ModernChivalry.org

Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Douglas on 2013-08-23, 02:06:15

Title: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-08-23, 02:06:15
I'm not sure which category this would fall under, so I'm just going to stick it here to be safe. If it needs moved, go ahead and move it. :)

When I first started playing Medieval II: Total War — specifically the Teutonic Campaign — I noticed some of the Teutonic Ritterbrüder had these big wings slapped to the sides of their helms. There's also a similar helm in M&B Warband. (See attached pics if my description is vague and confusing)

Sure, it looks pretty cool, but does anyone know if such a practice actually existed? I know knights would stick all kinds of things on their helms during tournaments, and there are some examples of similar attachments on German funerary helms, but in actual combat, it just doesn't seem practical to have big, giant horn/wingie-things on your helmet. It seems a great place for your opponent's weapon to get tangled.

Thus the question is: Were these things real, or just as made-up as the horns on Viking helmets? I haven't been able to dig up any historical evidence for them yet.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Naythan on 2013-08-23, 04:01:18
I have a german teutonic knight figurine with the wings. I think they did have them, Because ive been seeing it alot. but the same could be said for vikings and horns. they don't sell the viking helmets with horns on any site I go on, neither are any teutonic helms with wings. Ill look into it.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Naythan on 2013-08-23, 04:06:36
As far as I can find out, there is hardly any subject of the matter. There isn't much evidence of it and what there is of it was probably not used for battle.
This was probably just used for decoration by certain knights im sure, and most likely it was removable or knights had a separate helmet for battle.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-08-23, 13:17:20
I went ahead and moved this over to The Armoury section, since it's a question pertaining to real life helmets.

These actually did exist. There were a wide range of helmet crests used, and one fantastic example of this in artwork is Codex Manesse. I've attached a couple of images for reference:

http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/manesse/contents_body.htm (http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/manesse/contents_body.htm)
http://pinterest.com/khaentlahn/1304-1340-codex-manesse-images-only-zurich-switzer/ (http://pinterest.com/khaentlahn/1304-1340-codex-manesse-images-only-zurich-switzer/)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-08-23, 13:32:53
Sir Nathan of the Order of the Marshal has a helmet with similar crest, and a good bit of knowledge on the subject historically... he will probably reply in the next few days.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-08-23, 14:45:45
Cool links, Sir Edward. Thanks! How did I ever miss that one of Tannhauser? Especially since it's right there on the Teutonic Knights' Wikipedia page...staring me right in the face...shouting "Hey stupid, over here!" ;D

So it looks like that particular style of wings was a heraldic crest unique to an individual knight, and not a helmet decoration that's part of the standard Teutonic kit as it would seem in M2TW. Obviously it's just a game and not a historical simulation (that's why I like to check into these things before I accept them as true).

Also, a couple of the Manesse images suggest that some of these crests may have been worn in actual combat and not just for tournaments and the like. I'm not terribly knowledgeable on crests; I'll have to read into it some more. Perhaps Sir Nathan will have some more information, too.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir William on 2013-08-23, 15:05:18
Sir Nathan is our resident guru on things Teutonic; if anyone will know, it'll be him.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: SirNathanQ on 2013-08-24, 05:44:12
Teutonic Knights you say? Well yes, the crazy crested helms existed. I sport one myself. You see, while crests do make wonderful levers in the heat of battle, many were mounted to easily come off without any serious harm to the wearer. They serve a very practical purpose of identifying leaders in battle, where a surcoat might be obscured by bodies in the fray, a crest would rise above the line of heads, so that the soldiers would know their leader lived.
Among the Teutonic Knights, only leaders would be granted permission to wear one (I myself portray the Grosskomptur, the 2nd highest office within the Order in the Beauseant Brotherhood, and for Living History, I portray a Komptur, a district leader) and since they sacrificed personal heraldry to enter the Order, often the crest would take a strange shape, like wings, a fist, a wolf's head, horns, ect.
Hope that helps.  :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: B. Patricius on 2013-08-24, 09:12:41
and here I was hoping Sir Nathan started this thread to show off a new crest!

