Main > The Courtyard
John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
Ian:
I'll have to re-read the accounts of deeds like the Combat of the Thirty, but from what I remember, they didn't sound like the BotN brawls. But yes, people like Froissart have written accounts of actual battles and tournaments, so we do have an idea of what real medieval combat was like.
I just find it amusing that people constantly call out Clements for not being knightly or chivalrous or this or that and hurling all kinds of insults his way. Is that knightly, or chivalrous to do? Pot, this is kettle.... Besides, why does Clements have to be knightly or chivalrous? Is he claiming to be a Knight? No, he's a martial arts teacher and historical researcher, and he's damn good at it.
Whether you like him or not, he's done more to bring HEMA/WMA to the public's mind than anyone, if just by virtue of him being on TV all the time unlike any of the other's mentioned. People like Dr. Sydney Anglo don't back ARMA because it's a den of iniquity like so many pretend. I have the utmost respect for all of the gentlemen mentioned in this thread, but I also have a tremendous amount of respect for John Clements and I find it tiresome that people constantly feel the need to go out of their way to bash him, when a lot of people probably wouldn't have ever even gotten the spark to be interested in HEMA/WMA if it wasn't for his efforts in the first place, be it directly as some in this thread have accounted, or indirectly by him getting the word out.
In fact, you can even take it a step further and be thankful that he comes off so abrasive sometimes, because it sparks actual discussion on technique. And that is useful! If people are just constantly avoiding conflict, you wind up with stagnation. I'm willing to be his thoughts on the krumphau alone have caused hundreds of other HEMA organizations to at least scrutinize what they were doing and really think it through, and we need that kind of thought in the art.
Sir James A:
--- Quote from: Ian on 2013-07-13, 12:16:21 ---I'll have to re-read the accounts of deeds like the Combat of the Thirty, but from what I remember, they didn't sound like the BotN brawls.
--- End quote ---
Either way, it's a once-a-year tournament (I think), and it represents a very very tiny fraction of the overall SCA group, in a tournament far different from their usual. Can't take that one tournament and extrapolate it to the rest of the SCA, just like we don't take the Tournament of the Phoenix joust by Jeffrey Hedgecock to be equivalent to the renn-fest jousts.
--- Quote from: Ian on 2013-07-13, 12:16:21 ---Besides, why does Clements have to be knightly or chivalrous? Is he claiming to be a Knight? No, he's a martial arts teacher and historical researcher, and he's damn good at it.
--- End quote ---
Sir Ian, you've pretty much nailed it. That hadn't crossed my mind. People can tell me I'm not a fire truck, and if I haven't said I'm a fire truck ... why does it matter? Brilliant!
--- Quote from: Ian on 2013-07-13, 12:16:21 ---I have the utmost respect for all of the gentlemen mentioned in this thread, but I also have a tremendous amount of respect for John Clements and I find it tiresome that people constantly feel the need to go out of their way to bash him, when a lot of people probably wouldn't have ever even gotten the spark to be interested in HEMA/WMA if it wasn't for his efforts in the first place, be it directly as some in this thread have accounted, or indirectly by him getting the word out.
--- End quote ---
Agreed. I've met him, and he wasn't a jerk. The only thing that came off harsh was the "ARMA members only" part, and the "don't talk to others" part. But that's ARMA rules, and Clements *himself* was a nice guy.
Here's a recent video of his:
He shows techniques I haven't seen anywhere else, he's dynamic with his presentation, his students are paying attention and, dare I say, even having fun. And a couple times, he asks if they're okay after showing techniques, and helps them up off the ground a few times. What a douche, right? :)
Ian:
Sir James, I meant the real Combat of the Thirty, not the SCA re-creation.
Three accounts of the historical deed can be read in Freelance's reader here:
http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/combatofthethirty.aspx
Hrolfr:
--- Quote from: Ian on 2013-07-13, 12:16:21 ---I'll have to re-read the accounts of deeds like the Combat of the Thirty, but from what I remember, they didn't sound like the BotN brawls. But yes, people like Froissart have written accounts of actual battles and tournaments, so we do have an idea of what real medieval combat was like.
