ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Ancelyn on 2010-05-29, 23:14:19
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I had a great time at the faire today, meeting everyone, playing with pikes, listening to a medievel hippie singer, but even the lowly pirates still outshone me. So it is time to get a kit together. The time period I am shooting for is a few decades either side of 1400.
First, I'm not buying arm and leg armor or sabotons just yet, maybee later. I am thinking about a breastplate and a hounskull helm.
Second, can I skip the doublet for now or is it essential to hold up hose or braies? And really, with joined hose who would see the braies anyway? I could wear fish patterned boxers and nobody would even know. :-D
Third, does anyone have a strong opinon on the historical value of wearing a haubergeon over gambeson if I will be wearing a breastplacte anyway?
Mail Coif, essential or optional? Either way I will need to pad the inside of the helmet or risk acting like a bell clapper.
Did I forget anything?
Thanks,
Adam
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Wow, lots of questions and that is a good thing. I would suggest that you begin doing research into the type of armor you are considering first. The period you are shooting for has a variety of armors still being used, which is an advantage, and depending on the area you wish to portray yourself as coming from you may have alot of options. To answer a few of you questions, what you wear under your armor depends mostly on how historically accurate you wish to be and also comfort. I portray a person with a more "middle class" background and I try to be as historically accurate as I can. Thus I wear a period appropriate shirt and gambeson under my armor. I do not wear a doublet, even though in the period I am portraying currently (Elizabethan, later 1500's) the arming doublet was in common usage. The reason is, I originated in the midlands of England and learned my trade serving the Border Rievers. They are well know to be somewhat backward in the armor employed, at least by their common soldiers. Plus, in an age where heavy armor was on the decline, I continue to wear a Brigandine which was a style on the way out. I also generally wear a kettle helm, another kind of throwback piece of armor, with a mail coif and padding. If you wish to wear mail, in my opinion an arming cap is essential. My general advise is to talk to those of us in armor at the faires you attend in person and bounce ideas off us, it is much easer to work things out in person. Also, if you saw Norm at VaRF, people like him are imense sources of knowledge, use them. While you are putting together your kit, don't be in a rush to look cool. Take your time and buy quality stuff that fits you right physically and personae wise. Also, don't get so caught up in the armor that you forget the little things, like period correct pants and footwear. To me, nothing looks worse than seeing a guy wearing beautiful plate armor with jeans and sneakers. I hope this is helpful to you and good luck. Be aware that once you begin, it never stops. I'm currently hard at work finishing up my "light" kit, padded armor with a gorget for a 16th century musketeer personae. I'm also already in the early planning stages for the heavy padded armor I intend to make in the off season for next year.
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Funny you should mention the Border Reivers laddie, Clan Elliott was one of the worst of the lot; in short we did what Robert The Bruce had in mind. ;D
As I mentioned, I am holding back on most armor for now. But a helmet and breastplade don't seem unreasonable. Yes, I still need to do more research. As for my locality, I have left that vague for now to allow me time to look around. Indeed, why choose a locality outside of Great Britain anyway. Lots of people must have been evasive about their origins for a plethora of reasons.
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Here are a couple of hounskull helmets on eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140345320658&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
The dummy in the second item has a very believable mustache.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180496510817&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
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Funny you should mention the Border Reivers laddie, Clan Elliott was one of the worst of the lot; in short we did what Robert The Bruce had in mind. ;D
As I mentioned, I am holding back on most armor for now. But a helmet and breastplade don't seem unreasonable. Yes, I still need to do more research. As for my locality, I have left that vague for now to allow me time to look around. Indeed, why choose a locality outside of Great Britain anyway. Lots of people must have been evasive about their origins for a plethora of reasons.
