Main > The Armoury
My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
Don Jorge:
These are my Inspirations:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/821/1127/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/622/816/
Not sure if these Facebook pictures will post if you aren't friends with Keith:
I have been in contact with Mad Matt and got a quote to build a set around the german effigy that looks like the stuff Keith has in his kit. A few considerations I needed help with are:
1. The helmet...should it be a great helm, sugar loaf or bascinet for a 1351-1364 era kit.
2. Should I go with all splinted leather on every piece like the german effigy or go with Stapleton's kit that is more English and thus more up to date with the plate arms and splinted cuisses and greaves. I was told from a saftey point of view I should stay away from splinted arms...any input on that?
3. Leather or fabric CoP? or does it not matter because eventually I will get a surcoat?
4. How historical would it be NOT to wear maile underneath everything? Keith said it can be done and in SCA no one will bust my chops...it would be nice to have some reprieve on expenses as far as armor goes for a little while...if I showed up to DoK this next year would I not be allowed to not dress up if I didnt have chain under the kit?
5. I have read extensively about voiders for transitional sets and there is no proof AGAINST them, as many transitional kits are based off effigies (there is very little existing armor out there I am told) and voiders and aventail and skirt would trick an effigie into looking like a haubergeon. I ask because...
6. Gambesons...I seriously contemplating the revival.us gambeson and I am told that it might not work so good with riveted mail haubergeon with the cloth buttons and it being so thin. The kit Matt has quoted me is about $1300 shipped for a Helm with a peferrated sheet under the eyes for HEMA/WMA, shoulders, rerebraces, elbows, vambraces, cuisses, knee cops (fluted like the german effigy), and greaves...all of it splinted. That plus the gambeson and some period shows put me at like $1500...The wife is not going to go for that easily and putting 250-350 on a gambeson and 500 more on riveted wedged flat mail....it isn't going to happen. So I was thinking paying the 100 bucks for the revival.us gambeson and transition it into HEMA once I have had time to save up and get the gambeson and mail.
Any ideas or suggestions on what I should do with the kit?
Thanks,
Jorge
P.S. Thinking about black CoP, red gambeson and maybe a red belt...red and black is overused but hey, it looks spiffy and hides the blood ;)
Sir Nate:
Wow! Great kit
Lord Dane:
Agreed. Nice kit!!
Ian:
--- Quote from: Belemrys on 2013-11-15, 22:24:26 ---
1. The helmet...should it be a great helm, sugar loaf or bascinet for a 1351-1364 era kit.
2. Should I go with all splinted leather on every piece like the german effigy or go with Stapleton's kit that is more English and thus more up to date with the plate arms and splinted cuisses and greaves. I was told from a saftey point of view I should stay away from splinted arms...any input on that?
3. Leather or fabric CoP? or does it not matter because eventually I will get a surcoat?
4. How historical would it be NOT to wear maile underneath everything? Keith said it can be done and in SCA no one will bust my chops...it would be nice to have some reprieve on expenses as far as armor goes for a little while...if I showed up to DoK this next year would I not be allowed to not dress up if I didnt have chain under the kit?
5. I have read extensively about voiders for transitional sets and there is no proof AGAINST them, as many transitional kits are based off effigies (there is very little existing armor out there I am told) and voiders and aventail and skirt would trick an effigie into looking like a haubergeon. I ask because...
6. Gambesons...I seriously contemplating the revival.us gambeson and I am told that it might not work so good with riveted mail haubergeon with the cloth buttons and it being so thin. The kit Matt has quoted me is about $1300 shipped for a Helm with a peferrated sheet under the eyes for HEMA/WMA, shoulders, rerebraces, elbows, vambraces, cuisses, knee cops (fluted like the german effigy), and greaves...all of it splinted. That plus the gambeson and some period shows put me at like $1500...The wife is not going to go for that easily and putting 250-350 on a gambeson and 500 more on riveted wedged flat mail....it isn't going to happen. So I was thinking paying the 100 bucks for the revival.us gambeson and transition it into HEMA once I have had time to save up and get the gambeson and mail.
--- End quote ---
1. A sugarloaf is a little outdated for your chosen time period. A great helm or bascinet would be appropriate. If you want to go German, thean a shovel-face klappvisor bascinet would be ideal, or if you dig the great helm you can still get away with it for this period (but know it's really more for mounted combat, not foot combat, historically the great helm would have been worn over a bascinet and then discarded or removed after the charge and the fighting moved to foot).
2. If you like the German persona I would stay with the splinted. I've never heard of splint having safety issues, and tons of SCAdians use it.
3. Leather is more durable, but almost all surviving COPs and Brigs etc are fabric covered, not leather covered, but they wouldn't have minded replacing fabric frequently.
4. If you want the historical answer, a knight would be wearing a full maille haubergeon under their plate or splint at this time almost without exception by contemporary art and effigies. It will add considerable weight to your harness (it's the single heaviest piece of kit in my full plate harness). But you're right, the SCA will not bust your chops if you choose to go without it.
