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The Myth of European Reenactment Perfection
Ian:
--- Quote from: Baron de Magnan on 2014-06-30, 16:53:06 ---Who cares about the mismatching armor. As long as everyone is having fun, nobody loses. ;)
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A living history event's primary purpose is education. As I mentioned several times in the initial post, the patrons go home with that ingrained in their heads as historical fact. So an event that perpetuates one of the greatest misconceptions of the Middle Ages in the name of specifically recreating an event in the year 1413 fails in its primary function. The misconception I'm referring to is that non-students of the Middle Ages consider them to be a small lumped together string of time where Norman Knights coexisted with Maximilian Armor-clad knights and everything in between. When you intentionally misrepresent the facts, you're part of the problem. Living Historians exist because of the passion they have for depicting things as well as they can, not to intentionally make stuff up. There are plenty of other venues to get your 'medieval on' where you're not trying to be educational first and foremost, but a Living History event is not one of them. We crazy folk also derive a lot of the fun and satisfaction from the research and coming together of a historically sound impression, and then being able to share that knowledge with the public!
--- Quote from: Sir James A on 2014-06-30, 14:14:18 ---My biggest jealousy of the European events is in the setting; they have the actual period castles and cities at which to hold events, which is something we will never have here in the states.
Excellent thread and great comments, Sir Ian.
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Totally jealous of their settings! That's why it makes me even more sad when they throw everything else to the wind. It's almost disrespectful to the site they're on :)
Sir Martyn:
--- Quote from: Ian on 2014-06-30, 17:12:59 ---
--- Quote from: Baron de Magnan on 2014-06-30, 16:53:06 ---Who cares about the mismatching armor. As long as everyone is having fun, nobody loses. ;)
--- End quote ---
A living history event's primary purpose is education. As I mentioned several times in the initial post, the patrons go home with that ingrained in their heads as historical fact. So an event that perpetuates one of the greatest misconceptions of the Middle Ages in the name of specifically recreating an event in the year 1413 fails in its primary function. The misconception I'm referring to is that non-students of the Middle Ages consider them to be a small lumped together string of time where Norman Knights coexisted with Maximilian Armor-clad knights and everything in between. When you intentionally misrepresent the facts, you're part of the problem. Living Historians exist because of the passion they have for depicting things as well as they can, not to intentionally make stuff up. There are plenty of other venues to get your 'medieval on' where you're not trying to be educational first and foremost, but a Living History event is not one of them. We crazy folk also derive a lot of the fun and satisfaction from the research and coming together of a historically sound impression, and then being able to share that knowledge with the public!
--- Quote from: Sir James A on 2014-06-30, 14:14:18 ---My biggest jealousy of the European events is in the setting; they have the actual period castles and cities at which to hold events, which is something we will never have here in the states.
Excellent thread and great comments, Sir Ian.
--- End quote ---
Totally jealous of their settings! That's why it makes me even more sad when they throw everything else to the wind. It's almost disrespectful to the site they're on :)
--- End quote ---
Thanks for starting this good discussion.
I don't know that Europeans going to a "sloppy" LH event are going to leave with concrete impressions that's how it was back then - depends on a lot of factors, right? What they knew coming into it, where they're coming from, what the expectations are, etc. As James said, one of the biggest things Europeans have going for them is that they grow up surrounded by this history - that's not to say that everyone has an equal level of appreciation/understanding for it, of course - but for all of them it's an inescapable part of their culture they are surrounded by and inundated with from birth.
I have total respect for folks on both sides of the ocean who are working for historical accuracy in all aspects and to the maximum extent possible. Invaluable research and lessons are being done & passed on. But, I also think that people who are doing things in a different, perhaps (in the eyes of some) "less accurate" way - but with spirit, enthusiasm and emphasis on values (i.e., rediscovering handicrafts, appreciating the work of your own hands, teamwork, etc - to say nothing of chivalry) also bring something of importance to the table.
Case in point, one 14th cent. LH group I recently discovered, Doba Karlova (http://dobakarlova.cz/en/). Clearly, they are going to pains in their presentation to educate people about the period, how they lived, what they did, why things happened the way they did, etc. But it also seems that some flexibility in their execution is also OK - i.e., some wear machine-sown garments.
These people obviously also care about the accuracy of their portrayal/re-enactment, but not to the point that they are excluding others who are not as accurate. Separately, as a teacher in my experience education, to be effective, should also take inspiration into account.
We may have different views on how to motivate others and the most effective means to communicate what we hope to share with them. If some Europeans seem more focused on the fighting (or roleplaying, or whatever), it's also because I think many of these groups (yes, LARPers included) care mostly about the energy and enthusiasm one discovers when disconnected -- if only for a little while, from our modern, 24/7 world -- and finds something of the spirit of the past and their predecesors "internally" through sharing these experiences.
