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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: scott2978 on 2014-02-21, 05:30:28
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For those of you contemplating hiring an armorer to custom make some plate armor, I have a suggestion that may save you time, money and result in a better fit.
Of course there's nothing better than being there, in the armorer's shop while he fits the armor to you as he works, but for many people that's simply not an option. The best armorers can work from a cast of the limbs for arm and leg armor, but plaster is heavy, messy and fragile.
So here is the solution that worked for me: Fiberglass cast tape. I'm talking about the stuff modern physicians use to make medical limb casts out of. It's simple to use, no mess, very light weight, very strong and keeps it's shape nearly perfectly.
The stuff comes in rolls that are sealed in foil packets. The rolls are available in a variety of widths, and for making an armor casts the tape needs to be no more than two wraps thick, so get the widest rolls you can find. It's supposedly available at medical supply stores, but I was not able to find any in the entire metro Phoenix area medical supply stores. I was able to find one roll at a shop that sells costume making supplies so you could try there too, but as with many things the best place to buy it is online. I use Orthotape.com and buy the stuff by the case.
http://orthotape.com/fiberglass_casting_tape.asp (http://orthotape.com/fiberglass_casting_tape.asp)
There are videos on YouTube that demonstrate how to use it to make a cast, but it's pretty easy. That said, it's not something you want to try by yourself.
You will only need a few things but a couple you might want to buy online:
A bucket with clean, warm water.
A towel covering the floor.
A chair to sit on.
Enough rolls of medical gauze to cover the entire limb area to be casted in one or two layers.
The fiberglass tape.
Good, sharp scissors.
An assistant.
To use the tape, first you need to cover the limb with gauze wraps. Just one or two wraps with any cheap medical gauze will do. This you might want to buy online. I found I could wipe out several local stores of all their stock in every size, or I could buy an entire case of 24 rolls online for about $12. Once you've wrapped the limb with gauze, making sure to completely cover the entire skin area to be casted, you're ready to open the roll of tape. Have your assistant open a roll of tape while you sit and hold your limb steady. Swish the tape roll around in the bucket of warm water for about 10 seconds, and then roll it out onto the limb, going around and overlapping as you go. Continuously smooth out the tape to prevent wrinkles, as the resin in the tape begins to set very quickly and once hard, it's not going to budge. Keep the limb in it's natural position, fully extended, while the assistant wraps the tape around it, being careful not to wrap it too tight. You don't really wnat to make it snug because it will tend to shrink just a bit as the resin cures (it's made for making casts after all). You want to make the cast as close to the girdth of your actual limb as possible, so no more than one overlapping run over the entire limb (which may take several rolls of tape if your limbs are wide or long like mine). If you do it quickly enough and with finesse, it will stick together. After the cast is on, wait about 5 minutes for it to dry, then cut it off with the scissors, being very careful not to jab or cut your skin in the process. Once the cast is off, you can tape the cut open part shut with packing tape and stuff the cast with plastic grocery bags. Casts of both your arms and both your legs all together will weigh less than 5lb. Pack them snugly in a box and mail them to your armorer.
Viola', it's as if you're standing right there in the armorer's shop, and the entire process only took about 20 minutes and the mess consists of a wet towel and empty gauze and tape packets.
Here are some example pictures that one of my armorers used. I've used this technique twice now with two different armorers and it worked great both times.
An arm harness being made to fit my arm cast, after it was wrapped with bubble wrap to simulate my gambesson thickness. Note how the cast can match the contour of your body all the way through your shoulder joint:
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa296/scott2978/Fiber_arms_zpsb126141e.jpg)
A leg harness being sanity-checked before shipping. Note how you can see that my cast goes all the way from crotch to ankles:
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa296/scott2978/Fiber_legs_zps1c586a4f.jpg)
Scott
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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A modern twist on the casting method used in period! Nice idea!