You got that right! btw, I don't know if you realized it or not but Sir Andrew is a decendant of Clan Elliott. ;)
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You betcher skippie!!!! The Elliotts, Scotts, and Armstrongs were constantly raiding over the border for loot, livestock, and women. Not to mention a horse or two! VARF has come and gone for another year and it was an excellent time as always! Our own Sir Edward had the opportunity to give some instruction to a young man, much to the relief of his mother, Sir Brian tried his hand at axe throwing, and I managed to get a pretty good archery lesson and bout in. Of course, the real star was Ed's new scabbard and afterwards on Sat, he let Sir Brian and I heft his Albion. I couldn't swing it, all I could do was drool! ;D
Many thanks to all who came out and Sir Blackwolf, I hope the plans my lady gave you serve you well.I am glad I got to meet Lady Alexa and Lord Keith, Jake and his lady, whose name just now escapes me. And a heartedly well-met to you, Casey! Cheers everybody! :D
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if you want to do it right, don't buy anything. research first ;)
u say a few decades before or after 1400, but let me tell you that is a WORLD of HUGE difference in armour, clothing, fashion and social. get down the dates to about 10 years or so. area (England, France, German) makes a huge difference on the same too!
i wouldn't buy either of those helmets. one they are way over priced and 2 they don't really look like the real thing ;)
as to doublet. well before mid 1400s there were no "doublets." chausis and later hose were held up by the brais and then later "they think" by the pourpoint during fighting.
some good books for you to look into are the Osprey Publishing: Men at Arms or Elite or Warrior series. lots of different types focusing on short tidbits here and there, and cheap enough that if you don't really like that "look" you can get another book. another great book is 1381 The Peel Affinity. written and photographed by a local living history group. shows a great variety of armour and clothing for the 14thc.
here's just a few of my Osprey at easy reach of the computer, there are 100s of these books.
Osprey Publishing
Men -at-Arms:
Medieval European Armies, The Swiss at War, The Armies of Crecy & Poitiers, Italian Medieval Armies, German Medieval Armies, French Medieval Armies, Scandinavian Baltic Crusaders, Medieval Polish Armies
Elite:
Knights at Tourneyments
Warrior:
English Medieval Knights, Knight Hospitaller, Knight of Outremer, Italian Militiamen
for the correct way to do it, yes a hauberk needs to be worn over a aketon/gambeson in the 14thc but just for faires it maybe a tad hot heheh. again to the coif, research, the helmet you may choose might not call for a mail coif but a mail aventail attached to the helm itself
now don't get me wrong I love a great kit. whether its done historically, fantasy or just down right looks cool I just don't want you to buy something and then be ah man i could have spent this and got this instead cheaper or gotten this and looked better or more to what I want. :) hehehe let us help you out here. find a great picture of what you aspire to be and we all here will do our best to help you look the most kick ass you can
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Thanks Sir. Wolf!
This is the kind of information I can use, especially about the helmets. I'll be back when I have more questions. :-D
Thanks,
Adam
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oh i'm good about helmets, i have 23 or so of them ;)
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Okay, you said you are great with helmets. I am looking at hounskulls and sugarloaf great helms right now and have some questions.
Should the hounskull have attachment points on the outside of the neck for the aventail? Is there a prefered number? Should they be large or small? If missing from the helmet can these be added or should I go with a different maker?
Guage of steel; is 18 preferable to 16? I am leaning towards 18 for the sake of weight.
How much clearance is good, under 1" on a side?
Here are my latest items for coveting:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200523209729&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT This one is being sold by several sellers for a wide variety of prices. Bolts for the aventail are not in evidence.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180496510817&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT This one illustrates the concept of "Oh my, did you attach bolts to your neck?"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310261118351&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT I like this sugarloaf, but am not wedded to this one. For the price it seems reasonable at least as a decoration.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310260485757&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT Perhaps this one could be for an evil prersona, or an evil room. :-)
I haven't bought anything as of yet, still browsing.
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although this one isn't too bad: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB1400&name=European+Pig+Faced+Helmet
this one looks more historical: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0423&name=Houndskull+Bascinet+Helmet
the aventail attached to the outside of the helmet. the lil "bolts" are called vervelles. they pass thru the leather that is on the top edge of the aventail and a wire is run thru them from one side to the other and then knotted off.
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Thanks Sir Wolf. I note that Kult of Athena is also a better price compared to other sources (read ebay).
Haven't researched aventails yet, but that is on the to do list.
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These are very reasonably priced, the link is courtesy of our good Conall ;)
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1298.html
There ya go, that should work with it as it's made by GDFB as well.
However be warned that they are backordered but are due to be available for shipping this month. :-\
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Well, one month is probably alright for a delay. I want to get my kit together early next year.
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also depends on what size head you got too hehe
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Very big head gentlemen. Very big.
Just ordered the Kult off Athena Houndskull helmet. I'll send some photos when it arrives.