the crests, and how they developed is a very interesting discussion in heraldry and archaeology as a whole.  There aren't too many left of extant examples for us to admire.  One really good example is "The Black Prince" Prince Edward.  Here is an image from the Cantebury Cathedral taken from google:
(http://www.britainexpress.com/images/attractions/editor/Canterbury-1747.jpg)
it's something that indeed came about to help in the fog of war and to help identify leaders.  It's very much the same as the flags sashimono used in feudal Japan:
(http://www.samoerai.name/samurai-sashimono-big.jpg)

to me, it's one of those amazing instances where the historical context actually is there for something most people think is made up. ;)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2013-08-24, 22:32:49
They did historically exist, I also know where you could buy them but they're located in Europe:
http://www.armorymarek.com/helmets-12th--13th-century (http://www.armorymarek.com/helmets-12th--13th-century)
I would of gotten one, but I want my helmet to be a bit more versatile so I went with the dargen great helm, which is iconically German/Crusader. I could add a crest if I wanted but I dont think I will at the moment. Needless to say they do look quite intimidating and badass I really like the ones with the fists and hands on top, they're rather imposing looking which is rather cool.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-08-25, 17:34:11
Thank you, Sir Nathan! Very helpful indeed. What would they have been made out of historically? Leather/wood/etc. like other crests? Something lightweight I would assume.

to me, it's one of those amazing instances where the historical context actually is there for something most people think is made up. ;)
Ha! Yeah, isn't it funny how that works? There's so much nonsense out there that sometimes it's hard to tell what's real and what isn't. I find that often times fact is wilder than fiction.

Man, how I would love to see the Black Prince's gear up close and in person. Such a wealth of information there. Maybe one day....


I really want to make a crested Teutonic helm, now. :P
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: SirNathanQ on 2013-08-25, 22:02:47
You hit the nail on the head, leather and wood are exactly what you (and history) would use.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: B. Patricius on 2013-08-28, 22:30:48
First off,

Douglas, that's a beautiful kit you're sporting.  Really nice.

Second,

Sir Ulrich!  :o 8)Man bud, you always find a way to spend my money lol where does one find the purchasing icon on that website?
They did historically exist, I also know where you could buy them but they're located in Europe:
http://www.armorymarek.com/helmets-12th--13th-century (http://www.armorymarek.com/helmets-12th--13th-century)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-08-30, 15:08:58
Pavel is in the Czech Republic. If I remember right he only does money orders. But if you send him an email, he will send you a current prices spreadsheet. You just cross reference the letter/number on the sheet with the item you want.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: SirNathanQ on 2013-08-30, 17:15:12
Or you could make them, which honestly isn't too hard.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-09-05, 01:29:15
First off,

Douglas, that's a beautiful kit you're sporting.  Really nice.
Thank you, my good sir. :) There's about a year's worth of labor right there, but it's a labor of love. lol

Or you could make them, which honestly isn't too hard.
What would you say would be the most efficient and/or accurate way of attaching something like that to a helm? Specifically the ones that come out of the side of the helm.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: SirNathanQ on 2013-09-05, 13:06:49
Crests mounted on the side are way trickier than top mounted ones. Bolts are feasible, but unadvised since you really get the tightness that holds it in place from the sides of the helmet against your noggin.
I suppose you could try using a large screw into the wood from the inside and covering the projecting head with some padding.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-10-15, 01:19:15
This is somewhat pertinent to my original topic.

Here's the helm I'm making to which I had intended to add a crest. I'm still leaning towards the Teutonic "wings" just because I like how they look, but I'm not sure yet; they would probably take a little bit of engineering ingenuity. The original piece that the helm is based on has holes along the top that were supposedly for mounting a crest, so if I poke holes in it, I suppose it would still be "correct" should I decide to remove the crest to use the helm with a different kit.

Or, I might just leave it as is, in which case it wouldn't be relevant to the original topic at all. ::)
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1384360_634870739867773_393727502_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-10-15, 02:51:00

That should work pretty well. Drilling some holes to have attachments is probably the most accurate way to do it.

Using velcro and magnets like I did, not so much. :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-10-15, 16:55:00
Make two helmets, one with holes on the top, one with holes on the side. :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-10-15, 21:02:20
no make 3 helmets, one with holes on the top, one with holes on the side and one for me
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-10-24, 00:42:20
Okay, I've got some horns in the works. I was originally going to attach "fins" on them like in the Tannhauser image and the pics in the original post, but I'm not sure yet. Any ideas or suggestions as to what the best thing to make them out of would be? ???
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: SirNathanQ on 2013-10-24, 05:04:29
You could drill holes along the horn outside, and put feathers in them. It would look wing-like. A much more difficult method would be to cut slots along the outside, and insert a thin leather or wood wing into the slot.
Just some ideas. Did I mention your shaping is superb? Good work thusfar!  :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Brian on 2013-10-24, 08:15:08
Truly an excellent job on the helm and the horns thus far! I can't wait to see the finished project! :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Jason Simonds on 2013-10-24, 12:59:47
Wonderous job, well done. Cant wait to see the finished product.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-10-24, 13:03:14
those rock.

feathers, leather would both work for your needs. some holes and glue should hold them to the wood i would think. are you gonna drill the helmet and put small bolts from the inside into the horns?
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-10-24, 14:38:52
I was going to suggest what Sir Nathan mentioned, adding slots with leather "wings". Getting the shaping right might be difficult though.