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That's really cool...anyone interested in acquiring a fitted custom plate harness should be going this route if they can't get to the armorer themselves. Using bubble wrap to mimic your gambeson was excellent- I wondered how'd you deal with approximating undergarments and such. Great stuff, thanks for sharing!
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I'm afraid to ask... what are the going rates for custom suits?
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Do you use Altocast or the premium stuff?
P.S. This is awesome...I am lucky that the armorer I think I am going to use lives 45 min away (Tom Justus/Eldrid Treymange)
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I'm afraid to ask... what are the going rates for custom suits?
Depends on what century you are looking at and how authetic...also what material...most spring steel 14th century harnesses would cost between 4k-10k and that is because they dont have fluting etc...
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That's really cool...anyone interested in acquiring a fitted custom plate harness should be going this route if they can't get to the armorer themselves. Using bubble wrap to mimic your gambeson was excellent- I wondered how'd you deal with approximating undergarments and such. Great stuff, thanks for sharing!
Agreed, the bubble wrap is a great idea. What I did with mine was wrap a couple extra layers of gauze to simulate the padding thickness, so my overall cast was "leg + padding", rather than putting the bubble wrap on top. Which means I wasted some gauze. Luckily I did the same 24 rolls for $12 online purchase!
Pic from my Book of Faces, when I did casts for my greaves last year:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/543756_10200529693101472_1073570530_n.jpg)
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Wilburnicus: The 3 biggest factors are:
- How historical your armor will be
- What metal it will be made from
- which armorer you choose
Those three things include a lot of design, style, history, time and money choices though. How historical you want to be will limit all your other choices. I'd say if you want to do a mid-13th century very historical impression, all the plate pieces (couter, rerebrace, vambrace, half-greave, poleyn, sabatons, bascinet, great helm and gauntlets) done in mild steel without a lot of decorative extras, custom made to fit you, could be done for around $3,000. If you wanted it in spring steel then $4,000. If you wanted the same with full fancy detail, then maybe $8,000. If you wanted to move into the 14th century, the more plate, the more decoration, the more money. A fully historical mid-late 14th century harness (which can really only be mild steel) you'd be looking at starting at $8,000 for the most austere harness, up to around $30,000 or more for all the trimmings like brass accents around all the parts, hot oil blueing and hammer raised pieces. Every single part of a fully historical and fully blinged-out harness is an amazing work of art all by itself. A harness at the pinnacle of modern armor reproductions sold at auction in Germany in 2006 with a starting bid of 30,000 Euros. The final price was secret but it wouldn't surprise me if it broke a hundred thousand dollars. Of course that's the pinnacle, far beyond us mere mortals, but it does help us to keep some humility about our own efforts to look the part.
Scott
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Belemrys: I've tried both and prefer to use the cheaper Altocast. It works just as well and costs less.
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Wilburnicus: The 3 biggest factors are:
- How historical your armor will be
- What metal it will be made from
- which armorer you choose
I would add what level of polish you want on your armor as well. Polishing is very time consuming and the difference between satin and mirror polishing can be in the $100's.
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Well, in that case I'll wait a decade or two before buying a harness.
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Should of done this for my greaves, they dont exactly fit well over the maille I have, though now that I closed the maille I dont need them nearly as much.
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Well, in that case I'll wait a decade or two before buying a harness.
Actually only fabulously wealthy people can afford to buy a whole harness all at once. The best way to do it is to buy it piece by piece and build your harness over time. Once you know what look you're going for, pick just one piece (either the legs or the helmet are best) and hire the best armorer you can and spend the money to get the best one of those you can get. Most of the time it will pay to do the legs first, because that will reduce your fatigue, but sometimes doing the helm first can give you more payback because it's the most visible part of the harness. And it sort of depends on what you'll be using the harness for - a BOTN harness will have different priorities from living history. Once you have that first piece in the oven, start planning the next. Keep going until you reach your goal and make as few compromises as you can manage along the way, and eventually you will own your dream harness that you could never afford to buy all at once.
Scott
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That's encouraging at least. But for now, I'm just going to work my way through the armor timeline. Starting out with the 11th century, then progressing to the 14th.
