ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Patrick on 2014-02-12, 18:45:39
-
My kit is pushing further into the mid-14th century than my sugarloaf will allow. At this point I'm guessing the armour us somewhere around 1340ish, so I want to try and stay within that decade (unless I'm off the mark). Sooo...do I go with a Pembridge great helm at this point? Seems like a bassinet will be too far in the future. Also, coat of plates and short surcoat?
-
Bascinets would have been around at this time, though I think things like the hundskull visors came later. They seem to have evolved from the cervelliere, so by this time, some of them were still rounded and not as pointy as later bascinets.
Here's an image from 1335:
(http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/1227-15_large.jpg)
And this one, from the Luttrell Psalter, is circa 1340. He even has what looks like a visored great helm for wear over the bascinet:
(http://www.threegoldbees.com/images/stories/collegia_notes/heraldic_frocks/luttrell_psalter.jpg)
I think the Pembridge-style is actually the later of the two helms, though it may have been contemporary. I'm not sure about that.
-
I was going to say 'Pembridge ftw' but I think I will await our 14th C Mafiosi brethren to chime in; I've always had a thing for the Pembridge style helm.
-
As far as I know the Pembridge helm is dated at 1370...where a sugarloaf helm would probably be 1330...bascinet's definitely were around in 1340 but it was a Klappvisor as opposed to a Houndskull.
-
I know Sir Richard Pembridge's helm dates from the 1370s, but wasn't the Black Prince's helm the same type? If yes, he would have worn his at Crecy in 1346. FWW, I'm leaning toward a Crecy impression.
-
The thing about Pembridge's and the Black Prince's helms that I wonder is: were they made at a later date as funerary helms, or were they something they actually wore throughout their career? If they were actually used, it might be reasonable to say that the helms would have dated earlier than the 1370s.
-
Ahhh...Crecy. Sir Patrick, have you ever read the Archer Series, by Bernard Cornwell? Set squarely in the timeframe of Crecy, it details the rise of a young English archer in Edward III's army. A great read, Cornwell has a way of depicting the horrors of war in such a way as to be able to almost smell the filth and the blood, to almost see the bodies writhing in pain from being hammered, pierced, slashed or dismembered by all manner of weaponry. I went on a tangent again; apologies.
As for the Pembridge helm, we know that it didn't come after 1370; as you'd stated, TBP's helm is much like it, if more ornate. Probably safe to say that you could get away with wearing one if that was your desire.
-
Sir William, I loved that series! If you haven't already checked it out, Cornwell recently added another chapter called 1356 about Poitiers.
Forgot to clarify in my OP: I was referring to visored bassinets like a houndskull with a "pig faced"-style visor. That's too much into the time frame of kits like Sirs Nathan and Ian. To pull that off, I'd need a total overhaul.
-
IMHO pinpointing a specific great helm style within a twenty year span is certainly plausible. Most especially during the wild and wonky transitional armor periods of the mid-14th century. I'd go with the Pembridge and claim 'trend setter' status! ;)
Oh and I'm checking out that series for sure! :)
-
Isn't this the same style helm. It's Sir Hans Reiter's and dates to 1350. The aventail was a later addition.
-
Sir Patrick, great helms and bascinets co-exist. The bigger issue though is that the great helm sees less and less use in the field as the century goes on. The Pembridge Helm would likely be a tournament helm, not a foot combat helm. Great helms may have been used for the initial cavalry charge mid century, but there's a good chance the bascinet underneath is what saw the majority of the fighting after the great helm was discarded.
Depending on how far in to the 14th you're delving, you may want to forget a great helm and focus on an open-faced bascinet.
-
I second Sir Ian's sage advice. Klappvisor Bascinet would be your best bet as a visored field Bascinet, but I think most were likely worn without face protection to enhance visibility. That's just my opinion, though...
-
Thank you all for your advice. I think I'll start looking at klapvisors!
-
For A Crecy impression an open faced Bascinet is probably the most appropriate.
-
Sir William, I loved that series! If you haven't already checked it out, Cornwell recently added another chapter called 1356 about Poitiers.
I have it and read it a couple of times...felt a little rushed to me. Still, Cornwell's at the top of his game so it was a good read.
-
For A Crecy impression an open faced Bascinet is probably the most appropriate.
Sir Ian, for 1380-1400 French are there options besides Houndskull Bascinets? My wife gets the willies from the houndskull and I am looking at that period for my kit atm...Still spanish but from all I have read the spanish used French trends for their armor...if maybe with some latitude on the dating as they might have been up to 20 years behind the french...so really 1365-1390 French is more likely what a Spaniard would have worn.
Sorry to steal your thread Sir Patrick :)
-
For A Crecy impression an open faced Bascinet is probably the most appropriate.
Sir Ian, for 1380-1400 French are there options besides Houndskull Bascinets? My wife gets the willies from the houndskull and I am looking at that period for my kit atm...Still spanish but from all I have read the spanish used French trends for their armor...if maybe with some latitude on the dating as they might have been up to 20 years behind the french...so really 1365-1390 French is more likely what a Spaniard would have worn.
Sorry to steal your thread Sir Patrick :)
You always have the option of going visor-less.
You also might consider kettle-hat variations.
-
A bretache wouldn't fly huh? Too early I think...
Edit: I found some in italy from 1371 and 1382...so maybe...I like the bretach fix making an open faced bascinet combat viable!
