"When a virtuous man is raised, it brings gladness to his friends, grief to his enemies, and glory to his posterity."
                -- Ben Jonson

Author Topic: Talhoffer 1459 links  (Read 9610 times)

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Talhoffer 1459 links
« on: 2011-01-20, 21:15:58 »

I added some links to the links page for Talhoffer 1459 imagery. Here's an example showing a great little joust scene. It almost looks like the horses are head-butting. :)



Talhoffer reproductions online:

http://www.flaez.ch/talhoffer/index.html (static images and text, untranslated)

http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/thalhofer/thott-2_290.html (allows pan and zoom)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33637817/Fight-Earnestly-Talhoffer-s-1459-Fight-Manual (translation and commentary, and downloadable)

Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Talhoffer 1459 links
« Reply #1 on: 2011-01-20, 22:14:08 »
Excellent links, thank you Sir Edward.

The horses do seem a bit "odd". They look too close together, based on the lances being on the outer arms. I can't remember if that's southern or northern style, but if I remember right the horses would be farther apart for jousting in that style; more of a "peaceful" style with less chance of injuries since the impact is at an angle, rather than nearly head-on.
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Talhoffer 1459 links
« Reply #2 on: 2011-01-21, 04:21:14 »

I agree, it looks like they're jousting with the lances crossing over the neck (passing on each other's left).

The thing to keep in mind when looking at any of the period manuscripts is that the artwork was never done as a photograph. That is, it's meant to convey information, but not meant to preserve scale, proportion, or photographic accuracy, or to even necessarily capture a single moment in time.

If we were to try to take every detail of that image literally, it looks like the lance is knocking the guy over before even reaching him. It's a magic lance. :)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Das Bill

  • Global Moderator
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ******
  • Posts: 624
Re: Talhoffer 1459 links
« Reply #3 on: 2011-01-21, 07:57:32 »
The thing to keep in mind when looking at any of the period manuscripts is that the artwork was never done as a photograph. That is, it's meant to convey information, but not meant to preserve scale, proportion, or photographic accuracy, or to even necessarily capture a single moment in time.

Absolutely! Also, this was an era before the concept of perspective in two dimensional art, so we can't analyze too deeply what's going on here.
"A despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of skill." -Master Sigmund Ringeck

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: Talhoffer 1459 links
« Reply #4 on: 2011-02-08, 20:44:37 »

I agree, it looks like they're jousting with the lances crossing over the neck (passing on each other's left).



I thought that was how it was done in tourney, so as to mitigate some of the force of the blow and make the shield the primary target, as opposed to head, limbs or horse?
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Talhoffer 1459 links
« Reply #5 on: 2011-02-08, 22:00:28 »
Depends on the time period. Earlier tourneys were practically all-out warfare.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: Talhoffer 1459 links
« Reply #6 on: 2011-02-08, 22:08:24 »
I should've clarified...I meant post-Marshal.  From my readings, I understand that the earlier tournaments were as you said, practically all-out warfare...its easy for me to sit here and say cool, I wanna do that- but I doubt I'd want to lose my life in said outing.

I think that one day we'll be taking virtual vacations a la Total Recall...or even better, being able to take vacations in history like Stewie did on Family Guy.  Imagine being able to be a man-at-arms in Edward's army at Crecy or Henry's at Agincourt, or stand with the Marshal alongside the Templars in the Holy Land...and if you die on the battlefield all it does is terminate your vacation, not you.

I think I just came up with a premise for a novella.
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Talhoffer 1459 links
« Reply #7 on: 2011-02-09, 14:51:59 »

Yep, later when it became a more organized competitive sport, they made all sorts of changes to make it safer.

Oh man, how cool would that be? We really need a star-trek style holodeck. :)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: Talhoffer 1459 links
« Reply #8 on: 2011-02-09, 15:35:28 »
Holodeck ftw!  Wouldn't that be grand? 
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€