And agreed, great work on the wood shaping! It looks really good! I know if I tried that, my problem would be getting them to match each other. :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-10-24, 16:05:19
Thank you, good sirs! ;D
And thank you for the suggestions. Sometimes my biggest problem is deciding what I want to do and narrowing down my options, but now I have someplace to start.

are you gonna drill the helmet and put small bolts from the inside into the horns?

Yeah, I was thinking about drilling out a pair of holes on each side approximately where the holes are on the original Bolzano helm, give or take a few centimeters, then screwing them on from the inside. The horns are fairly light, so hopefully that will be enough to hold it.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-10-24, 16:52:52
Thank you, good sirs! ;D
And thank you for the suggestions. Sometimes my biggest problem is deciding what I want to do and narrowing down my options, but now I have someplace to start.

are you gonna drill the helmet and put small bolts from the inside into the horns?

Yeah, I was thinking about drilling out a pair of holes on each side approximately where the holes are on the original Bolzano helm, give or take a few centimeters, then screwing them on from the inside. The horns are fairly light, so hopefully that will be enough to hold it.

btw, wheres a picture of mine at?
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-10-24, 17:20:59
Yes, great job on the shaping! And nice T-Stake in the background too. :D
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-10-24, 17:29:36
btw, wheres a picture of mine at?
If'n you want one, I can make 'em. ;)

Yes, great job on the shaping! And nice T-Stake in the background too. :D
Thank you! And that's my newest toy you're looking at. I just happened to get very lucky at a recent flea market. :D
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings!
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-10-31, 00:15:56
A few progress pics:

I was making up a template that I intended to use on leather and I came up with a little bit different idea. I used materials close to what they would have had access to historically (yeah, I used wood glue instead of hide or cheese glue ;) ), but the actual accuracy of these is dubious. In this case, I'm okay with that as long as it works. Nice and light, too. Walking around with it on without hitting anything will be another matter, though.
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1450336_643131365708377_1390585345_n.jpg)

More or less what it will look like with the helm:
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/q77/s720x720/1381370_643131309041716_595250939_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-10-31, 01:07:57
WOW  :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Ian on 2013-10-31, 01:50:39
Holy crap!  Those look outstanding!
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-10-31, 11:54:01
ya well...... those chair cushions are sooooooooooo not period.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-10-31, 16:22:12
Now you just need a "wings, EXPAND" button and the spit launcher, and you're good!

FAMILY GUY when Chris changed to Lizard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvY8kaIlRrI#ws)

Seriously though, great work!
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir William on 2013-10-31, 16:30:07
Nicely done, Douglas...really nice.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-10-31, 18:10:10

Wow geez, that looks fantastic! I'm in awe of your skill. :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-10-31, 19:04:43
ya well...... those chair cushions are sooooooooooo not period.

But. But. They're camouflage...how did you see them? :o
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir William on 2013-10-31, 19:57:37
It never ceases to amaze me what Sir Wolf will find...lol
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-11-01, 01:08:38
It never ceases to amaze me what Sir Wolf will find...lol

i have no idea what your talking about....... hey you didn't use American yellow pine did you for those horns?
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-01, 02:18:38
It never ceases to amaze me what Sir Wolf will find...lol

i have no idea what your talking about....... hey you didn't use American yellow pine did you for those horns?

Uh, well, erm....Would you believe I get my wood from a......Viking explorer? His name is, uh, Olaf.... Lowesson....
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-11-01, 13:12:22
Uh, well, erm....Would you believe I get my wood from a......Viking explorer? His name is, uh, Olaf.... Lowesson....

Darn Vikings... they've been everywhere!

I guess another way of saying that is that you should be careful, because you don't know where they've been! ;)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: SirNathanQ on 2013-11-01, 19:30:57
Looks great! Good job! Can't wait to see it complete!    :D
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Lord Dane on 2013-11-02, 01:12:42
Nice work ... However, I feel like the membership is being silently taken over by Teutonic influence. Is there no more love for us poor Templar? LOL
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-11-02, 17:15:59
Nice work ... However, I feel like the membership is being silently taken over by Teutonic influence. Is there no more love for us poor Templar? LOL

I've got some Templar gear for next season, but still working on finishing up tailoring my mail. The Templars are just less obvious than the Teutonics. ;)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-02, 17:44:41
I have a Hospitaller heater shield that I made a while back. Does that count? ;)

