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Norman Maille - 1066

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Sir William:

--- Quote from: Ian on 2014-02-11, 18:26:53 ---
--- Quote from: Sir Wolf on 2014-02-11, 12:36:07 ---i have come to believe that the square is fully leather backed and is attached to the hauberk. i believe this to be an added layer of chest protection that could be taken off. my reasoning is that the normans rode in warfare and "jousted" on horseback. before this it is known that men road to war on horses but got off to fight. this square would give the wearer an added chest protection from the spear point in practice and Durand war against someone else whom they though would fight on horseback

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concur

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As do I; of course actual maille being as scarce as it is, we're left with images- be they statues, frescoes, paintings, weavings- and exposition.  If those images are to believed as being actual representations of what was worn at the time of the creation of said image, then it isn't too far a reach to suppose that it could be the precursor to the breastplate.

Sir Patrick:
OK, I'm won over. They are not aventails.

Sir James A:
Am I completely nutty in thinking the ones I posted with the brown around the necks, sleeves and hems are not leather trim? I can't see them as possibly being chest reinforcements.

Sir Wolf:

--- Quote from: Sir James A on 2014-02-11, 00:06:35 ---
--- Quote from: Ian on 2014-02-10, 21:46:19 ---I'm inclined to agree that it's not a ventail, since it's never shown used as one, and it's displayed square in the middle of the chest on hauberks being worn and hauberks hanging on rods.  It's definitely not leather trim around the neck line because it's depicted in the middle of the chest while worn.

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now i dunno, this could be. it's been awhile since i've gone thru my 100 some books on normans etc. but but, most of the men depicted in these scenes are english. save for harald and he's not norman either. so they wouldn't need an extra chest protector if they don't fight via lance.
I had to look at the pic again to spot the square on the one guy where it is being worn, I missed it earlier. I'm not sure what is going on with that guy.

The ones on the pole, I still believe are leather trimmed necks. A properly tailored haubergeon / hauberk isn't symmetrical front and back, and the back will have a straighter cut than the front of the neck, and look "open" from the front, similar to how it sits on the pole. The edging at the end of the sleeves and lower hem seems to support the leather used specifically for edging, and although I've only done so around the house so far, I've noticed less "snagging" with a leather trimmed edge by having fewer "loose" rings to catch easily and letting the mail "slide" more naturally when going on/off - this may be a modernism due to the way our modern indian produced mail has the lumpy rivets vs proper smoother historical mail, so I don't consider it as anything other than personal experience. I did take my inspiration on the leather trim from the Bayeaux Tapestry images a couple years back.

See these people, also from Bayeaux Tapestry (Battle of Normandy), who seem to be wearing mail with a leather collar or trim. Note that none of them have a square of leather on their chest. They also seem to have the same sleeve and hem leather trim, not likely to be an undergarment since it follows the flow of the mail and sticks out, which makes me suspect it is attached/laced together in some way.









King Harold and someone next to him (off to the right) not only seem to have leather trimmed sleeves, but a second sleeve of mail underneath, with it's own leather trim. He is also "missing" the square reinforcing bit in front, and if the pattern of mail in the picture can be taken as generally correct, it appears his coif is worn inside the haubergeon, and the haubergeon neck has leather trim.



None of them have a raised ventail either, all picture with open faces / norman conicals, which I think further shows it likely was not an opened ventail. If the King himself didn't have a ventail, I would be surprised if other soldiers did. I do wonder if Harold had a hauberk under a haubergeon for substantial double-layered protection, due to the prominence of his seemingly double-sleeves.

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