ModernChivalry.org

Main => The Armoury => The Workshop => Topic started by: Ian on 2014-03-12, 23:58:38

Title: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-12, 23:58:38
Alright, I got around to finishing these off.

So, first cut your soles and the pieces of your uppers from leather!  I used approx 9 oz for the soles, and 3-4 oz for the uppers.  Once the sole is cut out, punch a gazillion holes around the perimeter of the sole using your awl.  A diamond shaped awl and some bees wax makes this infinitely easier than trying to use a round awl.  Thank you Sir Humphrey for the diamond shaped blade!!!  Make sure your holes are evenly spaced and repeatable to that they match up with the holes you will punch on the uppers!  The flesh side is what you see in the photo, and that's what your foot will touch.  The grain side will be in contact with the ground.  It is important to note that the awl passes through the flesh side of the leather and out the EDGE of the leather, do not punch a hole all the way through or you will be walking on your stitches and they will fail prematurely.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2491/13115374723_3e705611be_z.jpg)

My uppers are in two parts, so they had to be stitched together.  The two pieces of leather are butted together and then you run two threads simultaneously.  The needle passes through the flesh side and out the EDGE of the leather so that the stitches will not be visible on the outer surface when the shoe is turned.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7398/13115265605_7ac2fc5a69_z.jpg)

Here's the upper prior to punching holes around the perimeter.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7348/13115556384_286facc0dc_z.jpg)

On the upper, the perimeter holes pass straight through the leather from the flesh side to the grain side.  Once it's all sewn together you have an inside out shoe that fits on the wrong foot!  Try it on and make sure it fits before you go any further!

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3735/13115373743_8b0055de5e_z.jpg)

The shoe's sole is too stiff to flip the shoe inside out.  To turn the shoe you must soak it in water for a couple minutes.  The leather will now be extremely pliable.  You can see that the leather loses all of it's shape.  After I turned the shoe (hence turnshoe btw  ;D ) I put it on to help reshape it, then set it aside to dry.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7345/13115556704_f38c92e101_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7428/13115556804_d8acdcce59_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7443/13115555294_06e8ec7cb5_z.jpg)

After the shoe dries, the leather will shrink and tighten up, but the result should be a shoe-shaped object!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7400/13115264785_9b11f1a412_z.jpg)

Next step was dying the shoe.  You can certainly dye the upper before assembly as well.  It will make for a better looking finished product because there won't be any spots hard to reach with the dye like there are when the shoe is put together.  Note how puffy the wet shoe next to the dyed shoe is, you can really see the size difference that the water makes, and how it resumes its proper shape when dry.  I did 3 coats of dye on each shoe btw to get it even.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2666/13115373813_11ed6771e5_z.jpg)

You can see here the dye will lighten up as it dries.  Then punch holes for the laces, trim off any excess overlapping leather and you have a simple 14th c turnshoe!  Congrats, you're a cordwainer now!  The shoes is NOT slippery on grass as the sole is nice and supple.  It's very much like walking barefoot.  I feel very similar to wearing my goofy vibram five-finger toe shoes when wearing my turnshoes.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3717/13115554724_e5f4a18fdc_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-03-13, 00:43:33
This is awesome...all vegtan tooling leather I assume?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-03-13, 01:04:49
what did you learn from this experience?
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-13, 01:05:21
This is awesome...all vegtan tooling leather I assume?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Yes sir, both the soles and uppers are vegetable tanned undyed leather.  I used shoulders for these.  I don't think it matters if you use sides or shoulders.  I found it very easy to dye so I see no reason to buy dyed leather.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-13, 01:08:46
what did you learn from this experience?

I learned that round awls suck for punching holes in thick leather and diamond shaped awls make it soooooo much easier.

I skipped adding a heal stiffener (basically a little triangle of leather that reinforces the heel).  It goes on the inside of the heel and uses a tunnel stitch so it doesn't go through the outside piece.  I didn't bother since it was my first pair, but I will add them in the future.

Since I like the pattern, I will dye the uppers first before assembly next time.

