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Religion and Chivalry
Sir Edward:
An interesting thread just got started on the ArmourArchive forums, concerning whether religion is necessary for Chivalry. Personally I don't think it's necessary (though obviously it has been heavily intertwined historically). To me it's personal choice as to how one integrates it into other aspects of life. I'm curious to see whether my response will kick up the hornet's nest. :)
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1142192
Sword Chick:
Hi Ed,
Allow me to kick up my own hornet's nest. :) I think the replies you get are going to be colored by the faith or lack thereof of the person that replies. It's been my own experience that those that claim a disbelief in God are the most defensive about belief not being necessary for <fill in the blank with the cause of your choice.> Those that do have a strong faith can't imagine how it can be separated from <fill in the blank with the cause of your choice.>
I admit to falling into the latter category. Though I really really need a trip to the confessional ;) , my faith is an important part of my life. From that perspective, I agree with the person that posted after you, that
--- Quote ---whether it is to serve a Higher Being, or to serve a societal ideal, Chivalry involves acknowledgment of a purpose greater than the one, something worthy of one's own service and sacrifice.
--- End quote ---
But I would argue that purely serving a societal ideal is not much better than serving one's own purpose. If your society benefits, you might also.
I've used the example of Scouts before, I think the Scout Law and Oath provide a nice framework for modern chivalry. However, the Scout Law states that a scout is "reverent"and the Scout Oath promises a "duty to God." In the Scouting organization, it is not required that you follow a specific faith, but it is expected that you have some belief in a power outside of yourself.
Don't most 12 step programs (No, I'm not speaking from experience. :P) involve a belief in a higher power as well? The idea that you can't do it on your own? I would argue that "being chivalrous" without belief in a power outside of yourself really isn't. It becomes self serving in a way.
This was too quick of a response and I didn't take time to formalize my thoughts completely, for that I apologize. I was just eager to start getting some of my thoughts down.
Thanks, Ed. Good topic! (Those hornets are buzzing now I'm sure!)
Sir Edward:
--- Quote from: Sword Chick on 2008-07-16, 21:29:01 ---Allow me to kick up my own hornet's nest. :) I think the replies you get are going to be colored by the faith or lack thereof of the person that replies. It's been my own experience that those that claim a disbelief in God are the most defensive about belief not being necessary for <fill in the blank with the cause of your choice.> Those that do have a strong faith can't imagine how it can be separated from <fill in the blank with the cause of your choice.>
--- End quote ---
That's probably true in most cases. Generally I stay away from religious discussions, since people can get very defensive, and speak in strong absolutes no matter which side of the particular discussion they may fall upon. It boils down to an idealogical difference. Those who have strong belief can't understand how others can separate it in their minds. Those who don't have such strong beliefs don't understand how others integrate them.
--- Quote from: Sword Chick on 2008-07-16, 21:29:01 ---I admit to falling into the latter category. Though I really really need a trip to the confessional ;) , my faith is an important part of my life. From that perspective, I agree with the person that posted after you, that
--- Quote ---whether it is to serve a Higher Being, or to serve a societal ideal, Chivalry involves acknowledgment of a purpose greater than the one, something worthy of one's own service and sacrifice.
--- End quote ---
But I would argue that purely serving a societal ideal is not much better than serving one's own purpose. If your society benefits, you might also.
I've used the example of Scouts before, I think the Scout Law and Oath provide a nice framework for modern chivalry. However, the Scout Law states that a scout is "reverent"and the Scout Oath promises a "duty to God." In the Scouting organization, it is not required that you follow a specific faith, but it is expected that you have some belief in a power outside of yourself.
--- End quote ---
I'll echo my response on the other thread to what the person was saying... I'll agree that a person can't truly claim to be chivalrous if they place themselves too high on a pedestal. One can not see themselves as the pinnacle of the pyramid, so to speak. The ideals, and the society at large, at the very least, must be seen as higher than the self. Otherwise, what else is there to strive for?
--- Quote from: Sword Chick on 2008-07-16, 21:29:01 ---Don't most 12 step programs (No, I'm not speaking from experience. :P) involve a belief in a higher power as well? The idea that you can't do it on your own? I would argue that "being chivalrous" without belief in a power outside of yourself really isn't. It becomes self serving in a way.
--- End quote ---
I've never been in a 12-step program, so I don't know. However, there's a part of me that wants to be cautious about saying that it requires something outside yourself and that you can't do it alone. I'm not talking about external ideals and challenges. I think those are a given. And I'm not talking about religious belief as a source of strength and inspiration either. What I mean is, I don't like the thought that one must admit defeat in order to succeed, as if one is not entirely responsible for their own actions. Perhaps that's a misinterpretation, but I'm having difficulty escaping that line of thought.
--- Quote from: Sword Chick on 2008-07-16, 21:29:01 ---This was too quick of a response and I didn't take time to formalize my thoughts completely, for that I apologize. I was just eager to start getting some of my thoughts down.
Thanks, Ed. Good topic! (Those hornets are buzzing now I'm sure!)
--- End quote ---
No problem, always glad to kick up the bee hive! :)
Sword Chick:
--- Quote from: Sir Edward on 2008-07-16, 21:57:18 ---
I've never been in a 12-step program, so I don't know. However, there's a part of me that wants to be cautious about saying that it requires something outside yourself and that you can't do it alone. I'm not talking about external ideals and challenges. I think those are a given. And I'm not talking about religious belief as a source of strength and inspiration either. What I mean is, I don't like the thought that one must admit defeat in order to succeed, as if one is not entirely responsible for their own actions. Perhaps that's a misinterpretation, but I'm having difficulty escaping that line of thought.
--- End quote ---
I see it more as you are responsible for more than yourself. You have Someone/Something to answer to.
buzz.
Sir Edward:
--- Quote from: Sword Chick on 2008-07-16, 22:44:38 ---
I see it more as you are responsible for more than yourself. You have Someone/Something to answer to.
buzz.
--- End quote ---
Ah, I see :) I think we can agree on that.
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