Trouble is, now I kind of want to get a sugarloaf one too. It would expand my time period significantly.
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muhahahah now we have you muhahahaha
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And so it begins...be warned, Sir Ancelyn, the journey you have just undertaken has no known destination. Oh we all THOUGHT there was an end in sight but for my part- I can no longer see it. It is a sickness, according to some...one that we all happily indulge in!
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Hello Sir Ancelyn and welcome to Armorholics Anonymous! :D
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yes, as a card carrying member i have to say that the group grows and gets worse. there is no known cure. trust me, even when the wife says no more it gets worse
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AND we're NOT anonymous, are we? lol
Unless we hide behind our greathelms, thereby giving us criminal stirrings! lol
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I'm the Red Knight, and I'm an armouraholic.
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welcome red knight... now stop drooling and pass the raising hammer to the next person please ;)
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I used to think I could quit any time, but then I was stopping to do a little dishing on the way to work, and then that turned into a little raising during my break. Pretty soon I had hammers stashed all over the house. When the one I had hidden in the toilet tank rusted and stained the bowl, my wife made me seek help. ;)
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I don't know if there's a room in my house right now that doesn't have any armor in it at the moment, not counting the bathrooms... Master bedroom? Check. Guest room? Check. Living room? Check. Dining room? Check. OK, maybe not the laundry room or kitchen. :)
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No armour in the bathroom, Sir Edward? This might help.
http://gothridgemanor.blogspot.com/2010/10/rocking-your-bathroom-medevial-style.html (http://gothridgemanor.blogspot.com/2010/10/rocking-your-bathroom-medevial-style.html)
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i was gonna post the exact thing
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i was gonna post the exact thing
Great minds think alike.
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Now that's awesome. Somehow I don't think I'd convince my lady of its awesomeness though. :)
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Yea, my milady's decreed that all armor was to be deposited, stored, displayed and anything else armor-related in the war chambers and that's that. So I have it laid all about, in a shambles at times if I want it to look like I rushed off to battle and have just returned and its all over the place. Sometimes I like to arrange it...until my armor stand is complete in which case I'll have that in the corner to scare unsuspecting commoners.
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Now that I have 1 of my 2 helmets (the other is backordered) I am looking into mail. Fun fun fun!
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ok which ones did you get/getting. that will determine your mail.
now these are the longer sleeved ones:
Chain Mail Hauberk - Wedge Riveted - Flattened ring - Mild Steel 48'' Chest - AB2482
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2482&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+-+Wedge+Riveted+-+Flattened+ring+-+Mild+Steel+48%27%27+Chest
Chain Mail Hauberk - Wedge Riveted-Solid Ring - Flattened ring - Mild Steel 48'' Chest - AB2484
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2484&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+-+Wedge+Riveted-Solid+Ring+-+Flattened+ring+-+Mild+Steel+48%27%27+Chest
Chain Mail Hauberk - Dome Riveted - Mild Steel 48'' Chest - AB2490
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2490&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+-+Dome+Riveted+-+Mild+Steel+48%27%27+Chest
Chain Mail Hauberk - Dome Riveted - Flattened ring - Mild Steel 48'' Chest - AB2486
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2486&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+-+Dome+Riveted+-+Flattened+ring+-+Mild+Steel+48%27%27+Chest
6mm chainmail hauberk (med) not sure what size a medium fits but they have 2 more larger sizes
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/6mm-chainmail-hauberk-med-ff8081811878813e01188b4a24f221ad-p.html
Medium Chainmail Hauberk not sure what size a medium fits but they have 2 more larger sizes
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/medium-chainmail-hauberk-ff8081811ba39277011cf67673e52581-p.html
Flat Ring Riveted Chainmail Armor Full Sleeve Shirt (can ask for un galvanized version)
