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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Robert on 2009-12-15, 22:35:03
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In todays age we are all on a budget, and in my off-season, which is way too long, I become an armorer and build a set or three of plate armor. But as crazy as that may be I don't make chain mail as its far too time consuming. However I hope to share here how to buy or make your kit on budget.
First my chain was far to heavy- steel is nice looking but hard to wear all day, and unless your in combat its overkill. So I went to aluminum chain, at about 20% of the weight is quite a savings.
But its very pricey- looking around I found a 3/4 sleeve shirt for $100. So I bought two- one for a friend and mine. This worked quite well BUT the aluminum links are soft and I hat lots of tearing issues- my friend had fewer but for two reasons- he is a bit lighter build, and we found that may platemat was biding on some of the links. This was butted chain.
I since bought riveted aluminum chain, another pricey think- selling most places over $500 a shirt, but I got mine for $180, and its very nice, 3/4 sleeve.
So if your in the market- try www.thinkgeek.com for great prices on the chainmail, gauntlets, and coifs.
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I was taken a little aback when I first heard that ThinkGeek was selling chain. Glad to hear that it's decent stuff. Most of the stuff I see online is more for show, and aluminum would certainly qualify as that. When it comes to longer-term pieces, I've acutally found that some folks in the SCA have some nice kits. When the time comes to change personæ, they tend to sell their stuff cheap. Check out http://www.armorarchive.com.
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Kits are going to be a function of what your purpose is more than anything. If your into SCA combat, well plastics and padding are far better than chainmail and finest plate, but I would agree they lack in looks.
I have harness made out of 12 gauge 5086 Aluminum, cold hardened, short of a sledge hammer you can't dent it, and its light. But it still can transfer the force of some blows, where plastics deaden the force. I however don't use it in combat, but rather wear it as garb with chain mail and padding. I have made three of these sets, one heavilly etched, one painted, and one anodized. So it really depens on use -so I agree with Sir James here. I would say that there is no combat worthy aluminum chain (unless you can get a 2000 or 7000 series alloy- good luck), but if light you want and money is not an issue- there are very fine stainless steel offerings and a some titanium as well.
If your lot going to use it in active combat though- aluminum is quite nice, and I will share some techniques and pictures on design, forging, anodizing, and etching to create great pieces- combat ready or for show it up to you.
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Good Sirs,
Indeed form must follow function. As both my Ladywife Dame Dagrny and I perform with live steel, all of our harness is real steel. My plate harness totals some 80lbs in weight while her chainmaile plus helm, shield and weapons is easily over 50lbs. We both tend to spend entire days at the Faires and Events we conduct in harness. One of the more rewarding and enjoyable things we do is march in parades. The ability to do this comes from physical conditioning; we train in what we fight. In fact part of the demonstration is where I perform pushups, jumping jacks and run about the audience, which of course is just great fun to watch their faces!
As to where we obtain our arms, we cheat of course! We sell what we use and we are fortunate to be dealers for several excellent sources. These may be found at http://www.medievalfantasiesco.com/armour.htm and http://www.medievalfantasiesco.com/Arms.htm
For images of the House of Blackwolf in action pray see http://www.medievalfantasiesco.com/Livinghistoryexhibit.htm
I am at your service,
Sir Blackwolf
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Actually I've been pretty pleased with what I've seen from ThinkGeek. It's the most cost effective way to get started with a renfaire garb kit. Obviously aluminum is not functional as armor and is not historical, but it actually looks decent and is inexpensive.
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Thanks Sir Edward, I agree as well and am not trying to distract from anyone in any kit. Steel is traditional, stainless looks good with less work, but is also not period, but many use it and it’s very nice. So for anyone who has a kit- no offense intended noble Sirs and Dames.
Here is an interesting fact though- Armor was made by royal decree by members of an Armorer Guild, in fact each piece is tamped with the “seal” of the actual maker. Now as part of the forging process, Armorers always sought to make armor thinner (to reduce weight) but yet more resistant to ballistics and armor piercing weapons (war hammers). To do this they would create intricate angled surfaces to deflect blows and add fluting for rigidity. Ok we all know that, but they were also trying to create spring steel through the addition of other metals into the liquid iron and carbon, creating the first alloys.
They also realized that the forging process- the actual hammering of the metal would create a “skin” where the metal would be more dense than the inner material, this would lead to what is know known as case hardening (today we dip metals into powders such as Barium Carbonate to produce this). If you removed this surface layer, the underlying metal would not be as hard or resistant to blows. It also resulted in a metal “sandwich” where both outer sides of the metal would be harder than the internal material- this would result in “spring” as if the material was hardened all the way through- essentially the harder it is the more brittle, it would certainly resist “pointed” impacts but a concussive blow would shatter the metal- usually at the rivet or connection points.
So it was so that Armorers developed this technique over time- including baking forged components in ovens while covered in charcoal powder (an early equal to Barium Carbonate) to produce tougher armor.