5. Currently there is virtually no concrete evidence for voiders/skirts until the 15th century when plate harnesses provided enough coverage making the full haubergeon redundant. Remember, proving a negative is not logically possible, so saying there's no proof something didn't exist is meaningless in historical context, but again, the SCA is not going to bust your chops if you want to 'look' like you're wearing a haubergeon.
6. I have no experience with the revival.us gamby, but the revivalclothing.com gamby is of similar design and it is specifically designed to be worn under maille (I have the linen version and wore it under maille for years until I made my Charles de Blois pourpoint) with normal wear and tear. You don't need a lot of padding with a maille haubergeon that's only supplementing a CoP / splint limbs or plate harness. Heavier padded gambesons are more important for harnesses that are primarily maille.
Sir James A:
Just my opinions, of course. The ones I didn't respond to, I don't have an answer or suggestion.
--- Quote from: Belemrys on 2013-11-15, 22:24:26 ---2. Should I go with all splinted leather on every piece like the german effigy or go with Stapleton's kit that is more English and thus more up to date with the plate arms and splinted cuisses and greaves. I was told from a saftey point of view I should stay away from splinted arms...any input on that?
--- End quote ---
From a safety perspective, somebody hitting you hard enough to leave bruises or break bones through splinted or plate is hitting too hard. If you're doing steel combat, even rebated edges will "chew" at the leather if they strike it without grounding out on the steel splints, but it's not going to fail overnight or in a single bout, it would take many years.
--- Quote from: Belemrys on 2013-11-15, 22:24:26 ---3. Leather or fabric CoP? or does it not matter because eventually I will get a surcoat?
--- End quote ---
Leather will be more expensive; if it's getting covered and you aren't doing living history, doesn't really matter.
--- Quote from: Belemrys on 2013-11-15, 22:24:26 ---4. How historical would it be NOT to wear maile underneath everything? Keith said it can be done and in SCA no one will bust my chops...it would be nice to have some reprieve on expenses as far as armor goes for a little while...if I showed up to DoK this next year would I not be allowed to not dress up if I didnt have chain under the kit?
--- End quote ---
When you're talking about fighting in plastic armor (SCA) and fighting with imaginary armor that doesn't even reflect what you're wearing, anybody busting your chops over lack of a haubergeon can probably be ignored. As far as Days of Knights, I don't think it would be an issue to not have the mail. If you can find effigies or sources that show it existed without the mail - perfect. If you can't, make sure when people ask about the armor or if you give any impromptu presentations that you mention mail would be worn with the armor. Many people are in-between states of completion with their kits, and as long as you don't try to pass it off as complete and accurate when it isn't, it isn't a terrible offense. The primary goal for DoK is to keep out fairies, dragons, dwarves, sci fi, etc.
--- Quote from: Belemrys on 2013-11-15, 22:24:26 ---5. I have read extensively about voiders for transitional sets and there is no proof AGAINST them, as many transitional kits are based off effigies (there is very little existing armor out there I am told) and voiders and aventail and skirt would trick an effigie into looking like a haubergeon. I ask because...
--- End quote ---
It's a very loaded topic. Even some accounts of voiders in later period harness aren't always constant. There is artwork showing that late period italian armor, when it was "full plate", had a double-layer fauld; some speculation on it actually being a fauld with a haubergeon worn over it. Some of the later period italian armor actually wears the sleeves of the haubergeon over top of the upper arm harness, which means it cannot be voiders. The best we can do is make an educated guess at what's hidden from us in pictures, by trying to extrapolate from other sources. So I would say, buy whichever, as there's no hard evidence one way or the other.
--- Quote from: Belemrys on 2013-11-15, 22:24:26 ---6. Gambesons...I seriously contemplating the revival.us gambeson and I am told that it might not work so good with riveted mail haubergeon with the cloth buttons and it being so thin. The kit Matt has quoted me is about $1300 shipped for a Helm with a peferrated sheet under the eyes for HEMA/WMA, shoulders, rerebraces, elbows, vambraces, cuisses, knee cops (fluted like the german effigy), and greaves...all of it splinted. That plus the gambeson and some period shows put me at like $1500...The wife is not going to go for that easily and putting 250-350 on a gambeson and 500 more on riveted wedged flat mail....it isn't going to happen. So I was thinking paying the 100 bucks for the revival.us gambeson and transition it into HEMA once I have had time to save up and get the gambeson and mail.
--- End quote ---
The mail can catch on the buttons a bit but once you have it on, it should be of minimal issue. I've had my haubergeon on over cloth button gambeson and aside from actively getting into it, didn't have any other trouble. I haven't worn it for 10 hours, only around the house, but it's a minor concern. You can always take the cloth buttons off and do a spiral lace conversion - it's just cutting off the buttons and sewing holes. The most important aspect of a gambeson should be in the arms/fitment, rather than how it stays closed.
You can always start with a cheaper gambeson and upgrade later. They are somewhat of a "wear and tear" item, you probably won't have it forever.
You can also pick up the mail down the road. No need to buy everything all at once. Most people don't. Have it on the radar as a planned kit upgrade, but start with the basics and work from there.
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