The Templars are just less obvious than the Teutonics. ;)

Yeah, all that secret society stuff and whatnot. 8)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: SirNathanQ on 2013-11-03, 09:24:11
Pshh. More like their acute lack of a nation-state!  :D
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2013-11-03, 09:47:01
You did a good job on that man, maybe at DoK 3.0 we can do a Teutonic order presentation, I already have everything I need for that order, hopefully Nathan and Ed can make it that year, they both have Teutonic kits in order. I was the only Teutonic knight at DoK 2.0 so I mostly hung around the Templar encampment and around Joe Metz's tent due to me doing both eras. Considering it looks like you're doing 13th century teutonic that makes me, Nate, You and Ed all doing the same order similar eras. More than enough to make a group, plus the other crusaders at DoK might want to join as well.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-04, 05:40:49
I'd really like to attend a DoK event; it looks like a lot of fun. Only problem is that my maille is entirely aluminum, and as I understand it that's a big no-no. I understand why, but it still kind of sucks since I have practically everything else right down to the braies. I wonder if I could get away with just a soft kit and maybe bring down some helms just for display or something. Does anybody do that, or do you need a full armor kit, too?
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Ian on 2013-11-04, 10:54:11
Doug, there are plenty of people at DoK who do portrayals that don't include any armor at all. Hard kit is not a requirement. While you're right that aluminum maille is a no-no, you could still very well display everything else and be just fine.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-11-04, 15:22:15
As Sir Ian said, armor isn't a requirement. The first one (last year), I'd say about 2/3 or 3/4 of the people there were not in armor, and half were not even portraying knights. It's called "Days of Knights" but the actual theme is more of "medieval people's lives" - which isn't nearly as catchy a phrase.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-04, 15:38:22
Okay, good. :) I've never done anything like that before and wasn't really sure.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-11-04, 18:37:12
Okay, good. :) I've never done anything like that before and wasn't really sure.

The good news also is that while they encourage everyone to be as accurate as possible, I didn't really see anyone give anyone else a hard time for their "cheats".
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-04, 18:56:50
Okay, good. :) I've never done anything like that before and wasn't really sure.

The good news also is that while they encourage everyone to be as accurate as possible, I didn't really see anyone give anyone else a hard time for their "cheats".

Yeah, I try to be as accurate as possible, but as I've only really been seriously into the accuracy aspect for a little over a year, I'm constantly learning new things and my kit is always changing. I know some of those guys down there have been doing this stuff for years and are so accurate they look like they just walked out of a time portal.

I think if I manage to go, a soft kit for my first visit would be fine. At least I'll be able to see how the event all works while still being able to participate. I like participating. ;D
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-11-05, 20:46:43
We had some info on another thread about DoK, but the main thing is don't try to pass something off as accurate that isn't (like butted mail). And don't show up with dragon wings unless it's heraldic. :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Ian on 2013-11-05, 23:39:44
Living History standards can be a very fine line to walk.  In the ideal world we would all have 100% accuracy in our kits.  This is of course virtually impossible.  So, instead we strive to be as close to 100% accurate as we can.  If accuracy is not your goal, then the truth of the matter is that Living History is just not for you.  The fine line comes in when we try to decide where said line should be drawn.

The reasons that people can't reach 100% accuracy can range from financial reasons, to a lack of information on a given time period, to poor research, to just plain laziness etc.  But at the end of the day, we just can't reach 100%.  I think the most important thing is that you have the desire to continually improve your kit and not intentionally misrepresent historical knowledge.  At the same time, a reputable living history event can't allow someone in a blatantly inaccurate kit to participate as part of a historical timeline, even if that person is 100% well-intentioned and may not have been able to afford the good stuff.  You also need to be able to take criticism.  If someone tells you your buttons aren't accurate for 1475 Burgundy, and they really aren't, you have to remember, the goal is to be as accurate as possible, so taking that criticism without being personally offended is something that people need to become comfortable with.

So what do we do?  Do we let people in with aluminum maille for the sake of not being exclusionary?  Or do we say sorry, if you have aluminum maille you can't participate.  It's almost always a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation.  On one hand you're getting good people who are well-intentioned, and on the other, you're degrading the quality of the event. 