Thanks for the history lesson- now what’s the point? Well Sir Walter Raleigh was actually jailed once for wearing armor to court, why? It was a polished breastplate. It happens that in order to maintain this spring steel process, a closely guarded guild secret only taught to journeymen before they became Master Armorers, you could not sand off the resulting finish to make it shiny. In fact any armor that was shiny was a tell-tail sign that it was not made by a Armorer, as it was against their guild practice and illegal. What? Yes, during the medieval period, guilds were supported by nobility and churches, many lesser nobles would send their children into guilds to become masters. They also paid huge taxes to the crown, and as such had many laws that protected them.
This all worked out for Sir Walter Raleigh, as a queens favorite. The point is that Armor made by armorers was not polished- it was a dull grey (the carbonizing also protected from rust, or even black (Black Prince), or painted with various materials. The resemblance of this was very close to….aluminum, but of course it was not, it was an early spring steel.
So, shiny armor was either very early armor made by armores maybe between 1000 and 1250, or it was made by blacksmiths (or in the case of royalty, finished by silver smiths). Most museums that gained pieces, weather in an effort to preserve them or represent the myth of a “Knight in Shining Armor” polished pieces. The making of armor spanned several guilds, and some ceremonial armor was “polished” but usually as a result of adornment through etching, gold gilding, or other artistic hands usually from silver smiths, or gold smiths commissioned by the crown. It was also more common once firearms became a prevalent battle weapon as plate armor was mostly ceremonial or a mark of command.
So actually polished armor was actually illegal and not at all what combat armor would have looked like- but it may have been seen on nobility as high Gothic armor (like the Queen’s) or possibly in ceremonies and events like a Joust.
So the looks of aluminum- although not combat functional (well maybe if warn under plate maile) does actually look more period (but new), blackened chain such as I have seen good Sir Brian wear is actually even more period. No offense to anyone in brilliant polished kits- they are the very ideal people have of Knights- but there are many misconceptions around Knighthood that people hold as truth- and that’s ok with me, each person is more than entitled to their beliefs.
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Hi Stormdelver,
Do you know where this information came from? Some of it sounds a little suspect to me, particularly given the wide range of time period and regions in which armor was worn. Now, I will point out that I know a lot more about arms than I do about armor, but there are some things that don't ring quite right in what you're saying to me.
Here is an interesting fact though- Armor was made by royal decree by members of an Armorer Guild, in fact each piece is tamped with the “seal” of the actual maker.
I don't believe that's completely true across the board, particularly when we see many of the black sallets of the 15th century worn by mercenaries. It was certainly true in many cases, but I think there are a lot of exceptions.
Now as part of the forging process, Armorers always sought to make armor thinner (to reduce weight) but yet more resistant to ballistics and armor piercing weapons (war hammers). To do this they would create intricate angled surfaces to deflect blows and add fluting for rigidity. Ok we all know that, but they were also trying to create spring steel through the addition of other metals into the liquid iron and carbon, creating the first alloys.
Yes and no. The Germans were certainly looking to try to make spring hardened steel for armor by the late 15th century, but before that they didn't. Spring hardened armor was non-existent in the 14th century (even though they had the technology, as they were doing it for weapons, so they clearly had a reason for choosing to do it this way) And the Italians seemed to favor unhardened armor despite the Germans. I believe the English also tended to prefer unhardened, but I'm not totally sure. So, again, it depended on the context.
They also realized that the forging process- the actual hammering of the metal would create a “skin” where the metal would be more dense than the inner material, this would lead to what is know known as case hardening (today we dip metals into powders such as Barium Carbonate to produce this). If you removed this surface layer, the underlying metal would not be as hard or resistant to blows. It also resulted in a metal “sandwich” where both outer sides of the metal would be harder than the internal material- this would result in “spring” as if the material was hardened all the way through- essentially the harder it is the more brittle, it would certainly resist “pointed” impacts but a concussive blow would shatter the metal- usually at the rivet or connection points.
Again, I don't think this was true all the way across the board. It would depend a great deal on region and time period as to whether case hardening was preferred... many did not use this method.
Thanks for the history lesson- now what’s the point? Well Sir Walter Raleigh was actually jailed once for wearing armor to court, why? It was a polished breastplate. It happens that in order to maintain this spring steel process, a closely guarded guild secret only taught to journeymen before they became Master Armorers, you could not sand off the resulting finish to make it shiny. In fact any armor that was shiny was a tell-tail sign that it was not made by a Armorer, as it was against their guild practice and illegal. What? Yes, during the medieval period, guilds were supported by nobility and churches, many lesser nobles would send their children into guilds to become masters. They also paid huge taxes to the crown, and as such had many laws that protected them.