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2811/2852/ (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2811/2852/)
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2751/2851/ (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2751/2851/)
-
Are you implying that an open-faced bascinet is not combat viable?
-
Are you implying that an open-faced bascinet is not combat viable?
SCA and ACL combat is what I meant...I misspoke :)
-
I just can't bring myself to go with an open faced bascinet. It makes me think of those two English commanders at the Sterling battle in Braveheart. Besides, a visor or helm's eyeslits are way more menacing IMO ;)
-
Are you implying that an open-faced bascinet is not combat viable?
SCA and ACL combat is what I meant...I misspoke :)
I can't speak to ACL combat, but for the SCA I've seen quite a few awesome bascinets with houndskull visors, bascinets with round nose klappvisors, and kettle hats with well disguised bar grills and mail pseudo-coifs (essentially aventails).
1350-1370 was quite an exciting time for helmets! :)
-
So I tracked down some period art depicting the Crecy campaign. Are the helmets pictured the same as the photo? Tough for me to determine for sure since period art can look a bit wonky.
-
well, i believe the helmet is supposed to be the great bascinet rather than the klapvisor.
-
well, i believe the helmet is supposed to be the great bascinet rather than the klapvisor.
So you think it's this one?
-
So I tracked down some period art depicting the Crecy campaign. Are the helmets pictured the same as the photo? Tough for me to determine for sure since period art can look a bit wonky.
This artwork post-dates Crecy by 60 years. It was painted in 1410! While it does depict Edward III at Crecy, the armor and styles in the illumination are very late 14th / early 15th century.
Be very careful with period artwork. What usually matters is when it was painted, not when it's subject took place. Medieval artists tended to paint everything in the style of the present day, not the day in which the events of their paintings took place.
Long story short, those helmets in that painting are NOT appropriate for Crecy.
For informational purposes only, the helmets depicted in that panel from Froissart are more akin to this helmet. It's in a style in between the true 'Great Bascinet' and the standard Houndskull Bascinet in that it starts to round out the snout of the houndskull, but still incorporates a maille aventail instead of rigid throat defense:
(http://www.wassonartistry.com/images/armor/helmets/IMG_1427.JPG)
-
thats purdy
-
That IS purdy!
-
I cannot wear a pigeon beak bascinet.
-
That IS purdy!
It is (it's Jeff Wasson). But did you catch the part about the paintings you linked being 60 years too late? I don't want you to spend a bunch of money on a helmet style that's not correct if you're trying to stick to Crecy era. ;)
-
Yes I did, and I feel a little silly for not checking the dates. I've been doing this long enough to know better ;D. That is a really cool helm and I don't believe I've ever seen a reproduction of that particular style. Thanks for posting it!
-
There are surviving examples of the international style (ie: conical) visored bascinets from as early as 1360, and the predominantly German klapvisor predates that by at least a decade (though there is plenty of evidence of English using them as well).
With a new impression, your first question should always be "How historical do I want this to be?". Your answer will be based on circumstances, like whether you intend it for living history, actual fighting or just renfaire use, and your available budget. But once this difficult choice is made, everything else should fall into place. If you decide that you're OK stretching history a bit, it is my opinion that due to the fact that period art, effigies, rolls and brasses are so unreliable as a means of 100% positive identification of what was and was not at any one particular point in time and geography, that you should still be OK to stretch the limits by about 10 years either direction. But perhaps I misspoje when I said your first concern should be how historical you want to be. After all, you'll get far more satisfaction out of wearing what you want than being "perfectly uninteresting" to yourself.
Scott
-
Hi Scott, welcome to the forums; I remember you from the AA.
-
Not to hijack the thread, but thanks! I hope I made a good impression there :)
Ian and I bump into each other online a sometimes as our tastes and views on armor are similar, and he once invited me here. I thought although that was a while back that I'd come see what's up over here.
Anyway, thanks for the welcome and back to the helmets!
Somewhere I read that those Cornwell novels are popular, and if I recall in the depiction of Crecy the knights are wearing visors on their helms... not that a fiction novel has anything to do with a historical discussion... except that his depiction of how those visored helms were used seemed particularly spot on to me. Worth reading for that at least.
Scott
Scott
-
Hail and welcome to the Forum, Scott! Thanks for the helmet advice!
-
Aye, welcome to the forum! :)
-
Somewhere I read that those Cornwell novels are popular, and if I recall in the depiction of Crecy the knights are wearing visors on their helms... not that a fiction novel has anything to do with a historical discussion... except that his depiction of how those visored helms were used seemed particularly spot on to me. Worth reading for that at least.
Scott
I'm a big Cornwell fan and wondered at how accurate his depiction of arms, armor and tactics for that period were. As the largely uninformed reader (not with the 14th C yet) I wasn't sure, but it all read well.
He does make numerous references to 'ringmail coats' that seem different from a hauberk; I got the impression it was a leather coat with rings sewn/attached on (if only because he makes much of the leather backing being wet and rank from repeated use etc) and most everyone seemed to wear (or wanted to) long leather boots...but each one of his books, including the Sharpe series, has been a rollicking good read. If you check in the Library section, you'll find some reviews and discussion of some of the books of his I've read.
-
Ian and I bump into each other online a sometimes as our tastes and views on armor are similar, and he once invited me here. I thought although that was a while back that I'd come see what's up over here.
Hey Scott! Glad you came by to check us out!
-
Welcome Scott! I followed some of your stuff on AA too! These guys are great!