Oh, and I used waxed linen thread for all the sewing.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Aiden of Oreland on 2014-03-13, 01:28:24
How doth they feel?
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2014-03-13, 01:29:33
shoulders are fine. no real difrerence than sides

just don't use bellys, as they tend to stretch

lol ya good new learned points.

smaller stitches drive me insane. i want stuff done now lol.  just be prepared to fix your broken threads after a few years.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-03-13, 02:05:44
Awesome!
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Rodney on 2014-03-13, 02:18:21
Sweet!  Thank you for sharing.  :)
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Humphrey on 2014-03-13, 02:41:14
They look great.  I bet they will be comfortable also.  Almost like wearing moccisins.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Naythan on 2014-03-13, 03:20:54
Another project.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Stanislaw on 2014-03-13, 03:44:37
Great job on these, Ian!
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-03-13, 04:22:35
Another project.

Ditto...luckily the leather I need for my splinted armor is 9oz and the leather I need for my corrazina is 4oz...so I will just make sure there is enough to make me a pair of turn shoes :)
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-14, 00:28:54
I've only had the opportunity to wear them for short periods of time, but they feel comfortable.  They fit snugly, but the leather stretches.  Of my experience they're most comparable to what it feels like to wear my toe-shoes.  They feel you have with the ground is a lot like being barefoot with the added protection of a 9 oz leather strip, but you can very much feel the ground, which is a good thing.

Modern shoes cause the feet to lose that 'relationship' with the ground.  These things really let you grip it.  I would recommend everyone try a more authentic period shoe before discounting medieval footwear as inappropriate for various activities.  Remember, it's generally crappy medieval'ish footwear that gives rise to the idea that medieval shoes are inappropriate for things like WMA, SCA, any activity on grass, etc...
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Aiden of Oreland on 2014-03-14, 01:02:11
 ???
I've only had the opportunity to wear them for short periods of time, but they feel comfortable.  They fit snugly, but the leather stretches.  Of my experience they're most comparable to what it feels like to wear my toe-shoes.  They feel you have with the ground is a lot like being barefoot with the added protection of a 9 oz leather strip, but you can very much feel the ground, which is a good thing.

Modern shoes cause the feet to lose that 'relationship' with the ground.  These things really let you grip it.  I would recommend everyone try a more authentic period shoe before discounting medieval footwear as inappropriate for various activities.  Remember, it's generally crappy medieval'ish footwear that gives rise to the idea that medieval shoes are inappropriate for things like WMA, SCA, any activity on grass, etc...

Well, you have to remember that most of todays people walk on solid ground, that doesn't have any give. So modern days shoes are in some ways better for our feet. Remember that our feet are made to walk on soft ground that has some give to it. The ground softens our step. So medieval shoes were good because they walked on earth most of the time. The shoes were good for the time, just like how ours are good for our time.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2014-03-14, 01:07:20
Those look awesome. I'm gonna have to make my own someday but I probably wont wear them anywhere cept DoK cause I could imagine pavement and rocks not being so forgiving on them. Though I bet these don't slip and slide at all compared to the "hard soled" boots most reproduction stuff is. Will have to make my own pair one day, perhaps soles like this would let me lace maille chausses easier to my feet.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-14, 01:11:39
I disagree with you Sir Aiden.  There is currently a resurgence in minimalist footwear for modern use.  I'm a believer through years of experience.

I wear five-finger shoes to run on the hard street with and do all of my physical training with, and have for 3 years now.  The problem is that modern shoes with all their cushioning encourage you to land on your heel, which physiologically is not how you are supposed to land while running.  Your heel is not a shock absorber.  So we cushion them up on modern shoes.  It's a self-perpetuating problem.

When you run barefoot, or in five-fingers, you're forced to run like you're supposed to run.  That is, being a forefoot striker.  If you land on the ball of your foot, like you naturally do while sprinting anyway, the action of the foot landing on the ball, collapsing back to the heel, and then re-propelling off the forefoot is what your body was designed to do in order to absorb the shock of running.

I used to have knee problems, when I started running on hard surfaces with NO protection except for the minimal sole on five-fingers, and forced myself to re-learn how to run properly, all my knee problems went away.

All the stabilizing muscles in my ankles and mid foot that had been atrophied from the use of modern supportive footwear, re-strengthened on their own as they were intended to be used.

Medieval footwear replicates this experience.