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That's encouraging at least. But for now, I'm just going to work my way through the armor timeline. Starting out with the 11th century, then progressing to the 14th.
If it makes you feel any better, I've still got a piece being made for my harness and I started it in 2011.
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speaking of which, Jeff sent me this photo this morning! It's sitting on a plaster cast that Jeff made of me in 2011 that he luckily saved!
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3819/12705576014_ff77ec302e_o.jpg)
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Ian, you have me green with envy! 8)
My sabatons were semi-custom; made to a tracing of my feet. To have pair that are truly custom (and beautiful) made by Jeff would be a dream!
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That's encouraging at least. But for now, I'm just going to work my way through the armor timeline. Starting out with the 11th century, then progressing to the 14th.
It's actually a really good way to do it. You basically keep building off a foundation as you go through the timeline. The only real difference is in the haubergeon vs hauberk, depending how far into the 14th you push.
speaking of which, Jeff sent me this photo this morning! It's sitting on a plaster cast that Jeff made of me in 2011 that he luckily saved!
He must have some kind of special spots for you. :) When I talked to him back in 2012 about getting a helmet fit over my gorget, it was a 1 year wait time and I think 2-3 month build time. Very nice!
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speaking of which, Jeff sent me this photo this morning! It's sitting on a plaster cast that Jeff made of me in 2011 that he luckily saved!
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3819/12705576014_ff77ec302e_o.jpg)
OMG they aren't even done yet and they look gorgeous already! :)
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So! It's you that Jeff is working on sabatons for! I've been following the discussion about sabaton heel plates and spurs over on AA. Looks from your pic that he's going with a hinged heel plate and rivet articulated lames. I looked at a lot of effigies and brasses trying to determine if they had heel plates and on most it's impossible to be certain. They look smooth like steel but don't have any visible hinge, edge, or buckle. Also they tend to depict the spur covering the intersection of the greave and sabaton heel so there is no marking to determine anything. It does make me wonder about the spurs though because extant spurs don't show any indication of attachment points either. Not that lack of evidence should be considered evidence in itself, but I find it curious. Very curious.
Will Jeff be putting the hinge inside or outside? He said he saw one extant example from the period that had the hinge on the inside but didn't post any pics. It seems it would be uncomfortable unless you use integral hinges or put it on the outside. After March I have to send my sabs back to get re-strapped, I might get a heel plate if Hildebrandt can work an integral hinge into it, but that would mean new spurs as well... decisions, decisions.
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So! It's you that Jeff is working on sabatons for! I've been following the discussion about sabaton heel plates and spurs over on AA. Looks from your pic that he's going with a hinged heel plate and rivet articulated lames. I looked at a lot of effigies and brasses trying to determine if they had heel plates and on most it's impossible to be certain. They look smooth like steel but don't have any visible hinge, edge, or buckle. Also they tend to depict the spur covering the intersection of the greave and sabaton heel so there is no marking to determine anything. It does make me wonder about the spurs though because extant spurs don't show any indication of attachment points either. Not that lack of evidence should be considered evidence in itself, but I find it curious. Very curious.
Will Jeff be putting the hinge inside or outside? He said he saw one extant example from the period that had the hinge on the inside but didn't post any pics. It seems it would be uncomfortable unless you use integral hinges or put it on the outside. After March I have to send my sabs back to get re-strapped, I might get a heel plate if Hildebrandt can work an integral hinge into it, but that would mean new spurs as well... decisions, decisions.
Hinged on the outside. I can see the holes for it.
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Yes, I believe they will be hinged on the outside. They will secure using a pin with a toggle to lock them closed. I didn't realize there was a discussion on the AA about them, I will have to check that out!