https://ssl.perfora.net/www.finditarmory.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=154cca21426f372/shopdata/0040_Armor/0240_Chainmail/product_details.shopscript?article=0120_Flat%2BRing%2BRiveted%2BChainmail%2BArmor%2BFull%2BSleeve%2BShirt%2B%3D28CMFF16%3D29
Hauberk, wedge-riveted mail, 9mm diameter
http://historicenterprises.com/hauberk-wedgeriveted-mail-9mm-diameter-p-686.html?cPath=101_141
short to 3/4 length sleeves
Chain Mail Haubergeon - Dome Riveted - Mild Steel 48'' Chest - AB2468
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2468&name=Chain+Mail+Haubergeon+-+Dome+Riveted+-++Mild+Steel+48%27%27+Chest
Chain Mail Haubergeon - Dome Riveted - Flattened ring - Mild Steel 48'' Chest - AB2464
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2464&name=Chain+Mail+Haubergeon+-+Dome+Riveted+-+Flattened+ring+-+Mild+Steel+48%27%27+Chest
Chain Mail Haubergeon - Wedge Riveted - Flattened ring - Mild Steel 48'' Chest - AB2460
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2460&name=Chain+Mail+Haubergeon+-+Wedge+Riveted+-+Flattened+ring+-+Mild+Steel+48%27%27+Chest
Chain Mail Haubergeon - Wedge Riveted-Solid Ring - Flattened ring - Mild Steel 48'' Chest - AB2462
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2462&name=Chain+Mail+Haubergeon+-+Wedge+Riveted-Solid+Ring+-+Flattened+ring+-+Mild+Steel+48%27%27+Chest
Chain Mail Hauberk - Dome Riveted - Flattened ring - Mild Steel 48'' Chest - AB2486
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2486&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+-+Dome+Riveted+-+Flattened+ring+-+Mild+Steel+48%27%27+Chest
6mm chainmail haubergeon (medium) not sure what size a medium fits but they have 2 more larger sizes
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/6mm-chainmail-haubergeon-medium-ff80818118787cbb01188b3d40ce7ad4-p.html
MS Medium Haubergeonnot sure what size a medium fits but they have 2 more larger sizes
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/ms-medium-haubergeon-ff8081811ba399ad011c14368f9a7d36-p.html
6mm Flat riveted Large Haubergeon not sure what size a medium fits but they have 2 more larger sizes
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/6mm-flat-riveted-large-haubergeon-ff8081811fad17a8011fb421bda6066c-p.html
Riveted Chainmail Armor Half Sleeve Shirt (can ask for un galvanized version)
https://ssl.perfora.net/www.finditarmory.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=154cca21426f372/shopdata/0040_Armor/0240_Chainmail/product_details.shopscript?article=0070_Riveted%2BChainmail%2BArmor%2BHalf%2BSleeve%2BShirt%2B%3D28CMRH%3D29
Flat Ring Riveted Chainmail Armor Half Sleeve Shirt (can ask for un galvanized version)
https://ssl.perfora.net/www.finditarmory.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=154cca21426f372/shopdata/0040_Armor/0240_Chainmail/product_details.shopscript?article=0110_Flat%2BRing%2BRiveted%2BChainmail%2BArmor%2BHalf%2BSleeve%2BShirt%2B%3D28CMFH16%3D29
Haubergeon, wedge-riveted maille, 9mm
http://historicenterprises.com/haubergeon-wedgeriveted-maille-9mm-p-685.html?cPath=101_141
tons and tons to choose form now a days. now if you need larger sizes each place has them i think. personally for 13/14/15th century's I like the flat wedge riveted that alternates with solid rings. and seconded the all flat wedge riveted. the rest are ok but those two versions are my favorite.
now as to coifs, aventails and chausis, let me know and I'll get you a list as well
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Whooo boy, Sir Ancelyn, you're about to have some FUN.
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Sir Wolf,
One helm is the Kult of Athena Hounskull helm (AB1400 B) which is still on backorder. Ironically the same item is for sale on ebay for only 20 or 30 dollars more.
The other is an 18 guage Sugarloaf helm from RedSky Trader on ebay. Fits very close (no room for glasses in helmets eh), but I could spin it around my head if I wanted to. I will have to add padding, and get this oily stuff off of it. I posted some pictures on facebook.
So untill the hounskull comes in I am not buying an aventail. So I am looking at mail coifs, hauberks, and will try my hand at making an arming cap . . . and the shirt, pourpoint, hosen, . . . you get the idea. Not too hot about mail chauses after reading Sir Edward's account of his experience with them.
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When enough projects are done I will post pictures. Untill then you'll just have to wait. :-)
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Not too hot about mail chauses after reading Sir Edward's account of his experience with them.
Yeah, to do them right, it's expensive, and time consuming to put them on, and they're never 100% comfortable. But they look and work great, and you don't see many people doing them. So it's a trade-off.