When they want museum-quality accuracy and detail, I think many Europeans just visit the museum/local castle. But when they attend LH events open to the public, right or wrong, they are expecting a show, and the groups there are looking for ways to draw these people into their world and engage new generations in an approachable way. I'm not trying to say European LH should be or is "dumbed down," but just that many of them also seem to see the goal and the best means of achieving it through a different lens.
BTW & OT, Maruska asked me to thank the Order again for the recent demo here for our neighborhood when she saw a young boy with his father at our playground this past wknd sporting a new cloak, shield and helmet - seems like we have a new "knight" in the making:)
Ian:
--- Quote from: Martyn on 2014-07-01, 02:58:45 --- As James said, one of the biggest things Europeans have going for them is that they grow up surrounded by this history - that's not to say that everyone has an equal level of appreciation/understanding for it, of course - but for all of them it's an inescapable part of their culture they are surrounded by and inundated with from birth.
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That's like assuming people in the US have an understanding of American History... or even their own local history. I would venture to say that a lot of people don't really have that understanding, and many don't really care. Being in the right setting doesn't mean the people in it know anything about it.
I don't know of any strict LH groups here in the US that require all hand-sewn garments for medieval impressions either. I'm sure there may be some out there, and that would be a bit extreme. But then again, if you don't want to play by those rules, don't try to join that specific game. That's what I take umbrage with. It's the people who see a group that has a certain set of rules, then they get all upset when they won't relax their rules for them. If you want to play a more relaxed game, join or form a more relaxed group, but leave the people who enjoy the strict presentation alone and let them do their thing.
I agree that it takes all levels of accuracy to bring a good presentation to the table because you don't want to exclude people's knowledge when they may have some garments that are not correct. But you have to draw the line somewhere. That's what always gets people's panties in to a bunch. There comes a point where the inaccuracies are detracting from the presentation. That is a fine line to walk. The first video I posted is well beyond that line. It shows virtually nothing correct about the material culture of the chosen time period. That's why I used it as the example.
I think a lot of people are falsely making the assumption that I think everyone should be super accurate all the time. That's false. Look at DoK, there are hugely varying levels of accuracy at that event. But that's why we're able to have such a large and successful event with such a wide variety of knowledge. Now when it comes to my own personal standards for myself, I prefer to do things as accurate as my knowledge and skill allows. That's how I, and my group operate, but we only hold ourselves to those standards.
**also, don't forget the point of this discussion was to bust the myth that European living history is all of that stitch-counting museum-level quality, it's not**
Ian:
--- Quote from: Martyn on 2014-07-01, 02:58:45 --- But, I also think that people who are doing things in a different, perhaps (in the eyes of some) "less accurate" way - but with spirit, enthusiasm and emphasis on values (i.e., rediscovering handicrafts, appreciating the work of your own hands, teamwork, etc - to say nothing of chivalry) also bring something of importance to the table.
Case in point, one 14th cent. LH group I recently discovered, Doba Karlova (http://dobakarlova.cz/en/). Clearly, they are going to pains in their presentation to educate people about the period, how they lived, what they did, why things happened the way they did, etc. But it also seems that some flexibility in their execution is also OK - i.e., some wear machine-sown garments.
These people obviously also care about the accuracy of their portrayal/re-enactment, but not to the point that they are excluding others who are not as accurate. Separately, as a teacher in my experience education, to be effective, should also take inspiration into account.
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Totally on board with this too. I don't think anyone's disagreeing with that.
Sir Douglas:
--- Quote from: Ian on 2014-07-01, 03:24:08 ---
--- Quote from: Martyn on 2014-07-01, 02:58:45 --- As James said, one of the biggest things Europeans have going for them is that they grow up surrounded by this history - that's not to say that everyone has an equal level of appreciation/understanding for it, of course - but for all of them it's an inescapable part of their culture they are surrounded by and inundated with from birth.
--- End quote ---
That's like assuming people in the US have an understanding of American History... or even their own local history. I would venture to say that a lot of people don't really have that understanding, and many don't really care. Being in the right setting doesn't mean the people in it know anything about it.
--- End quote ---
I totally agree on this point. How many average people know anything about the Civil War besides it was North/Blue v. South/Grey? For that matter, how many average people know anything about the history of the Ancient Pueblos (who were contemporaneous to medieval Europeans)? I certainly don't. I know they lived in cliffs and I've been to Mesa Verde a few times, but I couldn't tell you how they made their clothing, or the structure of their social hierarchy. There are people who do, but I'm not one of them. There has to first be an interest in the history around you, then a desire or yearning to discover more about it. I could easily go to a bad Civil War reenactment and be none the wiser, but there's probably a Civil War reenactment forum out there somewhere that's having this same discussion. ;)
I do, however, think that the aspects of medieval European history is by and large more accessible to the average European. Doesn't automatically mean they use them, but they're there.
EDIT: Perhaps I should say that a higher quality information is more accessible to them. We can find information on just about anything via the Internet, but nothing beats seeing a piece of armor or clothing or a castle right there in person.
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