What I've tried to do is meet the standards as close as I'm able in what I plan to display, and then as time goes on and I acquire more stuff, I can expand my impression.  For instance, I'm now trying to focus on my encampment so that I can display an open tent with historically accurate furniture etc... I wasn't quite there this year, so I kept my tent closed during public hours.  Start off with what you can, and people will be more than happy to help you along the way.  Then as you build on your impression, slowly expand at the pace you're comfortable with.  It's the continual improvement that drives us!  :) 
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-06, 00:36:04
Don't get my wrong, I fully understand the purpose of living history, how "stringent" it can be, and why it is thus. That's why I think my best bet for a first time visit would be just a simple soft kit. That way I can sort of get a taste of living history before buying the pie, so to speak, while still being able to pull off something reasonably accurate.

Like I said, I do like accuracy and finding out how to better improve my various gear, but I'm still very much at the early learning stages. I often learn new things daily, so what I "know" changes just as fast. But I would like to give it a shot to see if I like it. I might not. Or I might decide I'm not ready yet and just wait a few years until my knowledge increases a bit more. Won't know unless I try, I suppose. :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Ian on 2013-11-06, 02:24:32
Don't get my wrong, I fully understand the purpose of living history, how "stringent" it can be, and why it is thus. That's why I think my best bet for a first time visit would be just a simple soft kit. That way I can sort of get a taste of living history before buying the pie, so to speak, while still being able to pull off something reasonably accurate.

Like I said, I do like accuracy and finding out how to better improve my various gear, but I'm still very much at the early learning stages. I often learn new things daily, so what I "know" changes just as fast. But I would like to give it a shot to see if I like it. I might not. Or I might decide I'm not ready yet and just wait a few years until my knowledge increases a bit more. Won't know unless I try, I suppose. :)

I hope you didn't read what I wrote as anything directed specifically at you.  In fact, I think you're very much on the right path.  Your decision to aim for a very accurate soft kit and build from there is absolutely a great idea, and what I was trying to convey when I was talking about slowly expanding an impression.  You're going about things the right way.  I would encourage you to really consider going to Days of Knights next year.  For many of us it was our first foray into real Living History and it was like nothing I've ever experienced before.

I think you'll find if you choose to become a Living History participant that it's an incredibly fun and rewarding experience.  I really found my niche in the LH world, and I think you may find that you really enjoy it as well.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-06, 03:14:48

I hope you didn't read what I wrote as anything directed specifically at you.  In fact, I think you're very much on the right path.  Your decision to aim for a very accurate soft kit and build from there is absolutely a great idea, and what I was trying to convey when I was talking about slowly expanding an impression.  You're going about things the right way.  I would encourage you to really consider going to Days of Knights next year.  For many of us it was our first foray into real Living History and it was like nothing I've ever experienced before.

I think you'll find if you choose to become a Living History participant that it's an incredibly fun and rewarding experience.  I really found my niche in the LH world, and I think you may find that you really enjoy it as well.

Oh no, not at all. No offense taken. :) I just know that can be a topic of some confusion; some people don't understand the distinction between Living History and, say Renaissance Festivals. I do, but I also freely admit that I'm not as knowledgeable as a a lot of Living Historians yet. But yeah, if can get everything I need together by then, I'm seriously considering going. Plus, if they're moving it back to the Frankfort area, that's a good bit closer to me than it was this past year.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Martyn on 2013-11-07, 22:32:45
Good discussion here.   First, well done, Dougla!

Ian - while I fully understand the importance of accuracy/portrayal display in LH, personally I lean toward inclusiveness if the ultimate goal of said undertaking is not to only carry on tradition and tradecraft, but also to teach and interest those outside our "niche" - especially the next generation  :D  BTW, where do you participate in LH?  It's an area I'd like to learn more about.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Ian on 2013-11-08, 00:28:19
Good discussion here.   First, well done, Dougla!

Ian - while I fully understand the importance of accuracy/portrayal display in LH, personally I lean toward inclusiveness if the ultimate goal of said undertaking is not to only carry on tradition and tradecraft, but also to teach and interest those outside our "niche" - especially the next generation  :D  BTW, where do you participate in LH?  It's an area I'd like to learn more about.

I started a new thread here so we don't take this thread too far of course :) :
http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,2834.0.html (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,2834.0.html)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Don Jorge on 2013-11-11, 19:43:38
I really like that helm...if you don't mind me asking, where did you get it? I really love Great Helms and the shaping of it...
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-11, 21:49:59
I really like that helm...if you don't mind me asking, where did you get it? I really love Great Helms and the shaping of it...

I made that one. It's styled after the Bolzano helm because I liked the Bolzano's somewhat "wide" look. The upper half is a bit tall, but for a prototype, I'm pleased with it.