--- End quote ---
CotT was not a battle, but a contencious tourney.
Agincourt
Lake Pepius
Vienna
Stamford Bridge
They were battles
--- Quote ---I just find it amusing that people constantly call out Clements for not being knightly or chivalrous or this or that and hurling all kinds of insults his way. Is that knightly, or chivalrous to do? Pot, this is kettle.... Besides, why does Clements have to be knightly or chivalrous? Is he claiming to be a Knight? No, he's a martial arts teacher and historical researcher, and he's damn good at it.
--- End quote ---
I did not "call him out" nor do I consider him "knightly' nor "chivalrous".
I find him to be a pompous ass, who may be able to kick mine, but a pompous ass anyway.
Mordred was a knight and a king, but was in no way knightly, nor chivalrous
--- Quote ---Whether you like him or not, he's done more to bring HEMA/WMA to the public's mind than anyone, if just by virtue of him being on TV all the time unlike any of the other's mentioned. People like Dr. Sydney Anglo don't back ARMA because it's a den of iniquity like so many pretend. I have the utmost respect for all of the gentlemen mentioned in this thread, but I also have a tremendous amount of respect for John Clements and I find it tiresome that people constantly feel the need to go out of their way to bash him, when a lot of people probably wouldn't have ever even gotten the spark to be interested in HEMA/WMA if it wasn't for his efforts in the first place, be it directly as some in this thread have accounted, or indirectly by him getting the word out.
--- End quote ---
So, bad 'pub' is the same as good 'pub'? His attitude may have driven away as many if not more people interested in this.
--- Quote ---In fact, you can even take it a step further and be thankful that he comes off so abrasive sometimes, because it sparks actual discussion on technique. And that is useful! If people are just constantly avoiding conflict, you wind up with stagnation. I'm willing to be his thoughts on the krumphau alone have caused hundreds of other HEMA organizations to at least scrutinize what they were doing and really think it through, and we need that kind of thought in the art.
--- End quote ---
I will leave you to your choice. I have (for the better part of a decade) to find him an ass.
I choose to leave him as such.
Ian:
--- Quote from: Hrolfr on 2013-07-13, 16:31:46 ---
CotT was not a battle, but a contencious tourney.
Agincourt
Lake Pepius
Vienna
Stamford Bridge
They were battles
--- End quote ---
Precisely why I brought up Froissart and his contemporaries after mentioning CoTT, thanks for reinforcing my point.
--- Quote from: Hrolfr on 2013-07-13, 16:31:46 ---
I did not "call him out" nor do I consider him "knightly' nor "chivalrous".
I find him to be a pompous ass, who may be able to kick mine, but a pompous ass anyway.
--- End quote ---
That's great, I'm responding to the title of this entire thread and the sentiment it carries.
--- Quote from: Hrolfr on 2013-07-13, 16:31:46 ---
So, bad 'pub' is the same as good 'pub'? His attitude may have driven away as many if not more people interested in this.
--- End quote ---
What bad publicity? His only bad publicity is inside the circles of HEMA that the public doesn't see anyway. He doesn't do bad publicity for his television interviews. The public has no idea about his reputation. They see him in things like Medieval Fight Book and Reclaiming the Blade, and he's not the monster others make him out to be in those. His actual mainstream publicity is quite tame and informative. That's what I was referring to. You're injecting his reputation in the HEMA world specifically in to what the public sees of him, and the fact of the matter is they don't see that stuff. The public interacts with John Clements the way Sir James did, by taking an introductory class. They don't see internet flame wars about how much pomposity he may or may not have. That's why I said he's done so much for putting HEMA in the minds of the public in a positive way. People just want to hate him and give him no credit for all the good he's done, and you're showing it.
--- Quote from: Hrolfr on 2013-07-13, 16:31:46 ---I did not "call him out"...".
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Hrolfr ---I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).
--- End quote ---
You didn't?
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