ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Mike W. on 2014-02-10, 20:00:11
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Does anyone know exactly what these squares are? I suspect they are an extra layer of leather backed maille intended for additional protection.
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It may or may not be completely backed with leather, but it's probably at least a leather edged extra patch of maille to give you a double layer over the heart.
(http://www.medievalrepro.com/Images/normfull.JPG)
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there are lots of theories. some say it could be a doubler for the chest against lance and spear trusts. some say it is the bib version of a ventail, it is simply untied and hanging down the front. etc etc
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I always thought they were bib vents.
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I'd be hesitant to say they're ventails, as I doubt they would have those metal points on the corners, and additionally no figures in the Bayeux tapestry are shown with ventails.
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Leather trim around the neckline is my guess
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additionally, if it was a ventail, wouldn't it be portrayed as being used? This knight engaged in battle is not wearing it up (assuming it is a ventail). thus leading me to believe it is in fact just extra maille over the vital organs.
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I'm inclined to agree that it's not a ventail, since it's never shown used as one, and it's displayed square in the middle of the chest on hauberks being worn and hauberks hanging on rods. It's definitely not leather trim around the neck line because it's depicted in the middle of the chest while worn.
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What about the Byzantine Bra?
(see mail covered guardsman in pic)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/46341_144785285561121_6434209_n.jpg)
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I'm thinking it served a similar function to the shoulder pads on the Lorica Hamata.
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I'm inclined to agree that it's not a ventail, since it's never shown used as one, and it's displayed square in the middle of the chest on hauberks being worn and hauberks hanging on rods. It's definitely not leather trim around the neck line because it's depicted in the middle of the chest while worn.
I had to look at the pic again to spot the square on the one guy where it is being worn, I missed it earlier. I'm not sure what is going on with that guy.
The ones on the pole, I still believe are leather trimmed necks. A properly tailored haubergeon / hauberk isn't symmetrical front and back, and the back will have a straighter cut than the front of the neck, and look "open" from the front, similar to how it sits on the pole. The edging at the end of the sleeves and lower hem seems to support the leather used specifically for edging, and although I've only done so around the house so far, I've noticed less "snagging" with a leather trimmed edge by having fewer "loose" rings to catch easily and letting the mail "slide" more naturally when going on/off - this may be a modernism due to the way our modern indian produced mail has the lumpy rivets vs proper smoother historical mail, so I don't consider it as anything other than personal experience. I did take my inspiration on the leather trim from the Bayeaux Tapestry images a couple years back.
See these people, also from Bayeaux Tapestry (Battle of Normandy), who seem to be wearing mail with a leather collar or trim. Note that none of them have a square of leather on their chest. They also seem to have the same sleeve and hem leather trim, not likely to be an undergarment since it follows the flow of the mail and sticks out, which makes me suspect it is attached/laced together in some way.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02450/battle-hastings_2450199b.jpg)
(http://www.travelsignposts.com/France/files/2010/04/Bayeux-Tapestry_S.jpg)
(http://www.mkheritage.co.uk/sga/images/gayhurst/bishop-odo.jpg)
(http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/history/hastings.jpg)
King Harold and someone next to him (off to the right) not only seem to have leather trimmed sleeves, but a second sleeve of mail underneath, with it's own leather trim. He is also "missing" the square reinforcing bit in front, and if the pattern of mail in the picture can be taken as generally correct, it appears his coif is worn inside the haubergeon, and the haubergeon neck has leather trim.
(http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fileadmin/historyLearningSite/bayeau9.jpg)
None of them have a raised ventail either, all picture with open faces / norman conicals, which I think further shows it likely was not an opened ventail. If the King himself didn't have a ventail, I would be surprised if other soldiers did. I do wonder if Harold had a hauberk under a haubergeon for substantial double-layered protection, due to the prominence of his seemingly double-sleeves.
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lol u also gotta remember this was made by women several years after the fact as a propaganda machine. it wasn't made as a period history lesson lol
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Though it seems to me to have a lot of English undertones rather than a strictly pro-Norman message. And the artists seem to have an eye for detail. I think the Bayeux Tapestry can be used greatly as a historical source.
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Also vote for leather covered neck/arm ends, also helps taking it on/off.
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Historian J. R. Planche argued in 1847 that it was a "square pectoral" used for an extra layer of protection.
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Historian J. R. Planche argued in 1847 that it was a "square pectoral" used for an extra layer of protection.
I'd be cautious of that, as the Victorian era is responsible for a plethora of armor destruction and inaccurate "knowledge".
Looking at the first pic you posted again, I enlarged it, and I'm wondering if he has a leather neck liner as in the ones that I posted, supplemented by the "varangian bra" that Thorsteinn posted. It would look essentially square from certain angles. Any other pics showing the square on the chest area? I'm quite curious now.