I'm unaware of this tail, though I'm not writing it off, either. There were a number of ordinances put on armor throughout time. For example, in the 15th century there were areas where selling a painted helmet (a style very popular throughout much of Europe in the 15th c.) was highly illegal because it could hide an armorer's flaws. However, I do suspect there's more to this story than simply he was arrested for polishing his harness. By the 16th century, highly polished armors were very prized, so there has to be more to this than that.
The point is that Armor made by armorers was not polished- it was a dull grey (the carbonizing also protected from rust, or even black (Black Prince), or painted with various materials. The resemblance of this was very close to….aluminum, but of course it was not, it was an early spring steel.
There are too many quotes from period literature about the brightness and shininess of armor for me to believe that this was common. I'm not necessarily disputing that it was never the case, just that the 15th century clearly had examples where it was encouraged to shine the armour to its brightest.
So, shiny armor was either very early armor made by armores maybe between 1000 and 1250,
Well, unless if you're talking about helmets, plate wasn't worn during this time. But what you say about museums is true: Some pieces have been pver polished by over-zealous curators, unfortunately. Not in every case, but certainly in some.
or possibly in ceremonies and events like a Joust.
Hmmm. That doesn't seem right. Jousting armor was typically the same as field armour with additional pieces added to it (such as a heavier duty helmet). If the armor wasn't allowed to be polished outside of the joust, then it wouldn't make sense that it was allowed during the joust.
blackened chain such as I have seen good Sir Brian wear is actually even more period.
Actually, black mail is very much a modern concept. Mail will naturally "polish" itself when one does a lot of movement in it (running, climbing, marching, fighting, etc), and the black will just disappear. Since most of us in modern times don't use our mail as athletically as our forefathers did, our mail will likely stay black (and for that matter, requires more work to clean when it rusts).
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If I may weigh in for a minute on this most interesting topic, I conducted a bit of research while assembling my Elizabethan soldier kit. Most of the information I found seems to support both of you in the coloration of the armor. Now most of my research was geared toward armor worn by common soldiers, not knights, so it is possible that can alter things a bit. I found that most armor was stored in vats of oil, in some cases olive or other vegetable oil was used (most commonly in Italy and the mediteranean region where this was common), but mostly oil that had bubbled to the surface was collected and used. This oil was mixed with dirt, making a mud and it seems an early oil based paint. Over time the armor would take on the color of the oil it was stored in. This seems to be most common with chain armor, and yes when it was taken out to be used the armor was wiped down, removing most of the color, but not all and also leaving the armor dull, not shiny. The main problem with shiny armor, as I can personally attest, is that the steel tends to begin to corrode very quickly because the protective oil has been removed. My mild steel kettle helm will actully begin to show corroded fingerprints by the end of a faire day if I leave it totally wiped clean and handle it without gloves. It seems that by the introduction of true plate armors in the 1400's, the armor was being protected by painting the metal, most plate armor in this period was made specifically for a certain person. After it was forged and at various points during forging the buyer would often inspect the work to make sure it was up to their standards. Rember armor is a huge investment and your life may literally someday depend upon the craftsman's work. To this end, before completion of the sale, they armor was inspected while still unpainted. As I stated before though, unfinished steel tends to corrode and rust very quickly, so it was certainly oiled. After meeting the buyers approval, it would have been painted. Now Plate breast and back that would have been made one size fits most for the common soldier was not so rigorously inspected and the manufacturing process, especially by they 1500's was more like factory output. Quantity mattered more than quality. Individual soldiers would be responsible for it's care and although it was often painted in the color of the lord or country the soldiers served, it still needed to be oiled. Last, although there certainly was an armorer's guild, I have little information on it. I do know that in England, most armor made for the common soldier in the 1400 and 1500's came from the Royaly Armorers. By the late 1500's heavy steel armor was being hightly discouraged for common soldiers throughout Europe, Plate breast and back for Pike being about the only heavey armor left, and even that was starting to fade away as most of it was too inferior to stop a musket ball at moderate range. Most armorers, as most master craftsmen, had a seal they put on their armor, this was to serve as an advertisement and a copyright as each individual had subtle unique differences to their armor. By no means does this mean that everyone who made armor was a guild member. Only masters at their crafts were admited into guilds and their skills made them highly sought out and expensive, poor people made due with whoever they could afford to buy from. Also, although they may have been able to make simple metal armor, blacksmiths are not armorers and the intracacies of making plate armor would have been beyond them, at least without alot of time and material to experiment with. Most blacksmiths would not have had this luxury, they would have been busy tending to horses and making or fixing tools and other more commonly needed items like door hinges, etc. I did uncover referenced to polished armor, but mostly this seemed to indicate armor that was meant for show or ceremonial use, not combat. It also seemed to me that this armor was polished up for that purpose but not stored polished. Every reference to this though was for a person of very high standing who would have had retainers to do this sort of work for them, not something that even most knights could claim by the 16th century.