The reason modern folks discount the use of medieval footwear has little to do with protection, but a lot to do with the poor mass production techniques used that give rise to the false belief that medieval footwear is slippery.  This is entirely false.  That's why people shouldn't knock 'em til they try 'em.  Mass produced medieval garbage does NOT equal real medieval footwear.

In fact, part of the reason I made these was because I always suspected that authentic medieval footwear would be very similar to the modern minimalist approach.  I was very happy to confirm my suspicions. 

The only thing I will concede is that authentic medieval footwear WILL wear out prematurely on pavement because of the leather soles getting chewed up.  But those can easily be replaced, as the upper will remain intact.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-03-14, 03:03:35
When you run barefoot, or in five-fingers, you're forced to run like you're supposed to run.  That is, being a forefoot striker.  If you land on the ball of your foot, like you naturally do while sprinting anyway, the action of the foot landing on the ball, collapsing back to the heel, and then re-propelling off the forefoot is what your body was designed to do in order to absorb the shock of running.

I walk around barefoot a lot (or in socks during cold months) and I never noticed this before, but you're right. When I do anything faster than a walk, I automatically want to land on the balls of my feet; it's more comfortable, especially on hard or rough surfaces like a side walk. So do you think medieval people ran differently than we do today since they didn't have modern supportive footwear to mess with their natural body dynamics?

And the shoes really look great! Now you need to make some poulaines with ridiculously long toes. ;)
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2014-03-14, 06:43:31
Ian I have a question, how much did the stuff cost you to make these shoes. Cause I am seriously considering making my own turnshoes for DoK Frankfort and need patterns tools and some leather sewing kits. If it feels like walking barefoot then I am pretty sure I would LOVE a pair of these simple turnshoes, I am very uncomfortable in most shoes even modern ones as I spend most of my time barefoot. The viking leathercraft shoes have a nasty habit of making my big toe numb because I got odd shaped feet and making my own should solve that issue.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-14, 18:38:36
Ian I have a question, how much did the stuff cost you to make these shoes. Cause I am seriously considering making my own turnshoes for DoK Frankfort and need patterns tools and some leather sewing kits. If it feels like walking barefoot then I am pretty sure I would LOVE a pair of these simple turnshoes, I am very uncomfortable in most shoes even modern ones as I spend most of my time barefoot. The viking leathercraft shoes have a nasty habit of making my big toe numb because I got odd shaped feet and making my own should solve that issue.

The leather itself is the only thing that's expensive... For all the leather I bought it was a couple hundred dollars, but I have enough leather to make lots of pairs of shoes..

If you could find a small piece of leather, enough for only a pair or two, it would be relatively inexpensive.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-03-14, 18:41:41
Sounds to me like Sir Ian is ready to take commissions :)
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-14, 18:43:36
Sounds to me like Sir Ian is ready to take commissions :)

I would seriously consider this.. the only problem though is that I only know how to make these for MY feet :)  I'm not sure how to adjust the pattern for other folks' feet since I don't have them here to look at, and I don't want to make something that doesn't fit.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-03-14, 20:43:15
Maybe have them send in a tracing on their feet. Might help with the soles, at least. Not sure what to do about the uppers.
You'd also probably have to get some lasts (is that what they're called?) in different sizes, or perhaps send them out unturned with instructions on soaking them and turning them and whatnot.

I don't know...just some thoughts. I understand your concern, though. I have the same problem. :)
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2014-03-14, 20:48:45
That I would buy honestly. Could use a pair of "shoes that feel barefoot" as my feet never feel right in any shoes really. Would prolly be easier with a "plaster cast" similar to what Jeff does to make greaves.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-03-14, 21:11:43
Sounds to me like Sir Ian is ready to take commissions :)

I would seriously consider this.. the only problem though is that I only know how to make these for MY feet :)  I'm not sure how to adjust the pattern for other folks' feet since I don't have them here to look at, and I don't want to make something that doesn't fit.

You could have them give you measurements...I read a good tutorial on one of the websites as to what measurements are needed to make a proper pattern.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Aiden of Oreland on 2014-03-14, 22:18:51
Sounds to me like Sir Ian is ready to take commissions :)

I would seriously consider this.. the only problem though is that I only know how to make these for MY feet :)  I'm not sure how to adjust the pattern for other folks' feet since I don't have them here to look at, and I don't want to make something that doesn't fit.