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So! It's you that Jeff is working on sabatons for! I've been following the discussion about sabaton heel plates and spurs over on AA. Looks from your pic that he's going with a hinged heel plate and rivet articulated lames. I looked at a lot of effigies and brasses trying to determine if they had heel plates and on most it's impossible to be certain. They look smooth like steel but don't have any visible hinge, edge, or buckle. Also they tend to depict the spur covering the intersection of the greave and sabaton heel so there is no marking to determine anything. It does make me wonder about the spurs though because extant spurs don't show any indication of attachment points either. Not that lack of evidence should be considered evidence in itself, but I find it curious. Very curious.
Will Jeff be putting the hinge inside or outside? He said he saw one extant example from the period that had the hinge on the inside but didn't post any pics. It seems it would be uncomfortable unless you use integral hinges or put it on the outside. After March I have to send my sabs back to get re-strapped, I might get a heel plate if Hildebrandt can work an integral hinge into it, but that would mean new spurs as well... decisions, decisions.
Hinged on the outside. I can see the holes for it.
Yes, it might be that the holes are countersunk for flush rivets on the outside, kinda hard to see. It's intruiging that Jeff would mention a historical pair with the hinges on the inside, I've never even imagined doing it like that.
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Hmm... I meant hinged on the "outside" meaning the hinge on the outside of the foot, rather than the hinge on the outside of the steel (vs inset). I'm not sure if the hinge will be inset or outset.
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Yeah not really important to us I guess.
Hey Ian be sure to let us know how that works out ok! :)
The whole debate over how the heel plate was done historically is really mind boggling to me. The experts seem to have their opinions, and maybe it's just my noobishness clouding my judgement, but the effigies just don't show any seams at all. Not a single one that I've looked at has a hinge on it. But my logical mind then screams back at me "Then how the hell did he put the thing on?!" I just don't see a grown man getting his foot through the top of a sabaton without separating the front and back somehow. So then why are there no effigies showing a hinge? Or even a seam in the armor for that matter? It just grates on my mind.
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Yeah not really important to us I guess.
Hey Ian be sure to let us know how that works out ok! :)
The whole debate over how the heel plate was done historically is really mind boggling to me. The experts seem to have their opinions, and maybe it's just my noobishness clouding my judgement, but the effigies just don't show any seams at all. Not a single one that I've looked at has a hinge on it. But my logical mind then screams back at me "Then how the hell did he put the thing on?!" I just don't see a grown man getting his foot through the top of a sabaton without separating the front and back somehow. So then why are there no effigies showing a hinge? Or even a seam in the armor for that matter? It just grates on my mind.
You can definitely get your foot into a sabaton if the heel plate were one piece. You just stretch your foot "flat", sort of like putting on chausses, and slide it up towards your calf. Then put on and tie your shoe, and let the sabaton come back down. Try it by buckling your sabaton closed and pretending it's one piece. I can do it. However it's far from "natural" and seems impractical, especially with the consideration that there is no real difference in protection to have it hinged or solid.
There are very few pieces of armor that are solid "rounded" shapes: late period fully-wrapped rerebraces and late model couters that enclose the whole arm (like mine). The only one that might be telling is gauntlet cuffs - stick your hands in, stick your feet in - but we are talking entirely different extremities in form and function.
Gorgets are 2+ pieces
Vambraces are 2+ pieces
Cuirasses are 2+ pieces (early churburg is sectional)
Cuisses are 2+ pieces
Greaves are 2+ pieces
Very late period sabatons were sometimes integrated into the greaves:
(http://www.royalarmouries.org/assets-uploaded/images/source/Leg-defence.jpg)
It still doesn't solve the mystery of the sabaton heel / hinge, and it's already difficult to find pictures of the backs of armor, let alone the feet. It will likely be a topic of discussion for a long time.
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... It still doesn't solve the mystery of the sabaton heel / hinge, and it's already difficult to find pictures of the backs of armor, let alone the feet. It will likely be a topic of discussion for a long time.
Agreed, especially for the 14th century. I thought I had something to contribute, but after searching through my books, saved images and the Effigies & Brasses web site I came up empty handed. Scott's quote above is quite accurate and the whole thing is very frustrating.