Got the attachments worked out for the horns. I managed to get them fitted to the helm a tiny bit tighter than is shown here, but there are still a few small gaps in places. Nothing too bad, but I think I nice mantle would fix that. ;) Now I just have to figure out how I want to paint them. Decisions, decision. Probably would have been done a whole lot sooner if I didn't spend so much time trying to make up my mind. :P
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1392082_646305458724301_1469935695_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-11-11, 22:09:30
wow.

now how does it feel on the head? heavy? does it make your head roll to one side or the other? etc?
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Don Jorge on 2013-11-11, 22:47:38
You made it? I didn't know you were a smith! Do you take commissions because that looks a lot like what I want...even with the taller top...I am 6'5 and 375 lbs so it might be slimming to have a longer head :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-12, 00:22:56
wow.

now how does it feel on the head? heavy? does it make your head roll to one side or the other? etc?

Surprisingly, no. It's pine so it really doesn't add that much weight. I think as long as the cap plate of the helm isn't balancing directly on the top of your head (which it shouldn't be if it has a liner and fits properly) it's pretty stable. I tried it on with just my arming cap and a mail coif before I put the liner in and it snugged up enough that it didn't wobble or anything.

I definitely wouldn't recommend wearing it indoors, though. :P Since you can't see them, you can't judge how far they are from, say, door frames or expensive, fragile valuables. Strong winds may also cause some problems, but for "average" use, it seems all right.

You made it? I didn't know you were a smith! Do you take commissions because that looks a lot like what I want...even with the taller top...I am 6'5 and 375 lbs so it might be slimming to have a longer head :)

Well, I wouldn't call myself a smith yet. I've really only just started. ;) But yes, if you're interested send me a PM, let me know what you had in mind, and we can discuss it. It would probably be best to have whatever you plan on wearing underneath it so I could custom size it to your specifications, but if you have any questions or whatever, let me know.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-14, 01:40:46
My indecision has forced me against a brick wall, as it so often does. I really have no idea what colors/design I want to make this crest. So, I did a little bit of [very lazy] photo-shopping and came up with the attached image. Figured I'd do a bit of crowd-sourcing before settling on a design...assuming you guys don't mind me using you as my personal guinea pigs. :P
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Ian on 2013-11-14, 02:15:58
From a purely aesthetic point of view, I'm drawn to the middle designs with the alternative black/gold or black/white.  I think I favor the black/gold (design E) because it's just a little more striking.  I'm not basing this on any historical knowledge, but just what catches my eye, so take that for what it's worth.

With the gold accented Teutonic cross on a surcoat, that would look very intimidating :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-11-14, 14:15:50

Photoshop is a wonderful tool for this sort of thing. :)

I too am really drawn to the middle designs, though I think "A" looks really good too. What's great is that they all have fantastic contrast against the black horns.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Don Jorge on 2013-11-14, 14:40:51
I think B would look best with your kit...I never got around to messaging you...that GH you made is about exactly what I want :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-11-14, 16:03:10
I'm partial to the black/white alternating (middle top) too. Partially because black/white are teutonic colors. If it was heraldic, I'd go with the black/gold alternating. It looks, to my eye, more like alternating feathers, instead of a "solid" piece.

I did the same kind of grid when I was deciding on my heraldry. :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Ian on 2013-11-14, 17:06:30
Doesn't the later period Teutonic cross include the imperial arms of the HRE and add gold?  That's why I thought the gold could still fit with a Teutonic surcoat.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Gerard de Rodes on 2013-11-14, 17:18:41
What a fantastic helm  :) Really nice job. I think the shape and height of the top portion lend themselves to the wings perfectly.
 I too prefer the Black and gold stripes in the middle.
G.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Edward Jeagal on 2013-11-15, 09:20:24
That's a great looking helm you got there! As for the design, I'm torn between B and E.

But...I think I prefer I B.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-11-15, 15:36:04
Doesn't the later period Teutonic cross include the imperial arms of the HRE and add gold?  That's why I thought the gold could still fit with a Teutonic surcoat.

If we're thinking about the same one, it's a white field, black cross, and gold arms over top of the black cross. Still primarily white w/black, to me. If I were copying that style for the feathers, I'd do the white/black alternating, and add gold edging between the black/white separations. Or maybe a gold edging along the outer "line" of the horn where the feathers connect. Keeping it white/black primary, with gold as an accent.

Paging Sir Nathan! :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Ian on 2013-11-15, 17:08:18
(http://www.imperialteutonicorder.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/teutonicorder.gif)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-15, 18:14:09
Doesn't the later period Teutonic cross include the imperial arms of the HRE and add gold?  That's why I thought the gold could still fit with a Teutonic surcoat.