You could have them give you measurements...I read a good tutorial on one of the websites as to what measurements are needed to make a proper pattern.

I don't think measurements would work if the shoes are molded to your feet. Well, from the info that Sir Ian gave would make me conclude this.

Sir Ian, I completely see what your saying and maybe you're right. But this would be a great modern study, and from what I can perceive, isn't one that is looked into enough. Methinks a problem with modern day is that society is too worried with what looks good and is fashionable(not saying medieval people weren't the same way). Ya know, the old bandwagon. Maybe modern day could compromise with a synthetic sole that feels and acts like a leather one, but still keep the stylish top. Would be cool to look into.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-03-15, 02:13:25
ah yeah i see what you mean...just ship it before it gets turned i guess...or send him a waterproof cast (sealed in plastic or a paint so it won't melt under the wet turnshoe...
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-15, 02:57:43
It's not that it molds to your foot when it's wet.  It's that they have to fit very well.  The pattern really needs to be made to your foot, not to a standard size. 
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-03-15, 23:42:59
Sounds to me like Sir Ian is ready to take commissions :)

I would seriously consider this.. the only problem though is that I only know how to make these for MY feet :)  I'm not sure how to adjust the pattern for other folks' feet since I don't have them here to look at, and I don't want to make something that doesn't fit.

You can look at my feet next time you're up here, if you really want to. :D

I agree on the soft soles. I remember an article a few years back about a guy who was running barefoot, and had other people doing the same with him. Everybody thought he was nutty.

I did have issues with soft / flat soles. Part of that was that MDRF is loose rocks in some spots, and I felt every bit of it. Part of it may have also been they were the really cheap MRL ones that a lot of people start out with. My main concern with medieval / flat soles would be combat, and how easily can I push somebody around who has minimal grip on the ground. I'm thinking historically it wasn't a big deal since they would have virtually all had flat soles, whereas with moderns it can be a question of lugged vs flat. Wet ground would increase the differential in traction.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Naythan on 2014-03-16, 04:00:31
If we could buy shoes from you that would be awesome.
Also, People may be meant to land on the front of their feet, but we're also not made to run on stone( concrete, tar, cement, etc.)  we are meant to run on grass, and dirt.
I'm not a big foot expert but I can say that much.
But for modern day it has become popular to have support on your feet to a point that's ridiculous.
We just need to go back to chucks.
Or medieval footwear :)
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-16, 10:25:56
Sir Nate,  as I've mentioned earlier in this thread I run on the hard street 3 or 4 times a week with minimalist footwear and it cured my knee problems. Please understand this is not just some unresearched assertion I'm making. It comes from a lot of background research and years of doing it myself. Modern man does not give his own body enough credit, end of story.

As for shoes, I'm not going to be making any for anyone any time soon as I refuse to make a product that I cannot stand behind as having a good fit. I encourage anyone interested to make their own.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Naythan on 2014-03-18, 23:05:33
Sir Nate,  as I've mentioned earlier in this thread I run on the hard street 3 or 4 times a week with minimalist footwear and it cured my knee problems. Please understand this is not just some unresearched assertion I'm making. It comes from a lot of background research and years of doing it myself. Modern man does not give his own body enough credit, end of story.

As for shoes, I'm not going to be making any for anyone any time soon as I refuse to make a product that I cannot stand behind as having a good fit. I encourage anyone interested to make their own.

Ha! Make them, if only I had more time to sooner than now.
We'll like I said, I'm no foot expert, I guess I gave a good example of how modern man doesn't give enough credit to the body. In a similar case to humans, my step father believes a lot of great builds like the pyramids were made by aliens, because humans didn't have the skill. I always tell him he is not giving our ancestors enough credit.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-19, 00:14:41
I always tell him he is not giving our ancestors enough credit.

That sir, is the truth!

So after a full weekend of wearing my turnshoes all day, they gave me no problems.  The only issue I had was one of my shoes coming untied once, but that happens on any shoe, modern or medieval. :)

I wore them on pavement for a time, and of course they're not that comfortable on pavement since there's no padding, but what I did notice is the wear on the sole was minimal which was a pleasant surprise.  It rained on Sunday afternoon while we broke down, and I literally ran in them on wet grass and no slippage!