I'm not sure how much this helps, but if anyone is interested, I could try to dig out the references I was scouring through when I was doing my armor research. It has been about 3 years so I don't know if I have all the information or not, but I could try to look for it.
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I've found that the general rule of thumb when discussion anything pertaining to history is that time and place matters greatly. A difference of a few miles or a few years can make a significant impact on the "truths" that we read about. There are very few blanket statements that can be made about the medieval period as a whole, except for the most general of concepts, such as "they wore helmets made of metal" :)
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such as "they wore helmets made of metal" :)
The funny part is that even that wasn't always true! :)
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Thanks for the replies- I think we found a topic of interest. The information comes from several sources, including a renown museum armor reproduction smith in Canada that I am trying to find again, as well as a course I had in engineering on metallurgy. But I should retract and not a few things- this is not a definitive guide, and as Da Bill notes- correctly, armor varied significantly by region and laws, who made it and why did as well. Also its is very true that techniques, laws, practices, and availability varied significantly within what we would consider a local region- but as most populations did not travel far as it was difficult and dangerous, things were far more isolated and evolved far differently. Just think of all the variations of what we think of as English within England itself.
I am really referring to the 14-15th century, England and not at all completely- that would take books, and I am not an expert, but I do consider myself an apprentice armorer, now with a few full sets of plate armor completed for clients. I have done a lot of research, but all sources are not really complete are they? As to references of a knight in shining armor- while I am certain that shining armor did exist, and discounting fashion trends, was written about in reality and as an ideal- outside reflecting the virtue of the inside- a common literary theme of the age, that and damnation. So as I said, everyone is more than entitled to what they believe as its likely as accurate as anyone else.
So the forging process, it is known that with many metals- steel, iron, bronze, and aluminum, that mechanical working of the metal does increase its hardness. By forging on carbon powder or exposure to charcoal, this also adds the ability to bend without deforming or breaking. This was inadvertently discovered across many cultures when forging blades- most notably the Japanese, and in the making of Damascus steel- something encountered during the crusades.
Was all arms and armor made this way- absolutely not. It was time-consuming and expensive, availability of raw materials alone would have prevented this, keep in mind that England was a bit deforested just due to timber being the primary building and heating source- with peat second, and stone and mud following for construction. However, armor was made this way- including the baking in charcoal and in the seeking of ballistic resistant armor (hence why plate was developed in the first place). Combat armor does differ significantly from jousting armor- many sources site this in many countries. It was generally thicker, may have had removable plates for added protection, usually was a bit more “rigid” and was designed primarily for mounted combat. While some may have also doubled as combat armor, a knight given the funds would have surly had “tournament” armor, but again enough examples exist to give either view the ring of truth.
Since I was primarily interested in the metallurgy used, techniques, and methods, I was focusing on what would have been available vs. modern equivalents. I had said that I was not trying to detract from what other know and believe but rather provide additional information to those looking to build a kit and not to discount anything as strictly un-period looking. Chances are almost anything was “period”, even plastics used in the proper design- while materially very far from period- would be close to armor made from bone or horn, or perhaps boiled leather plates. Point is if it existed then, someone would have used it somewhere to make armor in some way.
Also many mercenaries were opportunistic, as were lower knights or man-at-arms, they would scavenge, buy, and acquire weapons anywhere the opportunity arose, some using “ancient” armor as they happened to acquire it, mixed perhaps with leather, studded, chain, or fine gothic pieces. Indeed as uniforms were not provided in general, an army was a motley thing. Uniforms gained prominence as a way of identifying friend from foe, where professional soldiers were employed (no money invested, who cares), but there were few standing professional armies during these times that were in anything resembling a standard uniform, that died with the Romans and was just starting to be developed in fortification guards or royal guards.
So I do apologies as I don’t mean to sound authoritative across such a wide breath of time and regions- .
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Ok, what I would like to focus on is making a kit- I leave of what to the user.
I would start with researching armor, if thats what you intend on making or wearing, different periods and regions. Find what appeals to you and what kind of character you would want to represent. Are you more of mercenary, a viking, or a knight? What region do you like- armor differs significantly, and by the way- the Japanese were wearing armor betwwen 1300-1550 as well. Do you like the crusades, or later periods?
The time and place you select with help you start defining your armor. I love German, Gothic Armor, but still lack the skills to hammer it out- someday...So be realistic with yourself and push but don't expect blinding sucess. Armor making is 99% sweat equity, with skill you can do wonders but it takes lots of hammering to build skills.
I highly reccomend reserach, reading, and examining armor in detail. Tools will be highly importaint but differ from person to person. Most blacksmiths make their own tools based on need and how they like to work. You can find patterns in many places, they are a good way to start, but keep in mind that they were not made for you and they may require techniques and tools you don't have yet. (Like a mig welder) You can forge a very nice and reasonable set of plate mail from basic tools, its all very possible if you work at it.
