ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: scott2978 on 2014-09-19, 07:03:35
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Anyone know of a place that will do good tailoring of hauberks? I need to get my cap-a-pie hauberk tailored but I'm too lazy to do it myself :)
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I don't see it listed on their site, but Jeff at Custom Chainmail (http://www.customchainmail.com/) might tailor an existing shirt. I never thought to ask since I was buying a whole shirt from him, but it might be worth the email.
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He does not do tailoring on a shirt that you currently own, I asked a week or so back. All of his tailoring is done in India.
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It kinda sucks that there's really no place that makes historically accurate, properly tailored maille. All that stuff from India is not even close to what real maille looks like. I'd settle for something that's even mostly historical.
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You might make inquiries with your local SCA or living history group. They may have someone who does that kind if stuff for them.
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It kinda sucks that there's really no place that makes historically accurate, properly tailored maille. All that stuff from India is not even close to what real maille looks like. I'd settle for something that's even mostly historical.
That's a deep, dark, dangerous road, especially if we start talking about historically correct metals. The rivets on historical mail look almost flush. My suggestion is don't ever handle historical mail, or you'll hate every bit of yours. :)
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It kinda sucks that there's really no place that makes historically accurate, properly tailored maille. All that stuff from India is not even close to what real maille looks like. I'd settle for something that's even mostly historical.
That's a deep, dark, dangerous road, especially if we start talking about historically correct metals. The rivets on historical mail look almost flush. My suggestion is don't ever handle historical mail, or you'll hate every bit of yours. :)
I can vouch for that. I was fortunate enough to get an Erik D Schmid early 14th century coif and I now want the real deal now. I actually sold off all my pin riveted maille to replace it with wedge riveted maille cause the wedge stuff is closer to historical. Still not satisfied to be honest but this is probably the best I am gonna get for now so It will have to do. The place known as allbeststuff does offer tailored maille at cheaper prices too, it's pin riveted but they are round rings with alternating flat punched rings. That type of maille was used in Europe well through the whole time maille was used. You have to email them for the order though but they will do it. Nate Max got his done by them and it fits him well.
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Would people say that, perhaps, welded mail is a closer analogue of historical mail than indian pin-riveted?
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Would people say that, perhaps, welded mail is a closer analogue of historical mail than indian pin-riveted?
I would say the closest you could get with the widely available Indian stuff is their wedge riveted maille. Some of them actually seem to be drifting the rivet hole now instead of just punching out a hole. It also depends on your time period, and location... But there's a lot of problems with the modern mass produced stuff that it can never achieve a close historical approximation without completely starting over. The design needs to be changed at the most fundamental level to reflect historical flattened rings. The rivets need to be set differently. And the cuts of the shirts are completely wrong, they need to be tailored in a totally different way. There are many enthusiasts in Europe and the US who make proper maille, but it's incredibly expensive because of the labor required.
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^ Everything that Sir Ian said!
The way they seem to make their garments is in "squares" - this is most evident from the tube arms. They probably have entry level / basic people doing simple 4 in 1 squares, and then the more experienced workers will take those pre-made squares and assemble them into faulds (by putting a series of squares with some contracting joins every now and then, if you're lucky), or shirts (tube body & tube arms is just building squares, arm pits are the only non-square area and they're primarily just diamond gussets..).
Then, as said, it's the rings. Historical mail, the few that I've handled, isn't round, and isn't flat. It's a "flattened round". Picture taking a round ring, and lightly whacking it to put a flat spot on the top and bottom, but still having rounded sides. Edit for clarity: I'm talking about the solids / washers, as compared to the "whack flat" modern ones"
clickable 16th century example (courtesy of Allen Antiques):
Great example of the "flattened round" profile
(http://www.allenantiques.com/images/M-4-detail-5.jpg)
Pin riveted isn't non-historical, it's just that the final result isn't nearly as flush and doesn't quite look right. Granted there is surely some historical mail that was "sloppy" like this, but if portraying knights and people of financial means, it probably wouldn't be correct. Then there's the whole aspect of modern metals vs historical metals. Proper type of iron, etc. And whether the wire has been drawn properly.
clickable 16th century example (courtesy of Allen Antiques):
Note the way the rivets look, and compare it with modern mail
(http://www.allenantiques.com/images/M-4-detail-4.jpg)
And a truly well-tailored mail garment isn't built from squares. You'll have contractions and tapers (reductions and expansions) where you have 3-in-1 and 5-in-1 to do so. I've seen a few with a "pocket" over the shoulder blades, where it is baggier so that it can move better. And the sleeves aren't at top dead center of the shirt; they're more forward, where your arms naturally hang and move.
In short, exactly as Sir Ian said - it would all have to completely start over.
