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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Das Bill on 2008-04-18, 15:27:31
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Well, I guess its time I actually posted pictures of my harness, particularly since Pamela took pictures at practice this past Wednesday.
This piece is going for a mid-15th century gothic style. Underneath the harness is an arming doublet by Revival Clothing, and it is *wonderful*.
The cuirass is a heat treated spring steel piece by John Gruber (who no longer armours due to a shoulder injury). It was a fully custom piece, and fits perfectly. It is also incredibly light. I believe the steel is either 20 or 22 guage, but you can jump up and down on it and it will always spring back into shape.
The mail fauld is a wedge rivetted piece from Historic Enterprises from several years ago, and I believe its from GDFB, though I'm not totally certain.
The helmet is the GDFB celeta. It fits surprisingly well, and looks great. I was incredibly impressed with it for the price.
Pauldrons, arms and gauntlets are Museum Replicas. The arms are decent, though the elbows are pretty ridiculously big. The pauldrons and gauntlets, when they first arrived, were pretty terrible. They had almost no articulation. Thankfully, Peter Fuller contacted me about this, and we worked out a deal for him to do some customization. The man is a miracle worker: The pauldrons are now excellent, and the gauntlets are reasonably functional (though there was only so much he could do short of making a completely new pair). So the entire shoulder-arm-hand pieces look excellent, and thanks to Peter, function decently.
The legs are the GDFB Milanese legs. 14 gauge steel, so a little on the heavy side when compared to historical pieces, but not too bad. The wings at the knees stick out a little too far for some reason, but with some work I think I can bend them into place eventually.
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What I still need:
-Greaves. I've ordered the Revival Martial Arts legs, which come with frontal greaves that I know fit me. I have no idea when those will be in stock, though.
-Neck protection. I'd gotten a bevor to go with my old sallet, but it didn't fit very comfortably under the cuirass, and sat a little dangerously close to my face. I've decided I like the open faced celeta more, anyway, so I've instead ordered a mail standard from Ice Falcon. Again, I have no idea when that will be in stock.
What I need in the long run:
-New shoulders. The MRL pauldrons are slightly large. They fit really well, except when I make certain movements, where the corners poke me in the neck. The mail standard will hopefully negate that (the bevor certainly did), but in the long run I may move to articulated spaulders with besagews. They're more my style.
-New gauntlets. The MRL ones, even after Peter Fuller's work, still don't allow perfect movement. The wrist does not float, so they only articulate forward and backwards. The articulation for the fingers allows me to grip a sword reasonably well, but not as well as I'd like. And if I put the thumb on the flat of a blade, the thumb plate lifts up in a very vulnerable way. For actual fighting, I can cheat and use my Lewis Moore hourglass gauntlets, which are wonderful, but they don't match the time period of the harness, so I don't use them for demos.
-New arms. The MRL arms are okay, but the elbow piece is just gigantic, leaving a huge opening at that joint.
-Mail voiders. At the moment I can live without them, but in the long run I'd like to get a set.
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And here's a shot of the back. The photo isn't great, but there's a lot of really nice fluting that Gruber did on the cuirass, and the fluting on the MRL pauldrons are surpisingly really pretty. There also some really gorgeous piercework on the MRL pieces that you can't see from these photos... I'm amazed at the amount of detail they produced, and yet didn't make them very functional. It goes to show the level of metal working skill that Windlass potentially has, and at the same time how you can't reproduce armour without having an intimate understanding of how it works.
By the way, the mail fauld does cover me all around, but in this photo the points came loose, so that's why it's hanging open.
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Your kit is really looking good! I envy your close-fitting and lightweight cuirass (lol, the spellchecker suggested "jurassic" as a possibility for what I might have meant by "cuirass"). Yes, I guess it's the velociraptor harness... :)
It's really coming together nicely! I'm glad the rust-cleanup on the mail worked too.
Yeah, that MRL stuff is very pretty. At one time I was tempted to snag the whole set from MRL when I had the opportunity to do so very cheaply. The photos make it look gorgeous, but of course, if the functionality just isn't there, it can be more trouble than it's worth.
I know we mentioned this already with regards to Pamela's stuff, but since we all need gaunts, let me know if you're doing an order overseas. I'm still cheating with crappy hourglass gaunts, and need something a lot nicer.
I'd be curious to see what your entire harness weighs. Without the helmet or gauntlets, but including the incomplete fauld I have, mine came in at about 48 pounds, but it's also heavy-gauge SCA gear.
