Main > The Armoury

Kits on a budget

<< < (3/6) > >>

Sir Robert:
Thanks for the replies- I think we found a topic of interest. The information comes from several sources, including a renown museum armor reproduction smith in Canada that I am trying to find again, as well as a course I had in engineering on metallurgy. But I should retract and not a few things- this is not a definitive guide, and as Da Bill notes- correctly, armor varied significantly by region and laws, who made it and why did as well. Also its is very true that techniques, laws, practices, and availability varied significantly within what we would consider a local region- but as most populations did not travel far as it was difficult and dangerous, things were far more isolated and evolved far differently. Just think of all the variations of what we think of as English within England itself.

   I am really referring to the 14-15th century, England and not at all completely- that would take books, and I am not an expert, but I do consider myself an apprentice armorer, now with a few full sets of plate armor completed for clients. I have done a lot of research, but all sources are not really complete are they? As to references of a knight in shining armor- while I am certain that shining armor did exist, and discounting fashion trends, was written about in reality and as an ideal- outside reflecting the virtue of the inside- a common literary theme of the age, that and damnation. So as I said, everyone is more than entitled to what they believe as its likely as accurate as anyone else.

So the forging process, it is known that with many metals- steel, iron, bronze, and aluminum, that mechanical working of the metal does increase its hardness. By forging on carbon powder or exposure to charcoal, this also adds the ability to bend without deforming or breaking. This was inadvertently discovered across many cultures when forging blades- most notably the Japanese, and in the making of Damascus steel- something encountered during the crusades.

Was all arms and armor made this way- absolutely not. It was time-consuming and expensive, availability of raw materials alone would have prevented this, keep in mind that England was a bit deforested just due to timber being the primary building and heating source- with peat second, and stone and mud following for construction. However, armor was made this way- including the baking in charcoal and in the seeking of ballistic resistant armor (hence why plate was developed in the first place). Combat armor does differ significantly from jousting armor- many sources site this in many countries. It was generally thicker, may have had removable plates for added protection, usually was a bit more “rigid” and was designed primarily for mounted combat. While some may have also doubled as combat armor, a knight given the funds would have surly had “tournament” armor, but again enough examples exist to give either view the ring of truth.

Since I was primarily interested in the metallurgy used, techniques, and methods, I was focusing on what would have been available vs. modern equivalents. I had said that I was not trying to detract from what other know and believe but rather provide additional information to those looking to build a kit and not to discount anything as strictly un-period looking. Chances are almost anything was “period”, even plastics used in the proper design- while materially very far from period- would be close to armor made from bone or horn, or perhaps boiled leather plates. Point is if it existed then, someone would have used it somewhere to make armor in some way.

Also many mercenaries were opportunistic, as were lower knights or man-at-arms, they would scavenge, buy, and acquire weapons anywhere the opportunity arose, some using “ancient”  armor as they happened to acquire it, mixed perhaps with leather, studded, chain, or fine gothic pieces. Indeed as uniforms were not provided in general, an army was a motley thing. Uniforms gained prominence as a way of identifying friend from foe, where professional soldiers were employed (no money invested, who cares), but there were few standing professional armies during these times that were in anything resembling a standard uniform, that died with the Romans and was just starting to be developed in fortification guards or royal guards.

So I do apologies as I don’t mean to sound authoritative across such a wide breath of time and regions- .

Sir Robert:
Ok, what I would like to focus on is making a kit- I leave of what to the user.

I would start with researching armor, if thats what you intend on making or wearing, different periods and regions. Find what appeals to you and what kind of character you would want to represent. Are you more of mercenary, a viking, or a knight? What region do you like- armor differs significantly, and by the way- the Japanese were wearing armor betwwen 1300-1550 as well. Do you like the crusades, or later periods?

The time and place you select with help you start defining your armor. I love German, Gothic Armor, but still lack the skills to hammer it out- someday...So be realistic with yourself and push but don't expect blinding sucess. Armor making is 99% sweat equity, with skill you can do wonders but it takes lots of hammering to build skills.

I highly reccomend reserach, reading, and examining armor in detail. Tools will be highly importaint but differ from person to person. Most blacksmiths make their own tools based on need and how they like to work. You can find patterns in many places, they are a good way to start, but keep in mind that they were not made for you and they may require techniques and tools you don't have yet. (Like a mig welder) You can forge a very nice and reasonable set of plate mail from basic tools, its all very possible if you work at it.

There are many references for tools online, the most essential are unsplit sections of trees, prefeeribly oak or other hardwoods. You will need to "dish" these into shapes to help you sink your forms, also steel balls or sphears are great to have for some items as well. A good rule of thumb- don't select or make dishes or balls the same size as you want your finished item- the item will almost amways be about 1/3 larger, at least thats how it seems to be for me. So if your going to make elbow cops, make sure you use a dish and ball a bit smaller than you want the finished size- this is not a science, you'll find out what works and not through experience and the only un-doable thing you can do is when cutting the material out, you can reshape, resize, and fix almost anything other than that.

Measure 10x, cut once. You will need to visualize the curves and attachement points of your form as you go to tweak it along.

