bathrooms this past weekend- I'd never done it before so for the first seam I just squirted it all over the place and made a mess. Then the wife suggested painter's tape and the ubiquitous light bulb went off- thanks honey! :)
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Armor is in. Shield is in. Antlers are in. Now just waiting for helmet, also gonna start looking at paints for shield.
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Pics please!
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OK here is the Pic.
Connecting the Huge Antlers to the helm is gonna be fun. Didn't realize they were that big. LOL.
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That's really looking great so far!
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Awesome! :)
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Can't wait to get the shield painted. Just have to find or make a stencil for the stag, trefoils, and axe, and find the paints.
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Yeah I need to work on my shield...need to get some canvas and make a stencil for my ribs...I feel like medievalists never finish with adding projects to their to do list...
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Your kit's coming along nicely, Sir Jason!
Don Jorge- so long as they continue to love it, they never do.
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Also I have plenty of leftover leather from the piece used to make my armor straps. Hoping there will be enough to make a sword belt, when i finally get a sword. :) Plus i think i can cut and shave some of it down to make leather point squares for my arming coat. :) :)
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have a friend rezsize your coa so it is the size you need. then print it off. then put carbon paper down on your shield and trace the outline of your coa pieces on your shield. thats how i did it
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I think I am going to try and print out each charge individually and transfer them to some sort of material to use as templates. First I need to get the paint and do the divisions and let them dry, then I will start on the charges. Only 5 tinctures to get: gules (burgandy), sable, or, argent (white), and argent (silver).
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Started working on painting my shield today. Pictures posted on facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152573975563103&set=a.44979853102.69323.675043102&type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152573975563103&set=a.44979853102.69323.675043102&type=1&theater)
Completed the divisions, but may need another coat.
Need to acquire the materials for making the stencils for my charges.
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It's looking really good!
As I posted on FB, what I did on my first shield was to use stencils, by using the clear plastic stencil sheets you can get at craft/hobby stores. I printed out the charges on plain paper, put the plastic sheet over it, and cut out the stencil with an x-acto. Then I used spray-on stencil adhesive to attach it to the shield. It worked OK, but since I was using spray-paint, the paint still escaped under the edges of the stencil a bit, and I had to use the x-acto to scrape off the excess.
For my second shield, I used the first as a guide, but free-handed the outlines of the charges with a pencil, then painted to those lines by hand with a small brush.
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Second the hand painting. Looks more period IMO. Because my charges are lighter than the background, I painted the background up to the edge of the charge and then filled in the charges. Trying to paint white over red would have been a nightmare of multiple coats!