There are many references for tools online, the most essential are unsplit sections of trees, prefeeribly oak or other hardwoods. You will need to "dish" these into shapes to help you sink your forms, also steel balls or sphears are great to have for some items as well. A good rule of thumb- don't select or make dishes or balls the same size as you want your finished item- the item will almost amways be about 1/3 larger, at least thats how it seems to be for me. So if your going to make elbow cops, make sure you use a dish and ball a bit smaller than you want the finished size- this is not a science, you'll find out what works and not through experience and the only un-doable thing you can do is when cutting the material out, you can reshape, resize, and fix almost anything other than that.
Measure 10x, cut once. You will need to visualize the curves and attachement points of your form as you go to tweak it along.
Don't use a big hammer- most common mistake, as many looking for speed pick up a hammer thats too heavy- this is a marathon event not a sprint. Also dings from a heavy hammer are much harder to get out during plenishing.
Grind your hammer convex- remove sharp edges, dings and flat surfaces, any imperfections in the hammer will get telegraphed to your work- I sand my hammers with 200 grit paper or better (400 on finishing hammers)
Plastic hammers are wonderful- they don't mar and work very well- but only on cold metal. I have several of these and many rubber mallets for initial shaping around forms.
Metal is really interesting material, it flows, it bends, it shrinks and it expands, it always amazes me how I go from glat stock (16g) to elbow cops or helmets.
Don't use too light a guage- I have never used below 16g, and actually like 14g and 12g better. Its far more work, but it seems to flow better for me. 18g may be used for some things but in general I would stay away from lighter guages- they arn't combat legal (SCA) anyway.
More later- (Chime in anyone)
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Hi Stormdelver,
No need to apologize! We're just having a friendly discussion!
Just think of all the variations of what we think of as English within England itself.
That's very true. The same is true with time period... just ten years of difference within a period can show a large amount of change in fashion, politics, etc, just as it does in modern times.
This was inadvertently discovered across many cultures when forging blades- most notably the Japanese, and in the making of Damascus steel- something encountered during the crusades.
Curiously enough, the Europeans were doing this hundreds of years before the Japanese, yet the Japanese always get the limelight. :) But here's a not-too-well known fact: A large number of European swords from the early medieval era up untl the high middle ages were often left fairly soft, or in some cases unhardened entirely. Dr. Lee Jones owns a 11th c. sword that shows no evidence of any heat treatment, and yet we know for a fact that they knew how. Their kitchen utensils were hardened, their farm tools, hammers, chisels, etc, were all hardened. Certain types of tools were spring hardened... and yet, only some swords were made this way. Clearly this was done on purpose, though we can only guess at this purpose at the moment (such as perhaps the desire for a blade that would bend rather than break).
Combat armor does differ significantly from jousting armor- many sources site this in many countries. It was generally thicker, may have had removable plates for added protection, usually was a bit more “rigid” and was designed primarily for mounted combat. While some may have also doubled as combat armor, a knight given the funds would have surly had “tournament” armor, but again enough examples exist to give either view the ring of truth.
Sometimes this was true and sometimes it wasn't. For example, the armor of the first Earl of Pembroke, who was on of the most powerful men in 16th c. England and therefore not poor, had armor that doubled for different roles. His armour had interchangible pieces depnding on whether he was jousting, fighting as a demi-lancer, equipped for light cavalry, etc. His burgonet had a separate face piece for jousting, but it was removable if he was leading on the field.
So I do apologies as I don’t mean to sound authoritative across such a wide breath of time and regions- .
Again, nothing to apologize for! If there was nothing to discuss, we wouldn't be here!
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Don't use too light a guage- I have never used below 16g, and actually like 14g and 12g better. Its far more work, but it seems to flow better for me. 18g may be used for some things but in general I would stay away from lighter guages- they arn't combat legal (SCA) anyway.
Just to add to this:
Decide what you want the armor for. If you want it primarily for wear at the fairre or for costume, I'd go with the lightest gauge you can get away with (understanding that too thin is hard to shape properly). If you want it for historical demos, I'd try not to go too heavy, because most historical armors are much lighter than modern armors (due to the fact that they would forge certain areas to be thicker and other areas of the same sheet of metal to be thinner, so you could maximize your strength and minimize your weight... since modern armor tends to be made from sheets of standard thickness, most moderrn armors are not made in the same way). If you want to practice historical European martial arts, you will want certain things to be heavier (e.g. the helmet), but other areas aren't so necessary (e.g. the legs) because you aren't intentionally aiming for the armor in most cases, therefore the armor doesn't need to be too thick. If you are doing combat sport such as SCA, then you want to go with your organizations recommendations.