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I know we mentioned this already with regards to Pamela's stuff, but since we all need gaunts, let me know if you're doing an order overseas. I'm still cheating with crappy hourglass gaunts, and need something a lot nicer.
Will do. One of my concerns with this is the tanking US dollar: Places such as BestArmour don't want you to pay until they are able to actually start... I've heard they have a year waiting list. If that's true, I have no idea what the exchange rate will be, but its quite possible that the gauntlets will be more expensive by the time we have to pay. :(
I'd be curious to see what your entire harness weighs.
Now that you mention it, I'm curious too. I remember when Gruber first formed the cuirass, before heat treat, polish, or adding the faulds. He sent it to me just to make sure it fit before he did all of the other things. I had him send the box to VAF, and Deb ended up receiving it. She told me there was a box for me, and when I said it was my armour, she raised an eyebrow and said it felt like an empty cardboard box. She said it was impossible that it was armour.
Sometime I'll have to weigh myself with the armour on and off to see the weight.
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Yeah, I've had a few pieces come that way too... That albion sword box felt empty when my Landgraf came, as well.
What I did to weigh my armor was weight myself without it, then just hoist the armor bag (it's actually a hockey gear bag) up onto my shoulder and weigh myself again. A lot easier than suiting up. :)
The weight of the GDFB legs didn't surprise me, since it's similar to what mine weigh. Actually the revival.us legs struck me as very lightweight, but I'm just used to the beastly stuff I have. :)
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i would like some pics of the legs please :)
great stuff man great stuff.
i did get an email on the sword forum about the MRL legs, the guy said he loved them and they were super nice and moved etc like they should.
Best Armour will not do your greaves without custom fitting. a guy in our group had to fly over there twice for a first round fitting and then a follow up. :(
Drew from MD can do your greaves for you. he quoted me 290 or something for 4 piece welded greaves. he said u couldnt tell form teh outside they were made that way.
voiders, check out ice falcon, mine should be here in april/may date is what they said.
arms: i would email will from age of armour and get the full arms with spaulders. i believe spaulders are more of a foot soldiers armour anyways ;)
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My camera has been recovered, so I'll definatley try to get you some pictures soon.
Best Armour will not do your greaves without custom fitting. a guy in our group had to fly over there twice for a first round fitting and then a follow up. :(
Drew from MD can do your greaves for you. he quoted me 290 or something for 4 piece welded greaves. he said u couldnt tell form teh outside they were made that way.
Oh, yeah, I would definately be going with Drew, not Best Armour. Drew quoted me $500 for forged greaves, which right now I can't afford (looking into buying my own place). I never asked about the welded greaves, though... that price sounds promising...
Since I've already paid for the Revival Martial Arts legs, though, I'll probably stick with the frontal greaves for a while.
voiders, check out ice falcon, mine should be here in april/may date is what they said.
Yep, that's who I'm planning on going with when the time comes. That's where my standard is coming from.
arms: i would email will from age of armour and get the full arms with spaulders. i believe spaulders are more of a foot soldiers armour anyways ;)
I was definately tempted when you first posted them! At the moment I can't afford it, though, but it certainly looks worth it.
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i would like some pics of the legs please :)
Done. I e-mailed you some pics.
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sweet thanks bill. if the fan was more historical i might jump on them. but they are more like a spade and less like a clover if that makes any sense. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Medieval%20European%20Armour/Milanese_armour_terms.jpg (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Medieval%20European%20Armour/Milanese_armour_terms.jpg) they are close though.
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Oh, I know exactly what you mean. Quite honestly, I'm on the fence as to whether they are really worth the full retail price.
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i am looking at a picture of a pair of Mac legs right now. there is just a little bit of difference in the fan. its mainly a fluting/raising area where the center of the fan goes back inwards towards the back of the knee area. I am wondering if I can fix this if I too get a pair.... hmmmmmmmmm
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I need to save my money right now, but I'm incredibly tempted to buy these:
(http://www.englyshe-plate-armourie.co.uk/images/ArmourForSale/GERMAN%)
http://www.englyshe-plate-armourie.co.uk/images/ArmourForSale/German%20Gauntlets.htm
475 euros.
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Those look really nice... *drool* :)
Are you sure on the price? That looks like pounds to me. Ouch.
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Now those are sexy! The brass fingernails are an especially cool touch! ;D
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Are you sure on the price? That looks like pounds to me. Ouch.