Came home and oiled the leather with neatsfoot oil and they look no worse for the wear.  Overall, I declare them a success.  I will make a second pair when I get the chance so one can serve as arming shoes, and the other will not have pointing holes in the toes.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir James A on 2014-03-19, 02:37:18
It rained on Sunday afternoon while we broke down, and I literally ran in them on wet grass and no slippage!

So much for my hopes of bullying Sir Nathan around on wet grass at some point! (I have lugged soles, he has slicks) :o

As far as not slipping or sliding, do you think it helps that you are used to running with the five-toed shoes and running properly, instead of "modern"? I slipped in mud with the cheapo-starter-flat-soles, but that was clumsily trudging around the faire site; and that was just while walking, let alone running.

I will make a second pair when I get the chance so one can serve as arming shoes

You have a typo, I think you left off "for James" from the end of that sentence?
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-19, 10:56:25
As far as not slipping or sliding, do you think it helps that you are used to running with the five-toed shoes and running properly, instead of "modern"? I slipped in mud with the cheapo-starter-flat-soles, but that was clumsily trudging around the faire site; and that was just while walking, let alone running.

No, I'll explain why.  When I got my turmshoes by bohemond turnshoes walking on carpet felt like walking on ice, and I took two steps outside on the grass and almost ate dirt because of those soles.  That was my inspiration to make my own, since modern makers refuse to get it right, or you have to spend 100's of $$.  The experience running in five-fingers is more helpful when it comes to how to land while running on a hard surface barefoot to prevent injury.  If you land on your heel you'll send shock up your lower leg and cause pain in your knees and hips, it's injury prevention, not non-slippage practice.

Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Aiden of Oreland on 2014-03-20, 00:39:03
As far as not slipping or sliding, do you think it helps that you are used to running with the five-toed shoes and running properly, instead of "modern"? I slipped in mud with the cheapo-starter-flat-soles, but that was clumsily trudging around the faire site; and that was just while walking, let alone running.

No, I'll explain why.  When I got my turmshoes by bohemond turnshoes walking on carpet felt like walking on ice, and I took two steps outside on the grass and almost ate dirt because of those soles.  That was my inspiration to make my own, since modern makers refuse to get it right, or you have to spend 100's of $$.  The experience running in five-fingers is more helpful when it comes to how to land while running on a hard surface barefoot to prevent injury.  If you land on your heel you'll send shock up your lower leg and cause pain in your knees and hips, it's injury prevention, not non-slippage practice.

Thus the knee pains?
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-03-20, 00:50:12
Thus the knee pains?

Yes, that's exactly why you need to forefoot strike if you run barefoot or in minimalist footwear... otherwise your knees will pay the price.  But if you do forefoot strike you can run on hard surfaces all day long and have no knee or hip issues.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Aiden of Oreland on 2014-03-20, 00:52:05
Thus the knee pains?

Yes, that's exactly why you need to forefoot strike if you run barefoot or in minimalist footwear... otherwise your knees will pay the price.  But if you do forefoot strike you can run on hard surfaces all day long and have no knee or hip issues.

Well, maybe it'd be good for me start early then  :)
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Edward on 2014-03-20, 13:03:22
Thus the knee pains?

Yes, that's exactly why you need to forefoot strike if you run barefoot or in minimalist footwear... otherwise your knees will pay the price.  But if you do forefoot strike you can run on hard surfaces all day long and have no knee or hip issues.

Well, maybe it'd be good for me start early then  :)

Absolutely. Build good habits now. They'll serve you well for a lifetime.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Humphrey on 2014-03-20, 15:52:30
I think there is something to Ian's assertions.  I'm pushing 60 with occasional bouts of plantar flechitis and I carry a 8 inch plate and 15 big deck screws above one of my ankles from a long ago accident.  I spent three days on my feet in turn shoes at the last DOK talking to the 'taters.  Suprizingly, I had zero foot or leg pain in the days after the event, pain that is normally there from being on my feet for extended times in heeled shoes of other eras (even modern.)  There is something in the orientation of the foot being flat on the ground that helped me in this regard.  Your milage may vary.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-04-08, 14:44:59
So I have bought leather that would be suitable for the sole (7-9oz shoulder) and am looking for a good leather that would work for trimmings for my armor and also the top of my turnshoes...I found this at tandy and was wondering how suitable it would be...