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Sir Das Bill,
From a practical view you are quite correct in saying that maile that is oft used does tend to polish itself. For both my Ladywife and I do use our armour a great deal and as such we are out in both the hot sun and pouring rain, however we have little issue with rusting as what with she donning and doffing and moving about it tends to knock the rust off for the most part. Mine is painted black and needs be repainted about every other month or so from April to October, but again rust is not a great issue. The item that rusts the most is my coif as I have it attached to my arming cap. The resulting sweat and moisture contained within it causes the coif to rust rapidly and of course it must be aired out and repainted on a regular basis. During the winter months our harness stays on the rack for the most part, except for those days the weather suits to get out and practice out of doors.
Thank you all for this interesting discourse, tis good to see the depth of knowledge and experience herein and I have enjoyed it immensely.
I am at your service,
Sir Blackwolf
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Ahhh, so right! I agree with the gauge difference depending on arming site. I personally like leg armor to be lighter- 16 gauge at most. 18 and 20 are workable but I find them less forgiving, they warp easy and spring rather than form, but thats a factor of your equipment and manufacturing method- they press and roll very nice.
I agree that there are examples of multi-function armor- any rule in this is only about 50% accurate at best. In fact I love this type of armor and if it had been me, I would have went for this type of design. The why is simple- of the sets od armor I have I have one favorite- not due to its looks really, more due to its comfort, its well suited to combat at 12G, and I spent rather longer tailoring it and decorating it with etching. That being said I think that at least some knights floowed that rule- and some had several harnesses. Given that many of us are Rennie's, we all likly have a closet of garb- I still have but trwo favorites, my favorite armor and a Cavalier garb.
I would reccemend varied thicknesses in SCA combat as well, the legs while the front may be good at 16g or 18g, the back is good at 18g or maybe lighter or alternate materials
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Chain Maile and rust- I agree- chain is a bit "self polishing" but we really are not stricly talking about rust and paint but rather the blackening of metal that occurs during the rusting process, this is the chemical oxidation that results in the oxides that are removed by the friction and blackening can also occure during the forging process of carbonzation. Its surface and worn enough would wear off or can be cleaned off, plate mail would show this more readilly as it lacks the friction chain maile has.
I have tried a few methods of makeing blackened mail, paint is not a permanent solution as you know, I dis this once and had black "soot" all over me at the end of a day. I have tried chemical blueing- this works a bit better, and anodizing, again a bit better and in colors if one wants, but the metal-on metal is tough so I came to the conclusion to "live with it" and left it at that. Commercailly they do have nicely blackened, anodized maile, it looks good but is usually beyond what I care to invest.
Thanks all- this is turning out to be a great thread- your feedback is great! :)
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Sir Blackwolf
Love the tabards you have on your site, we will have to talk as I will be looking for a banner and tabard this season.
I hope to post some pictures of my work here and in-process shots as well to maybe help show some tools and techniques I use in making armor, its more a matter of getting them off the camera than anything, but I'll start showing examples of components, finished works, and the etching/guilding I do.
My latest work is a articulated gorget, the front is etched with the white tree of gondor and "knight of the order of the light" is elvish script below, it came out rather nicly so I hope to show that soon- made in 16g, cold rivited.
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I would agree that this has been a very interesting topic. I would also like to add that another problem with this type of discussion is that the information in the source material itself can be contradictory. It's amazing how many times I looked at books or websites run by reenactors or historical researchers and discovered different "facts". Then when I would look at the primary source material they were citing, I often found that both were correct, depending on time, territory, etc. that you discussing. Sometimes older volumes contained entirely incorrect information for many reasons, inaccurate interpretation by the original researcher, poor interpretation of text from another language or even ignorance to the subject matter by the author! While it seems amazing, I have seen it. It is for this reason, I always attempt to backtrack information to primary sources and investigate it myself. All in all, I have found this most interesting. As Stormdelver has pointed out, mercenaries were opportunistic, acquiring pieces by happenstance and most assuredly, my Elizabethan kit demonstrates that very well.
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I have also learned not to trust pictures or meseums. I have went to a few museum's and looked at their collections of armor and suprisingly found suits assembled incorrectly. I have never been sure if this was because they thought that is how it was worn or if it was a mistake- but as assembled it would not have been servicable, maybe it was the limits of the mount it was held on. But it does go to show that you have to be careful.
In armor I wourk primarilly from one reference -Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction: The 14th Century, althogh I make my own patterns and will borrow from any period or completly make them from my imagination- not dissimular to how actual armorers worked. There are also parts that I choose not to make at all and rather source them- again not uncommon even back in the 14th century.
The story of that was for archer knees, I forged out a pair of gothic cops, they still hang im my workshop in fact, then the lames. I got very frustrated in this as I could not get the movement and clearences to work properly, with a shy of 1/8" draft between the pieces I could only get a 30% to maybe 40% deflection- ok for stolling but not good for say, sitting, kneeling or so forth where near 90 is needed. So I chucked them across the workshop in frustration. After cooling down I thought about it and ordered a set from another smith. When I got them- they were very nice and combat weight- I laughed. Not only was he using very loose "floating rivets" but his draf was nearly 3/4"- no wonder I was only getting 30%.