Whoops, I hadn't paid attention. That means that instead of $734 USD, they are $937 USD. Meaning I'm further removed from actually making the purchase (but not further removed from dreaming of making the purchase). I particularly like the finger buckler/rondel on the left hand... that might actually be my favorite part. You don't see too many modern armourers do that. I'm not sure of any surviving examples of period hand bucklers, but it is definately seen in period iconography.
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So it's been a few years since I talked about my harness, but all this talk of armoured combat in the other thread got me to browsing back to this thread. My harness has not seen major updates since then, but there are a few (some of which I'm still waiting on).
First off, I still use the same celeta, but I've also picked up one of these from Armour and Castings:
(http://armourandcastings.com/images/uploads/helmets/armet/a1450sx_5.jpg)
http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=56
I needed a closed face helm for bouting, as I was previously cheating and using my fencing mask (which seemed sad, considering the rest of my harness was so pretty). It doesn't completely match my harness, but it's in the ballpark. It also has a somewhat modernish look to it, but it isn't too shabby. Functionally, it's fantastic. I still use the celeta for teaching, as I can see, breath and hear better with it on, but the armet will be for actual armoured fencing.
Second, these are in the mail from Czech Republic via BestArmour:
(http://www.bestarmour.com/gauntlets/gauntlets_25a.jpg)
http://www.bestarmour.com/gauntlets_6.html
I received word that they were sent a little over a month ago, but you never know how long shipping is going to take from foreign countries, so I'm just waiting around. These were made with hardened spring steel, so they should be nice and light.
I've changed from a black arming cotte to a red one, but it is still by Revival Clothing, which is the same maker as the previous one.
I now use the MRL legs:
(http://www.museumreplicas.com/images/PRODUCT/medium/28.jpg)
http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-28-german-gothic-leg-armor.aspx
Like all of MRL's gothic armour, these turned out to be more pretty than functional. Whoever was saying that these are pretty good is either a liar or has never worn real armour before, because these were pretty bad out of the box, despite being beautiful. Allan at Merc Tailor did some of his magic to them and turned them into functional armour again, though they still weigh a ton (nothing Allan could have done about that).
I've also comissioned some spring steel pauldrons from a guy named Josh Davis, who is an up and coming armorer. He is one of the employees at Arms and Armor, and his work is really, really good. He said he's ready to start them, and just needs my measurements, so it shouldn't take to long at this point. They should look somewhat similar to the attached photo. I'm pretty psyched about these.
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That's looking really good! It'll be nice when the gauntlets arrive finally. I'm looking forward to seeing those.
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I'm glad my question prompted you to post in this thread as I would have never found it otherwise. What an outstanding kit you have! 8)
I'm envious of you commissioning a piece from Josh Davis. His is a rapidly rising star in our little corner of the expensive hobby universe.
(edited to add)
Here's a thread that contains links to some of Josh's stunning work: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21184 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21184)
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I'm glad my question prompted you to post in this thread as I would have never found it otherwise. What an outstanding kit you have! 8)
Thank you! It's taken many years, and still isn't where I want it yet, but I'm pretty happy with it!
I'm envious of you commissioning a piece from Josh Davis. His is a rapidly rising star in our little corner of the expensive hobby universe.
Yeah, my friend Theresa has a 14th century harness commissioned by him and I got to see it up close. He has a tremendous talent for being able to get the subtle shapes right. A lot of armourers are good at metal work, but not all of them have the eye for shaping that Josh clearly has.
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I'm kind of glad that I've not gotten to the 'full plate mode' like you guys have...some of what I've seen is breathtaking, and the prices- jawdropping.
Bill, your harness looks good on ya.
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Drew from MD can do your greaves for you. he quoted me 290 or something for 4 piece welded greaves. he said u couldnt tell form teh outside they were made that way.
Is Drew in MD from "Parts and Technical"?
Like all of MRL's gothic armour, these turned out to be more pretty than functional. Whoever was saying that these are pretty good is either a liar or has never worn real armour before, because these were pretty bad out of the box, despite being beautiful. Allan at Merc Tailor did some of his magic to them and turned them into functional armour again, though they still weigh a ton (nothing Allan could have done about that).
I have that same set of legs. The upper articulation is very decorative, and that's about it. They "move" enough to be functional, but they are definitely far from historically articulated. The nice part is that if they aren't fit very well, you can remove a lame or two from the upper articulation to get them to feel a bit better. What did Allan do on them to get them more usable? Mine could use that treatment.