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/home/department/leather/tooling-shoulders-bends-bellies/9048-557.aspx (http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/home/department/leather/tooling-shoulders-bends-bellies/9048-557.aspx)

It is vegtan but it has been milled down...the grain almost reminds me of chrome tanned leather...the price is about right and that is a lot of square footage I can use for my Corrazina, flanges on elbows and knee cops and turn shoes!
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-04-11, 19:22:14
Anyone have any opinions on milled leather? I did see on tandy some other 3-4 oz leather going up for sale...but it being milled might make it feel a lot smoother when turned in...I was wondering if anyone had worked with it before...

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/home/department/leather/tooling-shoulders-bends-bellies/9157-86.aspx (http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/home/department/leather/tooling-shoulders-bends-bellies/9157-86.aspx)

is actually cheaper...
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-04-11, 21:35:24
I don't think it would be bad.  I'm not sure if they accept dye differently or not being softened.  At that price it's worth it to experiment!

I just turned one of my new pair, and I highly recommend dying the uppers first, they look so much neater than the last pair where the uppers meet the sole.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-04-11, 22:43:20
I am using a water based dye and from all the reviews I have read it should not bleed ink so definitely want to dye it before sewing and turning it!

Question, should I finish it with neatsfoot oil before turning it or after it has been turned and sewn? Usually I would finish it then sew it up but not sure with have it to wet it and turn it...
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-04-12, 00:52:33
I am using a water based dye and from all the reviews I have read it should not bleed ink so definitely want to dye it before sewing and turning it!

Question, should I finish it with neatsfoot oil before turning it or after it has been turned and sewn? Usually I would finish it then sew it up but not sure with have it to wet it and turn it...

Not sure how water based dye will react when you wet and turn your shoe.  I use oil based dye since its not soluble in water and shoes get wet a lot.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-04-16, 20:46:44
From looking at your pattern, could I actually just make the top piece from one piece of leather and avoid the saddle stitch? or is there a reason for a two piece construction of the top?
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-04-16, 21:05:48
You could do it from one
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-04-17, 14:13:53
Perfect!
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-04-17, 16:27:07
To get a good idea of historical patterns based on real finds I recommend the following books:

1. Leather and Leatherworking in Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York (http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/resources/AY17-16-Leather%20and%20leatherworking.pdf)
 (Free PDF!)

2. Shoes and Pattens: Medieval Finds from Excavations in London (http://www.amazon.com/Shoes-Pattens-Medieval-Excavations-London/dp/1843832380/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=10FAYGM4QGVM0RPZK2EZ)

3. Stepping Through Time - this one is kind of the definitive standard on historical footwear, but good luck finding it for an affordable price

If you're going to go to the trouble of making turnshoes, I caution you from copying other people's reproduction patterns, go to the source! :)
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2014-04-17, 17:05:13
I saw Stepping Through Time on Amazon once for about 80 bucks, which I thought was a lot of money. Had I known the price was going to jump to $999.00, I probably would have grabbed it. :'(
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-04-17, 17:28:55
Wow that PDF is awesome...I know what I am doing for easter weekend...
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Don Jorge on 2014-04-17, 17:32:39
I saw Stepping Through Time on Amazon once for about 80 bucks, which I thought was a lot of money. Had I known the price was going to jump to $999.00, I probably would have grabbed it. :'(

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/stepping-through-time.html (http://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/stepping-through-time.html)

35 british pounds...

http://www.booksamillion.com/p/Stepping-Through-Time/Olaf-Goubitz/9789089320025 (http://www.booksamillion.com/p/Stepping-Through-Time/Olaf-Goubitz/9789089320025)

$75

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/pdfs/books/purses%20amerika.pdf (http://www.oxbowbooks.com/pdfs/books/purses%20amerika.pdf)

freee
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-04-17, 19:18:38
The Books a Million link is much like Amazon 'shipping in 2-4 weeks' but they never actually get them back in stock to ship.  May have to try that import version.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: scott2978 on 2014-12-07, 10:44:49
Hey Ian I know this is kinda thread necro, but would you mind telling us if there is any difference between your shoes for civil wear and your shoes for wearing under armor? Are the laces the same and everything?
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2014-12-07, 11:05:42
All the lacing on my shoes are just leather. My arming shoes have an additional set of points at the toe and are side lacing . Every other style of shoe I've made use different types of enclosures and designs, but one pair of my civil shoes are very similar to my arming shoes . I've done about 4 different shoe styles with different pattern variations and enclosures to completion and a couple others I wasn't happy with. 