If we're thinking about the same one, it's a white field, black cross, and gold arms over top of the black cross. Still primarily white w/black, to me. If I were copying that style for the feathers, I'd do the white/black alternating, and add gold edging between the black/white separations. Or maybe a gold edging along the outer "line" of the horn where the feathers connect. Keeping it white/black primary, with gold as an accent.

Paging Sir Nathan! :)

Darn it man! I already had a difficult time deciding on a design and now you're giving me more ideas! ;) I do like the idea of gold accents, though.

I know Tannhauser's crest had black/gold coloring. What I'm not sure about is whether it was heraldic, or associated with the Teutonic Order. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Codex_Manesse_Tannh%C3%A4user.jpg/327px-Codex_Manesse_Tannh%C3%A4user.jpg)
I've seen modern art depicting Teutonics with gold in their crests as well, so I was under the same impression as Sir Ian; it had to do with the cross. Of course, that's modern art so grain-of-salt and all that.


But anyway, as for my crest, it seems that the choice for design is pretty much unanimous. I thank you gentlemen for you feedback. :) What I'll probably do is paint it black/white first to see how that looks since it already has a white base. Plus, I live in the Pittsburgh area....with black and gold I might be mistaken for a "Steelers Knight". ;)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-11-15, 18:29:53

I know Tannhauser's crest had black/gold coloring. What I'm not sure about is whether it was heraldic, or associated with the Teutonic Order. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Codex_Manesse_Tannh%C3%A4user.jpg/327px-Codex_Manesse_Tannh%C3%A4user.jpg)
I've seen modern art depicting Teutonics with gold in their crests as well, so I was under the same impression as Sir Ian; it had to do with the cross. Of course, that's modern art so grain-of-salt and all that.

That's a good question. Sir Nathan might have some input when he sees this. I think I remember reading that the Teutonic order wasn't as strict as say, the Templars, in that they allowed some personal heraldry to be used. This could be Tannhauser's own arms, and what makes me think this may be the case is that the shield is on his page with that exact color division, and I don't think it's been depicted anywhere else with regards to the Teutonic knights.

However, the existence of the gold/black cross certainly opens up many possibilities as well.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-15, 18:41:25

This could be Tannhauser's own arms, and what makes me think this may be the case is that the shield is on his page with that exact color division, and I don't think it's been depicted anywhere else with regards to the Teutonic knights.


That's exactly what I was thinking. It's the shield that throws me off.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-11-15, 23:19:03
Sir Ian, I'm remembering one just like that, except without the gold "stripe" in the cross or the fleur de lis ends.

Agreed on the shield and personal vs teutonic heraldry.

I think the best solution for the helmet dilemma is just do one with the black and white stripes.

Then build another helmet and crest and do it with black and gold stripes.

Then, uhh, build a third helmet, and make a crest for it with black and white stripes and gold trim.

I mean you *could* just make a few crests and only one helmet, but then you've only got one helmet. ;)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Ian on 2013-11-15, 23:27:20
I think the best solution for the helmet dilemma is just do one with the black and white stripes.

Then build another helmet and crest and do it with black and gold stripes.

Then, uhh, build a third helmet, and make a crest for it with black and white stripes and gold trim.

Agreed!
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-11-16, 16:31:09
I mean you *could* just make a few crests and only one helmet, but then you've only got one helmet. ;)

And three helmets will always be better than one! Now we just need to find a way to wear three at once. :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-16, 19:39:30
LOL! Totally not helping, guys. ;)

I mean you *could* just make a few crests and only one helmet, but then you've only got one helmet. ;)

And three helmets will always be better than one! Now we just need to find a way to wear three at once. :)

I've heard medical science has come a long way in extra head transplants. The problem is finding willing donors.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir William on 2013-11-18, 20:22:46
One head like mine is more than enough for the average human; I can't see two heads like mine on one set of shoulders...that's just asking for a lot of trouble.  A LOT.  ;)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-18, 21:54:35
Obligatory Monty Python reference time!  ;D

http://youtu.be/c4SJ0xR2_bQ?t=1m14s (http://youtu.be/c4SJ0xR2_bQ?t=1m14s)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-20, 22:10:46
And here we go. I ended up going with the yellow trim to add just a little bit of color to it.
It matches the colors of my current secular knight kit's charge, too.  ;D

(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1463088_654278714593642_462462196_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Ian on 2013-11-20, 23:14:21
That is spectacular!  The yellow trim really makes it quite striking.  Very nice job!
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Ulrich on 2013-11-21, 00:58:27
Dude that is just plain awesome. I like that helmet a lot.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-11-21, 02:40:36
holy poop. jaw meet floor
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-21, 04:33:01
Many thanks fellows! And thanks to Sir James for suggesting the yellow trim.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Patrick on 2013-11-21, 04:33:40
Wow!!! So how's it feel on?  Does it slow head movement much?
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Brian on 2013-11-21, 09:42:39
Awesome job! Well done indeed! :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: SirNathanQ on 2013-11-21, 12:49:22
That's beautiful, fantastic work! :D
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-11-21, 14:37:04


Fantastic! I look forward to seeing it at the renfaire sometime.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Don Jorge on 2013-11-21, 14:47:55
Sooo pretty :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-11-21, 20:24:37
And here we go. I ended up going with the yellow trim to add just a little bit of color to it.
It matches the colors of my current secular knight kit's charge, too.  ;D

Sweeetttt!!!!

