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Wedge riveted vs Dome riveted maille.

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Sir Ulrich:
Yeah, I think my Icefalcon hauberk is inferior maille in all honesty. Gonna sell it for about 200 bucks below the normal price once I get wedge riveted maille. I did read it was used in the mid 13th century but only in Germany. Since my persona is German that shouldn't be too much of a problem. I do plan to keep my chausses however because I don't know where to find them elsewhere other than Cap a Pie.

Sir William:
Y'know, I have no idea who made my shirt but I suspect it is India-made...but I have not lost a single rivet in the 4 years that I've had it.  That's troubling to read, Ulrich.

Since you got it from Icefalcon, I'd shoot a pm to Andre over at AA (or an email or phone call) and tell him what's going on...he might've gotten a bad batch.  In any case, let him know- I'm reasonably certain he'll sort you out.  Worth a shot, know what I mean?  Inferior product is inferior product, simple as that.

Sir James A:

--- Quote from: Sir Ulrich on 2012-10-18, 03:39:50 ---Yeah, I fixed the pic. Should show now why wedge riveted maille doesn't have the rivet popping problem as easily.
Anyway I could do that and I have been doing it but it doesn't work I always seem to lose rivets easily.

--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: James Anderson III link=topic=2142.msg29553#msg29553 --- The biggest quality problem isn't the rivet itself, but more of how well they are (or aren't!) set/peened.

--- End quote ---

If you look at the top image in that picture, that's how the wedge starts out. The bottom is if it is peened over well. With wedge riveted, if it's not peened properly, the wedge itself will just swell out, pushing the ring out too, and can pop right out of the back too.

It all goes back to $0.18 an hour Indian labor to make this stuff, with rings that are too thin, by multiple people in an assembly line with little regard to what happens with the mail after it's sold. Properly set rivets should not arbitrarily come apart, wedge or pin. The difference in strength will be 99% in regards to being physically hit with a weapon and attempting to break it; for standard "dress" wear, there's virtually no difference between pin or wedge.

Here's what the GDFB pin riveted looks like (it's round ring, but the rivet issue is the same on both):


You can see plenty of rivets set near the edge of the flat part and in some cases completely off of it. THAT is the primary cause of ring loss / breakage. Compare that picture to your Schmid mail.

Okay, now here's what the GDFB wedge riveted actually looks like:


You can see towards the middle, one rivet is completely missing, you can see others are protruding upwards, you can see the sharp edges around the overlaps, you can see the thick side of the wedge itself isn't even peened flat either.

See how the proper wedge riveted SHOULD look like the image you linked from the thread I posted? See what the GDFB wedge riveted ACTUALLY looks like?

The main difference is that the rivets on the wedge riveted are in the proper place much more consistently than the pin rivets. But they're still not set well, and would require work.

There seems to randomly be a "good batch" of mail, and "bad batch" of mail. You might have got a bad batch of the pin riveted. Or somebody really hated their job that day. There's no guarantee the wedge will be any better. It's a shot in the dark.

Pin riveted mail is nothing more than a tiny version of plate armor rivets. If pin rivets couldn't hold well, we'd see people walking across the field with plates popping off of their harness. It's exceedingly rare because larger rivets on plate armor are properly peened. There's not many rivets to peen on a plate harness as compared to a hauberk, and mail rivets are small - hence, laziness and maximum profit happens over proper results. Even massive steel bridges that we drive on, and steel frameworks of skyscrapers have been assembled with basically huge peened rivets:



And at the end of the day, BOTH pin and wedge will be mildly abrasive to the arming garments due to the flat nature of the ring and moving around. And BOTH are going to need work to get them near what you want. Really, for what seems to be your main criteria (least harmful on arming clothes and soft to touch), what you want is welded mail. Historical seems to be lower on your priority list than softness and ring stability - and you seem to lose an excessive number of rings, more trouble than I've heard anyone ever mention - almost as bad as butted mail.

IceFalcon does have both welded hauberks and welded chausses available:
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/5-3-mm-chainmail-ff80818119f1676e011b2449dd4e3a1f-c.html
___________________________________

FWIW, I've had minimal issues with my IceFalcon mail. I have the 9mm pin riveted stainless fauld, I had to add some columns to get it to fit. I tightened a few questionable looking links while I was doing that. Between VARF, Fort Belvoir, DoK, and random fun/testing at home, I've worn it roughly around 50 hours. I checked before DoK, and it was not missing a single ring or rivet. I've lost none from my IceFalcon chausses or hauberk either, though they've only been worn around the house thus far. Maybe you just got a spotty quality one?

Sir Ulrich:
For me it's losing the rivets. I only lost about 5 rings so far but most people I talked to only lost 1 or 2. I guess I got a bad batch then. My main priority is finding one that wont shred my gambeson up and I swear it's the tail end of the rivets thats causing it rather than the flat rings. I didn't have this problem with my old gambeson, I guess my gambeson isn't heavy enough to handle riveted maille? If thats the case then I'm screwed cause I payed a lot for it. But I honestly don't think thats the case cause I saw a lot of other peoples gambesons that were made out of just as heavy linen as mine and it worked fine. Also noticed the place where the damage is is the same spot as seen here

Sir Edward:

Don't forget you can use "Fray-Check" (clicky: http://amzn.com/B000YQKIDY) if you need to. You can clip those threads out, dab a little bit of this stuff on, and it glues the threads together in that spot so it doesn't come apart.

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