Lesson: I was way to hard on myself, I am an engineer and accustom to working with tight tolerences and machined parts, so like a mechanic I look at everything as it should fit just right, not slop about. Funny thing is (and before we get back into this again yes I know this is an observation not any rule), slop was actually part of the designs- it allowed armor to move quickly with the body.
I was so keen on the specifications of high gothic armor- which is very tight and works of art in many senses of the word, that I just jumped into it. The designs I was replication were made by masters, with decades of experience, specific tools, forms and assistance we just don't have, so if your forging something out remember, in many ways armor making and black smithing are nearly lost arts and your ressurecting that trade, likly from reading books not from learning from a master (which I would love to do). Don't be to hard on yourself.
So I mentioned tools and forms, stragely Armoring will require you to make many of your own tools, to be sure you can buy tools but they may not be quite right. I started with a selection of ball-pein hammers, as many autobody hammers as I could find, pieces of flat steel stock, some angle iron, a few stumps, and my nice set of wood chisles.
Why chisles and gouges if you can find them? Well you will need to carve out a few dishes, and you will need to almost continually make forms that serve as moulds for more complex parts. I catually made a backplate mould to help get the spine fitting and shoulderblade cups, it works great (ok it smokes a bit when you drop hot plate onto it) but it makes creating the complex curves much quicker.
As a side note, an commercial armorer made a pair of greeves that were heavilly fluted (a process I love but very time consuming on an anvil) he pressed these out with a large press and a form, my guess would be a 50T+ press, but the results are breathtaking. Fuctionally I would feel bad for an SCA opponent with these- the fluts make the armor very rigid, and since the primary weapon material is cane- the raised ribs of the flutes in this case are rather sharp and would cause some weapon damage if struck hard. Beautiful work though. I estimate that to hand forge them out would take maybe 100 or so hours without a proper form. This could be ton with a lighter press if the material is heated- the form would be betst to be milled from steel though. This would be fairlt small for our practical shop- a top "setter" the "male" point that would sink the material and a bottom "cup" the "female" side that you press into- both dully v shaped- maybe stock being 1"wx2"dx2"h, this would require many, many pressing cycles but could be used for many things, the less deep the form, the more it could be used on curved parts so for me, I may look at making one around 1"wx3/4"dx3"h...pondering this now.
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The information comes from several sources, including a renown museum armor reproduction smith in Canada that I am trying to find again
Are you trying to come up with Pete Fuller ?
I am really referring to the 14-15th century, England and not at all completely-
However, armor was made this way- including the baking in charcoal
What Bill said, heat treating armour seems to have been an advent of the second half of the 15th century and took time to diseminate around Europe to become common in the 16th. The Italians neven really took to it prefering slack quenching to full hardening to reduce the risk of warping or cracking, while the Germans seemed to have accelled at it. Dr Alan Williams " The Royal Armoury at Greenwich 151-1649 A History of its Technology " shed some interetsing light on the practice in Germany ( i'd recommend you pick up a copy if you can find it )and England. There seems to be little documentation of armouring in England beyond the London company before Greenwich was esablished but heat treatment of armour was seemingly unknown there prior to the 1550's when via German masters of the Greenwich armoury the process was introduced. The heavy handed guild over sight requiring speicalization in single pieces and stamping by makers of single pieces was a practice of the Germans who required that you become a master in single pieces at a time, thus if you wanted to make gauntlets you had submit exmaples of gauntlet work and if passed you were made a master in gaubtlets alone, you had to submit more work for other pieces to become further certified as a master of other pieces. I would also recommend picking up a copy of Alan Williams " The Knight and the Blast Furnace " pretty much the handbook of armour heat treatment during the period.
The Royal Armoury at Greenwich http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/094809222X/ref=sr_1_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261234418&sr=1-1&condition=new
There don't seem to be any copies of The Knight and the Blast Furnace avaliable right now but heres the listing http://www.amazon.com/Knight-Blast-Furnace-History-Metallurgy/dp/9004124985/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261234476&sr=1-1
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The baking in charcoal or coke is indeed heat treatment, while case hardening is simular but more limited- could be, there was an artical on *his* site covering metal apperences, surface treatments, why they did not sand or polish, and the reference for where the work Stickler came from (one who used a stick, covered in grease or tallow, rolled in grit as an early sand "paper".
Here is a good metallurgical reference that seems to cover it well:
http://www.oakeshott.org/metal.html
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No I don't believe it was Pete, unless he changed his site over the past year, it doesn't resemble waht I remember anyway....but close. There were forging articals on the site and the person offered classes.