Many thanks fellows! And thanks to Sir James for suggesting the yellow trim.

You're welcome. Also, now that this helmet is done ... see my suggestion regarding multiple helmets and crests. ;)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-11-21, 23:36:24
doooooooooooo ittttttttttttttttttttt

come on guys lets peer pressure him. then he can't back down!
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Douglas on 2013-11-22, 00:09:59
Hate to break it to you, but I've never been overly susceptible to peer pressure. Your mind tricks won't work on me. ;) It was a fun little project, though. I'll certainly make more in the future.

Wow!!! So how's it feel on?  Does it slow head movement much?

Not that I can tell. It seems pretty stable and not overly heavy; you just have to be a little more aware of your immediate surroundings and watch where you swing those things.
 I imagine you'd get some wind resistance if you were on horseback at full gallop, but I have neither a horse nor the skill to ride one, so I don't really have to worry about that. I could always stick my head out a car window and see what happens, I suppose. ;)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-11-22, 12:37:17
Hate to break it to you, but I've never been overly susceptible to peer pressure. Your mind tricks won't work on me. ;) It was a fun little project, though. I'll certainly make more in the future.

challenge accepted lol
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-11-22, 14:34:29
I could always stick my head out a car window and see what happens, I suppose. ;)

I expect to see complete photographic data for this experiment. :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-11-22, 19:52:31
I could always stick my head out a car window and see what happens, I suppose. ;)

I expect to see complete photographic data for this experiment. :)

I'll up the ante to videographic data. :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-11-22, 21:01:10
next you tube viral hit. man looses head while wearing helmet out of car window
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Lord Dane on 2013-11-23, 08:28:49
Simply SWEET!!!  :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-11-24, 17:18:55
next you tube viral hit. man looses head while wearing helmet out of car window

Nah, the whole point of the helmet is to prevent you losing your head ;)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Martyn on 2014-01-23, 19:12:31
Looks great, Douglas.  Nicely done.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Justin on 2015-07-05, 17:37:29
I don't think that helmet wings would work out too well in a battle. They look awesome though!
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Frater de Beaumanoir on 2017-02-27, 12:05:45
Whew! It's been some time since I was here. I'd love to revive this topic for a moment with some research I've been doing on this particular subject. I'm not saying it's "fact", but in the court room of plausibility, it leaves some room open for possibilities. I'll leave the rest to this group's learned judgement.   Dv!
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Frater de Beaumanoir on 2017-02-27, 12:06:53
Sadly my PDF file was too large for an upload, but I found a way to share it here:

http://docdro.id/y7d0IbO


Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Rodney on 2017-02-28, 02:54:21
Sadly my PDF file was too large for an upload, but I found a way to share it here:

http://docdro.id/y7d0IbO

Welcome back!  Are you the author of the piece?  That was a fun evening read!   :)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Sir Patrick on 2017-02-28, 03:58:00
Thanks for sharing and welcome back!  DV
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Frater de Beaumanoir on 2017-02-28, 10:15:40
Thank you, and yes I am. Glad you enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Frater de Beaumanoir on 2017-02-28, 10:17:26
Thanks for sharing and welcome back!  DV

Thanks!  Dv!  ;)
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Naythan on 2017-03-01, 03:46:07
Thanks for sharing and welcome back!  DV

Thanks!  Dv!  ;)
Hi Monsignor!
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Frater de Beaumanoir on 2017-03-01, 10:15:38

Hi Monsignor!

Hello Brother Naythan!
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Lord Dane on 2017-03-04, 23:56:03
Welcome back Cliff :) DV
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Frater de Beaumanoir on 2017-03-06, 10:23:21
Welcome back Cliff :) DV


Thank you.
Title: Re: Teutonic great helm...now with wings?
Post by: Frater de Beaumanoir on 2018-05-23, 23:27:20
This has been a fun challenge putting this new information together. I hope to hear your thoughts on the latest product:

https://docdro.id/TE7tRH1