I just prefer side lacing for arming shoes because it keeps the laces out of the way of my sabatons. For civil turnshoes any documented design will do.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: jkoelker on 2016-08-23, 19:43:23
Hi Ian,

New member, but I've followed your work on your YouTube page, which I love. I was about to jump into a turnshoe project using another tutorial, but I much prefer the look of yours (and it is closer to my period/persona).

I just wanted to ask, how did you go about defining the patterns for your bottom and uppers? It seems like a bit of a trick to ensure the length of the upper aligns with the edge of the soles. I'd like to avoid ruining any leather as I attempt this, so I figured I'd ask for your insights as you took those first steps. The rest I don't think will be a problem for me with my current experience with leather working, but drawing the patterns accurately is not a skill I have developed yet!

Thanks,
Josh
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2016-08-24, 02:17:52
Hi Josh,

This was just my first pair and I've learned a lot since then. It was a copy of another pair of shoes I had laying around so I already had a pattern that fit me properly.  Ideally you need a last (a wooden or plastic foot form, but they can be made from duct tape).  Then the upper will get stretched over the last to marry up to the sole.  The upper will generally stretch a little bit beyond the edges of the sole, they don't need to line up perfectly, because the excess will get cut off after the upper is stitched on.  For patterns I generally use the first three books listed here (http://knyghterrant.com/index.php/recommendations/books/leatherworking-and-leather-goods-books/)  and I will try to tweak them to my own foot or to a last.  I've made a mock up of a pattern in fabric before just to get an idea of coverage.  One day I will write up a much better tutorial and post it on the website.  In the mean time, check out those books.  "Shoes and Pattens" is probably the least expensive and easiest to get a hold of.  There's also this free pdf that has a lot of information about construction and includes patterns (http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/AY17-16-Leather-and-leatherworking.pdf)

-Ian
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: jkoelker on 2016-08-30, 13:33:55
Thanks so much for the tips, Ian. I took a crack at creating a pair this past weekend, and I'm rather pleased with the result. Using your guide as well as another guide I found online I had little difficulty putting these together. Creating the pattern was really the most challenging part, but now that I have one saved I should be able to make future pairs with much more ease.

I'll be dying these a light brown today and call them done. I'm curious, did you find that they stiffen up too much when you dyed them? From past experience I've found that leather tends to become more rigid and brittle when dyed. Also, what type of leather treatment did you use to preserve the shoe afterwards?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Ian on 2016-08-30, 18:08:08
I'm curious, did you find that they stiffen up too much when you dyed them? From past experience I've found that leather tends to become more rigid and brittle when dyed. Also, what type of leather treatment did you use to preserve the shoe afterwards?

Yes, until you treat them with something, then the soften right back up.  I use pure neatsfoot oil on most of my medieval leather projects.  It restores the suppleness to the leather and offers some moisture protection.  You can always use an oil / beeswax mixture to add more of a water 'proofing' to the leather, and some people just use modern leather conditioners or water proofing solutions.  My shoes almost always tend to get wet at events.  I just make sure they're not in a crushed state as they dry out, then I will wipe them clean and apply more oil as necessary.    I've also found (for the future) that dying before assembly sometimes results in a nicer finished product just because it prevents you from having to try and get dye into the turned seam without getting it all over the soles (which I leave plain).
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: jkoelker on 2016-08-30, 21:28:16
Thanks for the advice. I thought about pre-dying, but I wasn't sure how it'd react being in water so much for the soaking process. It's funny, I also found that, although both shoes were cut from the exact same patterns, one ended up being slightly bigger after drying. I might re-soak it and let it dry again and see if that works.
Title: Re: Simple 14th C Turnshoes (Photo Heavy)
Post by: Lord Dane on 2016-08-31, 02:25:13
Very nice turn-out (Pun intended). :)