I've also comissioned some spring steel pauldrons from a guy named Josh Davis, who is an up and coming armorer. He is one of the employees at Arms and Armor, and his work is really, really good. He said he's ready to start them, and just needs my measurements, so it shouldn't take to long at this point. They should look somewhat similar to the attached photo. I'm pretty psyched about these.
Ah, that pauldron looks like something from Marek? I've oggled over his stuff many, many times. That should compliment your harness quite nicely. :)
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Nice !!
G
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Definitely some BOSS kit going on there, Bill. Yeah, that helm looks like it would breathe quite well....
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Is Drew in MD from "Parts and Technical"?
Yep, that's him!
I have that same set of legs. The upper articulation is very decorative, and that's about it. They "move" enough to be functional, but they are definitely far from historically articulated. The nice part is that if they aren't fit very well, you can remove a lame or two from the upper articulation to get them to feel a bit better. What did Allan do on them to get them more usable? Mine could use that treatment.
You're right: The upper part is practically all decorative. I'm tall enough that thankfully they're on my thigh and not close enough to the hip where they'd need to move, thankfully. The knee joint doesn't bend enough to fight in. I could walk in it, but not take a proper stance because it wasn't designed properly. To quote Allan, "What kind of clusterfuck is this?" I'm not exactly sure what Allan did (he explained it, but I didn't know all the armoring terms, so I just smiled and nodded), but they function just fine now. His price and turn around time was very, very nice. I expected him to charge way more than he did.
The MRL gothic armour was all designed by Peter Fuller, who is a fantastic armorer. The problem is that the designs seem to be copied for mass production by people who probably only looked at pictures and didn't understand the subtleties to how the various parts should fit. Because of that, all of the pieces show an incredible level of aesthetic detail considering the low price, but are otherwise just not functional armour. The gauntlets are the worst offender of this. Peter Fuller actually did some modifications on my gauntlets and pauldrons and managed to take decorative junk and turn them into reasonably functional armour, but he even said that there was only so much he could do without just building brand new ones from scratch. It's really surprising that Windlass Steelcrafts can do such intricate, beautiful pierce work and fluting but can't take the time to do the important parts.
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Is Drew in MD from "Parts and Technical"?
If it is Parts and Technical, I saw when they posted them over on the AA and they looked pretty nice, especially for four piece welded construction.
I'm not exactly sure what Allan did (he explained it, but I didn't know all the armoring terms, so I just smiled and nodded), but they function just fine now.
Essentially the articulation had to be totally reworked. As near as I can tell they just seemingly randomly layed down the articulating holes rather than having them be deliberately located so there was a lack of movement in both directions ( hyper extension and full kneeling ). Each plate was, slot filed so that each rivet had the ability to compress a bit, as well as making the slot somewhat wide to allow for better plate movement and also loose riveting the plates together. I tried each trick individually in hopes that one would do the trick but the hole location is so poor that all three had to be used to get them to move properly. Additionally the method of installing the wrap plate made them nearly useless as depite appearences there was almost no ability to actually " wrap " them for different sized people. The wrap plates had to have the excess material cut away where the lapped inside the cuisse and them be re riveted to thier hinges. As Bill mentioned, it is due purely to his height that the tops of the cuisses worked for him. If he were shorter they would have needed to be reworked as well to how they should have been made to begin with ( slot riveted articulation on the outside of the thigh, two sets of leather compression articulation, one at the middle of the plates and one on the inside of the leg ).
I've also reworked the MRL Gothic B&B plates for one of Christian Toblers guys. This is really not a bad piece after the work is done as the details, much like on the legs are nicely done doing a decent job of conveying the feel of the style. The breats plate is two wide for most folks ( you cannot bring your arms together in front of you ). I had to cut away the large triangular edge rolls ( which really aren't. they're welded on ) and install guessets and do what I had to do to Ed's breast plate, cut away the fixed riveteing of the top and bottom half, slot rivet in the center and turn it into a true two piece breast plate ( the GDFB two piece breast plate I see around alot sufferes from this same problem, its hard riveted together instead of being truely two piece moving so restricts fit based on height got alot of folks ). Christian had already installed articulating leathers on the faulds of the fron and back as when he was tweeking the curvature for fit, they got to a point where they slide past each other, so this probably isn't a bad idea to do to this set in general.
Bill had the MRL gothic gauntlest at one point. As I recall he contacted Pete about them ( they of course don't work right ) and after having alook I think Pete concluded that the main problem was that windlass had simply opted to leave one of the plates of his original design out so there was no way to make them work right at all without that plate. Bill probably remembers better then me as he had the actualy exchange, I just recall reading his post about in on myarmoury.