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They appear here and there throughout the tapestry, but I haven't seen any similar depiction in any other contemporary source.
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i have come to believe that the square is fully leather backed and is attached to the hauberk. i believe this to be an added layer of chest protection that could be taken off. my reasoning is that the normans rode in warfare and "jousted" on horseback. before this it is known that men road to war on horses but got off to fight. this square would give the wearer an added chest protection from the spear point in practice and Durand war against someone else whom they though would fight on horseback
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Historian J. R. Planche argued in 1847 that it was a "square pectoral" used for an extra layer of protection.
I'd be cautious of that, as the Victorian era is responsible for a plethora of armor destruction and inaccurate "knowledge".
Dang Victorians! We can't trust anything they said, without researching it again from scratch. Even the things they got right can't be trusted. ;)
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i have come to believe that the square is fully leather backed and is attached to the hauberk. i believe this to be an added layer of chest protection that could be taken off. my reasoning is that the normans rode in warfare and "jousted" on horseback. before this it is known that men road to war on horses but got off to fight. this square would give the wearer an added chest protection from the spear point in practice and Durand war against someone else whom they though would fight on horseback
concur
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i have come to believe that the square is fully leather backed and is attached to the hauberk. i believe this to be an added layer of chest protection that could be taken off. my reasoning is that the normans rode in warfare and "jousted" on horseback. before this it is known that men road to war on horses but got off to fight. this square would give the wearer an added chest protection from the spear point in practice and Durand war against someone else whom they though would fight on horseback
concur
As do I; of course actual maille being as scarce as it is, we're left with images- be they statues, frescoes, paintings, weavings- and exposition. If those images are to believed as being actual representations of what was worn at the time of the creation of said image, then it isn't too far a reach to suppose that it could be the precursor to the breastplate.
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OK, I'm won over. They are not aventails.
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Am I completely nutty in thinking the ones I posted with the brown around the necks, sleeves and hems are not leather trim? I can't see them as possibly being chest reinforcements.
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I'm inclined to agree that it's not a ventail, since it's never shown used as one, and it's displayed square in the middle of the chest on hauberks being worn and hauberks hanging on rods. It's definitely not leather trim around the neck line because it's depicted in the middle of the chest while worn.
now i dunno, this could be. it's been awhile since i've gone thru my 100 some books on normans etc. but but, most of the men depicted in these scenes are english. save for harald and he's not norman either. so they wouldn't need an extra chest protector if they don't fight via lance.
I had to look at the pic again to spot the square on the one guy where it is being worn, I missed it earlier. I'm not sure what is going on with that guy.
The ones on the pole, I still believe are leather trimmed necks. A properly tailored haubergeon / hauberk isn't symmetrical front and back, and the back will have a straighter cut than the front of the neck, and look "open" from the front, similar to how it sits on the pole. The edging at the end of the sleeves and lower hem seems to support the leather used specifically for edging, and although I've only done so around the house so far, I've noticed less "snagging" with a leather trimmed edge by having fewer "loose" rings to catch easily and letting the mail "slide" more naturally when going on/off - this may be a modernism due to the way our modern indian produced mail has the lumpy rivets vs proper smoother historical mail, so I don't consider it as anything other than personal experience. I did take my inspiration on the leather trim from the Bayeaux Tapestry images a couple years back.
See these people, also from Bayeaux Tapestry (Battle of Normandy), who seem to be wearing mail with a leather collar or trim. Note that none of them have a square of leather on their chest. They also seem to have the same sleeve and hem leather trim, not likely to be an undergarment since it follows the flow of the mail and sticks out, which makes me suspect it is attached/laced together in some way.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02450/battle-hastings_2450199b.jpg)
(http://www.travelsignposts.com/France/files/2010/04/Bayeux-Tapestry_S.jpg)
(http://www.mkheritage.co.uk/sga/images/gayhurst/bishop-odo.jpg)
(http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/history/hastings.jpg)
King Harold and someone next to him (off to the right) not only seem to have leather trimmed sleeves, but a second sleeve of mail underneath, with it's own leather trim. He is also "missing" the square reinforcing bit in front, and if the pattern of mail in the picture can be taken as generally correct, it appears his coif is worn inside the haubergeon, and the haubergeon neck has leather trim.
(http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fileadmin/historyLearningSite/bayeau9.jpg)
None of them have a raised ventail either, all picture with open faces / norman conicals, which I think further shows it likely was not an opened ventail. If the King himself didn't have a ventail, I would be surprised if other soldiers did. I do wonder if Harold had a hauberk under a haubergeon for substantial double-layered protection, due to the prominence of his seemingly double-sleeves.