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This is a very interesting topic indeed and points out an interesting facet of Europe at this time. It seems that Germany had a very strong hand in the developement of English armor, weapons and tactics in the 1500's. This is primarly due to the large numbers of German Landsknecht mercenaries that were employed there. King Henry is well known for copying their fashion and dress. It is only natural the the weapons, armor and battlefield tactics employed by Landsknechts would find their way into England. By no means does this mean they were the only influences on English military developement of the time, however. King Henry is well know to have greatly admired the Dutch gunmakers and indeed enticed several to assist him in setting up Royal gunmakers for England as part of his efforts to modernize the English army. By contrast, the influence of Spain can be seen in the developement of the English navy, which began producing ships that were the complete opposite of those used by Spain. Spainish warships were large and unmanueverable, employed as floating batteries for cannon in battle. England developed smaller, more manueverable vessels with fewer guns. Very interesting how other nations influenced the developement of each other.
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There were forging articals on the site and the person offered classes.
That sounds like Randal Graham, when he used to live in Canada but Randal was a blade smith. Its not Rob Valentine, he never offered classes and its not Eric Dube, no classes there either nor is it Francois L'Archeveque . Pete Fuller is the only Canadian armourer i'm aware of with a musuem background ( former currator ).
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Thanks for the names, but they don't sound right either, I think the guy I am talking about is from Ontario.
Anyway onto other things. I am thinking still about that fluting press, I made a prototype but its not stong enough to do what I want yet, wish I lived near a salvage yard...Anyway I think it will work if I can find the right parts, then this will make cold fluting easy. Now the one I did build works well with a forge, and that is ok but not quite want I was looking for.
So while I'm thinking of it, anyone have things that they are fairly good at fabricating? So far breast and backplates seem to be my favorite followed by Spaulders, not as good with cops and helmets, anyone care to share experiences here?
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Well its been some time since my last posting, its been a very busy month or so for me and I wish it were all because of making a new harness or something, but that’s not the case.
So I have been working on repairs and contemplating disassembling my harness for painting or powder coating, I just can’t bring myself to do it yet because as much as I like color I still like the raw metal surface and don’t look forward to masking all the detailed etching work I have done…
I have added new plates to my patroons, and have forged out an articulated gorget that fits into my harness, I made a really nice etched one as well with the Gondor Tree and “Tower Guard of the Kind” etched in Elvish below, unfortunately I’m not sure if I will complete it as a gorget as it is larger than my harness will allow.
I have also just completed the roughing of a great helm, not exactly happy with it yet, but I have yet to finish it with brass accents or its crest so maybe it will get better as I finish it.
I just viewed the pourpoint described by Sir Brian, so now I will contemplate creating one of them as well, it hast to be far more comfortable than suspenders. (Thanks Sir Brian)
So with that all being said, I am contemplating my next project with no great news to share yet, hope all of you are well and in good health.
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Glad to see I am not the only one getting busy with off season projects. I have gathered almost all the material to complete the 16th Century Quilted armor I am going to make. All I need yet is the thread to sew it with. I am hoping to begin work this weekend, providing I can get to my parents house to use mother's sewing machine. The weekend snowstorm prevented that from happening this past weekend. I hope that this does not upset my timetable too much.
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I read about your project along with sir Brian's Pourpoint, I am thinking about making one myself but am thinking mostly about the material- linen or cotton would be most "accurate" but I am thinking about something more like a sport Jersey, you know the fabric with holes in it....its far from accurate but is strong and light as well as would help it breath. I am thinking about August and September mostly, and the padded type would be better in October, and more accurate. I have just completed my 3/4 arms, I actually reused what originally were to be knee cops but actually were sized better for elbows, not fully happy with the lames yet, I think I need to ad a couple more....I may have made them a tad longer as well but I can cut them down if I am going to use a Pourpoint.
I completed my great helm, it looks OK, but it needs the brass accents added still, I have to find some 1/8" soft brass rivets...oh well I have lots of time. I also have to make another for a fellow knight, (its always 2 of everything).
I almost forgot, I also forged out a hand axe, something that Sir Brian had said to me the last day of the PA Faire, he wanted one that looked like one actually used in battle rather than a fantasy design, so simple and purposeful, I also remember a patron dressed as a Monk and carrying a French war-hammer, actually a cavalry war-hammer the as he termed it was a French Can opener, he said this in a fake French accent kind of like the Monty Python castle skit, so I made one with an axe on one side and a armor piercing spike on the other from a museum picture of a hand axe from around 1270.
You know I really have to start posting pictures of all this stuff…I do still need to make the “frog” for the axe so it can be carried and peace tied, but again there is lots of time.
So glad to hear your keeping busy as well, I am looking forward to a spring faire I hope, I believe there may be one in April in Virginia (maybe) I just haven’t looked recently. As a note in that direction, the Wicked Faire is coming up very soon (NJ) but as its at two separate hotels this year I didn’t plan on attending, too bad because it would be nice to see some of you fellows again.