Now, what we have now, especially with some shops now offering tailored maille, and some offering voiders, partial sleeves, and faulds - we are WORLDS ahead of what it was 15 or 20 years ago when I bought my first tube-sleeved, butted ring haubergeon. And not only that, I paid more for that than you can get a riveted or riveted/solids one for now, which is pretty impressive given the escalating price of most things over the last 15 years. Common plate armor has come a long, long way in that short time too. :)
The standard riveted mail, but tailored, is the most reasonable thing unless you're willing to spend a few thousand dollars on a haubergeon.
If you're willing to spend a little bit on a set of pliers and some loose rings and rivets (maybe $50 worth), you can tailor the mail yourself. It's time consuming, but not specifically "hard". It doesn't require any specialty tools beyond a set of mail pliers, which are just regular pliers with a set of divots for setting the rivets (I'm a poet!). And since it's mail, if you "screw up" it's all fixable; it's just a bunch of rings assembled in a pattern.
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Round riveted indian maille does have a historical analogue
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/63/0e/2e/630e2eda5ca11c99cb132bf8a1fcfe77.jpg)
That looks remarkably similar to it. Though it's still not 100% spot on you can see how they copied it to mass produce it.
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I'm just about to finish tailoring the sleeves on my flat/solid wedge rivieted haubergeon. It is not as difficult as I suspected. Steven Shelton (a fellow DOK FB page member) lives near by and gave me good guindence. I'm stitiching it back together with butted links so I can correct any mistakes I make. Then Steven and I will go back and replaced the butted links with riveted ones later. BTW, Steven was one of the pioneers in having the riveted mail reproduced in India. He was one of the first importers many years ago. We all know the current products need improvement, but they are light years ahead of the shiney butted stuff that is the top seller.
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Round riveted indian maille does have a historical analogue
That looks remarkably similar to it. Though it's still not 100% spot on you can see how they copied it to mass produce it.
Where'd you find the pic? I'm curious on what / where it's from. That doesn't look like what I've seen, but I haven't seen a lot of maille, either. I'm going to guess it's earlier period, at least?
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I found the pic on my armory. It's russian maille from the mid 1800s. Possibly it could use machined wire which is why it looks different.
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=277133&highlight=#277133 (http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=277133&highlight=#277133)
Theres the link to the page with it.
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I found the pic on my armory. It's russian maille from the mid 1800s. Possibly it could use machined wire which is why it looks different.
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=277133&highlight=#277133 (http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=277133&highlight=#277133)
Theres the link to the page with it.
Ah, way on the other side of the spectrum, not relevant for comparison with medieval mail. Still, neat to see it pop up before the last couple decades.
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I'm stitiching it back together with butted links so I can correct any mistakes I make. Then Steven and I will go back and replaced the butted links with riveted ones later.
Hey, that's not a bad idea. I'll have to remember that if I ever delve into riveted mail. I know my mail is a-historical on so many levels, but for the time being I'm loath to give it up just yet.
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I'm stitiching it back together with butted links so I can correct any mistakes I make. Then Steven and I will go back and replaced the butted links with riveted ones later.
Hey, that's not a bad idea. I'll have to remember that if I ever delve into riveted mail. I know my mail is a-historical on so many levels, but for the time being I'm loath to give it up just yet.
I stitched mine back together with zip ties on every 2nd/3rd ring to test fit :)
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Would people say that, perhaps, welded mail is a closer analogue of historical mail than indian pin-riveted?
I would say the closest you could get with the widely available Indian stuff is their wedge riveted maille. Some of them actually seem to be drifting the rivet hole now instead of just punching out a hole. It also depends on your time period, and location... But there's a lot of problems with the modern mass produced stuff that it can never achieve a close historical approximation without completely starting over. The design needs to be changed at the most fundamental level to reflect historical flattened rings. The rivets need to be set differently. And the cuts of the shirts are completely wrong, they need to be tailored in a totally different way. There are many enthusiasts in Europe and the US who make proper maille, but it's incredibly expensive because of the labor required.
Ian could you perhaps list one or more of those enthusiasts that make proper maille if you think they'd be interested in a job?
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Ian could you perhaps list one or more of those enthusiasts that make proper maille if you think they'd be interested in a job?
The only one in the US that immediately comes to mind is Erik D. Schmid. Whether or not he takes commissions anymore I couldn't tell you. I know Mac has done maille tailoring in the past, I'm not sure if he made his own rings or anything like Erik does, nor do I know if he touches maille anymore. Erik has become a bit of pariah in some circles, so I'm not sure how that has affected his maille making. I know that's not very helpful, but it is largely why most everyone resorts to tailoring the Indian stuff now.
You can see one of the European maillers working his craft here at 21:45 in the documentary The Reenactors (English subtitles available via the CC button at the bottom)
https://youtu.be/HuvJxDuv5EU?t=21m45s (https://youtu.be/HuvJxDuv5EU?t=21m45s)
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I've seen this before, and it always makes me jealous...
But this time I just noticed something I never saw before: at 25:25 a woman talking on a cellphone.