Don't use a big hammer- most common mistake, as many looking for speed pick up a hammer thats too heavy- this is a marathon event not a sprint. Also dings from a heavy hammer are much harder to get out during plenishing.

Grind your hammer convex- remove sharp edges, dings and flat surfaces, any imperfections in the hammer will get telegraphed to your work- I sand my hammers with 200 grit paper or better (400 on finishing hammers)

Plastic hammers are wonderful- they don't mar and work very well- but only on cold metal. I have several of these and many rubber mallets for initial shaping around forms.

Metal is really interesting material, it flows, it bends, it shrinks and it expands, it always amazes me how I go from glat stock (16g) to elbow cops or helmets.

Don't use too light a guage- I have never used below 16g, and actually like 14g and 12g better. Its far more work, but it seems to flow better for me. 18g may be used for some things but in general I would stay away from lighter guages- they arn't combat legal (SCA) anyway.

More later- (Chime in anyone)

Das Bill:
Hi Stormdelver,
No need to apologize! We're just having a friendly discussion!


--- Quote from: Stormdelver on 2009-12-18, 18:02:09 --- Just think of all the variations of what we think of as English within England itself.
--- End quote ---

That's very true. The same is true with time period... just ten years of difference within a period can show a large amount of change in fashion, politics, etc, just as it does in modern times.


--- Quote --- This was inadvertently discovered across many cultures when forging blades- most notably the Japanese, and in the making of Damascus steel- something encountered during the crusades.
--- End quote ---

Curiously enough, the Europeans were doing this hundreds of years before the Japanese, yet the Japanese always get the limelight. :) But here's a not-too-well known fact: A large number of European swords from the early medieval era up untl the high middle ages were often left fairly soft, or in some cases unhardened entirely. Dr. Lee Jones owns a 11th c. sword that shows no evidence of any heat treatment, and yet we know for a fact that they knew how. Their kitchen utensils were hardened, their farm tools, hammers, chisels, etc, were all hardened. Certain types of tools were spring hardened... and yet, only some swords were made this way. Clearly this was done on purpose, though we can only guess at this purpose at the moment (such as perhaps the desire for a blade that would bend rather than break).


--- Quote --- Combat armor does differ significantly from jousting armor- many sources site this in many countries. It was generally thicker, may have had removable plates for added protection, usually was a bit more “rigid” and was designed primarily for mounted combat. While some may have also doubled as combat armor, a knight given the funds would have surly had “tournament” armor, but again enough examples exist to give either view the ring of truth.
--- End quote ---

Sometimes this was true and sometimes it wasn't. For example, the armor of the first Earl of Pembroke, who was on of the most powerful men in 16th c. England and therefore not poor, had armor that doubled for different roles. His armour had interchangible pieces depnding on whether he was jousting, fighting as a demi-lancer, equipped for light cavalry, etc. His burgonet had a separate face piece for jousting, but it was removable if he was leading on the field.  


--- Quote ---So I do apologies as I don’t mean to sound authoritative across such a wide breath of time and regions- .

--- End quote ---

Again, nothing to apologize for! If there was nothing to discuss, we wouldn't be here!

Das Bill:

--- Quote from: Stormdelver on 2009-12-18, 18:32:33 ---Don't use too light a guage- I have never used below 16g, and actually like 14g and 12g better. Its far more work, but it seems to flow better for me. 18g may be used for some things but in general I would stay away from lighter guages- they arn't combat legal (SCA) anyway.
--- End quote ---

Just to add to this:

Decide what you want the armor for. If you want it primarily for wear at the fairre or for costume, I'd go with the lightest gauge you can get away with (understanding that too thin is hard to shape properly). If you want it for historical demos, I'd try not to go too heavy, because most historical armors are much lighter than modern armors (due to the fact that they would forge certain areas to be thicker and other areas of the same sheet of metal to be thinner, so you could maximize your strength and minimize your weight... since modern armor tends to be made from sheets of standard thickness, most moderrn armors are not made in the same way). If you want to practice historical European martial arts, you will want certain things to be heavier (e.g. the helmet), but other areas aren't so necessary (e.g. the legs) because you aren't intentionally aiming for the armor in most cases, therefore the armor doesn't need to be too thick. If you are doing combat sport such as SCA, then you want to go with your organizations recommendations.

Sir Blackwolf:
Sir Das Bill,

From a practical view you are quite correct in saying that maile that is oft used does tend to polish itself. For both my Ladywife and I do use our armour a great deal and as such we are out in both the hot sun and pouring rain, however we have little issue with rusting as what with she donning and doffing and moving about it tends to knock the rust off for the most part. Mine is painted black and needs be repainted about every other month or so from April to October, but again rust is not a great issue.  The item that rusts the most is my coif as I have it attached to my arming cap. The resulting sweat and moisture contained within it causes the coif to rust rapidly and of course it must be aired out and repainted on a regular basis. During the winter months our harness stays on the rack for the most part, except for those days the weather suits to get out and practice out of doors.

Thank you all for this interesting discourse, tis good to see the depth of knowledge and experience herein and I have enjoyed it immensely.

I am at your service,
Sir Blackwolf

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page