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Wedge riveted vs Dome riveted maille.

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Sir Ulrich:
I am wondering, ever since I saw wedge riveted maille for the first time in person at DoK I noticed how much softer and smoother the inside is. It doesnt cut me AT ALL when I touch it. I been considering replacing my hauberk with a wedge riveted one because there are a LOT of threads on my gambeson that got torn from putting it on and taking it off. Dont want to wear that down in all honesty. Also cant stand getting cuts from putting it on, I actually got my fingernail RIPPED off thanks to my hauberk and it was bleeding and hurt.
I think historical dome riveted maille was flat on the back as well rather than the rivets sticking out. The wedge riveted stuff seems more accurate IMO even if it's indian made after seeing erik's maille upclose and seeing how it was a bit more similar to the wedge riveted indian maille it seems better suited for not cutting me and not pulling all the threads out in my gambeson.
What I am wondering is is it the flat rings that cause that damage or is it the rivets that cause the linen threads to pull out? I also think with solid rings it would be less damage as well as it has 50% less rivets than the dome riveted all. Prolly would be more historically accurate as well.

Sir William:
Is it possible you were wearing it inside/out?

Sir James A:
Did you lose the entire fingernail? I forgot to ask. I've never heard of that happening from mail, nothing beyond nicks and abrasions.

To start with, a couple good reads:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26877 (this one is very short)

Sorry if I'm asking questions I asked and/or you answered at DoK - I was overwhelmed and don't remember much of the mail conversation since it was in-between talking to visitors...

Are you wearing the round head of the rivet on the inside or outside? The round head should be on the inside, not outside. It's like wearing a shirt "inside out", that is actually correct.

At DoK, were you comparing wedge riveted indian stuff with round riveted indian stuff? The difference in quality can have as much impact as the difference in the actual type of construction. Remember, we're paying really cheap labor to places that don't really care if it falls apart on us or not. There are plenty of issues with it, but to solve those issues will take work, or a couple thousand dollars - literally.

I don't remember the exact transition period and can't find the link that had the crossover info, but dome riveted mail was the most common type for a long, long time, starting with the romans (or before?). For your period, it would have been dome riveted. Wedge riveted is much later, towards late transitional or early "full plate" harnesses. Those that would have had it earlier on in the transition would be people with more financial standing and constantly staying at the forefront of armor evolution.

Tailoring your mail may help some. Having enough mail to flop around freely makes it easy for it to scratch stuff up (skin or cloth). If the round head of the rivets aren't all facing inward or outward, pick an "inside" and peen down the rivets that are rough to the touch. It doesn't take a big hammer or an anvil to do it, just a small, solid metal surface and a light hammer.

You can also look into either edging, or lining the mail. When I finish tailoring my hauberk, it's going to be lined so that it's easy to get on and won't rub or tear much. Same concept as sewing an arming cap directly to the coif, as I did with mine, and as the good Dr Metz seems to have done with his (from what I could see). I haven't seen anything to prove or disprove if mail was lined historically, but surviving stuff is so limited, and garments being natural fibers, it wouldn't survive for 1,000 years. There *IS* some historical artwork that shows what looks to be leather trim on it, and to me, leather trim makes the most sense as what they used to sew the lining onto the mail with...

The flat rings are more abrasive because they have a hard, angled edge. Round ring riveted is less abrasive because it's a curved surface. Solid vs riveted, the lack of rivet will make it less abrasive, but the ring itself comes down to being round or flat. Riveted will always be flattened around the rivet itself, too.

The "softest" mail you can get is round ring, welded mail. There's no rivets to rub, and no corners of the rings (when looking at a cross-section). The only one I know who makes that off the top of my head is Master Knuut, who does make it to your size so there's minimal / no tailoring needed, but I don't think it has any historical basis whatsoever. I've only seen it strictly in SCA context.

It comes down to a question of do you want something soft, that doesn't wear as quickly on your arming garments, or do you want something that is more historical, but has more wear-and-tear on the arming clothes. Historically, arming garments would have been replaced as needed, and the concern was more on living and being protected, rather than frayed or torn threads. If the threads did tear or fray, put a drop of super-glue or seam glue on them, and it will help keep them from fraying or pulling out more. I've worn my pourpoint once, it tore, and it got sewn. I've got a few things fraying on my arming coat that is only about a year old. They won't last forever, and aren't designed to - just keep it in mind as a wear and tear, replace as needed item - just like brake pads or tires on a car.

Hope that helps some.

Silvanus:
Hi Sir Ulrich,

I, too, have a flat-ring, dome-riveted hauberk that I've worn for years, and have worn out at least one gambeson under it in that time fighting and just general wear - and even more tabards that go over the mail, and wear out far more quickly. One thing I started doing several years ago was to throw the hauberk into a bucket filled with course sand and roll it down hill several times. Not only does this blast it clean, it also serves to lessen some of the sharpness of the edges of the rings - like sandpaper on wood. Fewer frays on my gambesons and tabards  after that. One of my fight partners took it a step further and rubs his hauberk with lard; he swears it makes the hauberk more maneuverable, and insists that it was a historical practice. Try the sand and bucket rolling before buying a whole new hauberk.

Sir Ulrich:
I could try wearing it inside out see if that helps but now the more I read about the "riveted does not equal historical" article the more I want new maille. The main issue I have now is the fact dome riveted maille nowadays doesn't look at all like historical stuff, in addition to not having the solid punched rings. My problem is the rings don't do this:

and all the time rivets fall out of my hauberk, like I will put it down on the ground and I'll see rivets on the ground. Overall I am rather dissatisfied with it now that I've actually seen and own the real stuff in person. Not tailoring my hauberk now cause I realize I want to get something new. Just need to find maille sold elsewhere that has better quality rivets. I remember Sir Nathan told me his wedge riveted hauberk wasn't missing any rivets probably because the GDFB wedge riveted stuff is made with a drift rather than a punch from what I've read. Punched riveted maille is inferior in quality to riveted maille made with a drift.

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