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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Ian on 2014-02-04, 21:01:20
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So, for whatever reason I've become obsessed lately with medieval footwear. There are a lot of myths and misconceptions about what our ancestors wore on their feet and a lot of it comes from the modern reproduction medieval footwear that is mass produced, and poorly interpreted.
The biggest myth that gets me is that people think medieval footwear was slippery, and that somehow medieval people just got used to it, or had some technique for not falling everywhere that they walked. This is of course just as silly as it sounds. The culprit is a combination of things. I think the first cause of this misconception is our preconceived and very modern notion that the sole of a shoe should be hard. All modern rubber shoe soles are hard (well, most are, but I'll get in to that in a minute). The modern mind is so convinced that a shoe sole needs to be hard, that the reproduction mass market decided that so too should medieval footwear have a hard sole. This may be a case of the chicken or the egg though...
The end result is reproduction shoes with hardened leather soles. What does hardened leather do when you walk on grass? It turns every natural surface in to a slip-and-slide! So what do we do? Do we question why there's hardened leather on the shoe? No! We just assume medieval people were crazy, and correct their idiocy by adding a modern rubber or lugged sole to a medieval reproduction shoe... then we all have a nice big sigh of relief when we walk across that field and maintain our footing!
Right now a 14th century cordwainer is rolling over in his grave while simultaneously laughing at how we got it so wrong.
Luckily, we have a modern analog to what makes medieval footwear great, and healthier to wear. Those strange minimalist shoes with the 5 toes on them that look really weird... (I've run and worked out in these for years). They in essence allow you to do everything as if you're barefoot, while offering protection from stuff on the ground like rocks, puddles, dirt etc... They have some amazing benefits though. They get you to use all the muscles in your foot that modern footwear forces you to neglect. Modern shoes teach you to run incorrectly and break our proper biomechanic pattern by allowing us to do what our feet were not designed to do. Those goofy five-finger shoes force you to re-learn how to walk and run like a person was supposed to. You develop the muscles that you haven't used since you spend most of your time barefoot. But what about ankle support? This is of course another crutch that modern shoes have caused us to rely upon because they do so much work for you, your underdeveloped and weak stabilizing muscles in your foot and ankle don't work like they should.
Now enter proper medieval footwear. The sole of every surviving medieval shoe is a nice supple soft piece of leather. This affords all the same benefits as being barefoot while offering you some protection from stuff on the ground like rocks, puddles, dirt etc... sound familiar? It allows you to feel the ground! It doesn't slip because it's not hardened. It keeps your muscles working properly and negates the need for ankle support. It protects you from the ground. If you're going to be walking around on particularly rough surfaces then you of course had the option to wear pattens (wooden overshoes, like sandals that strap to your turnshoe).
Erase those misconceptions from your mind that medieval footwear is slippery and not suited for use in reenactment! Our ancestors were not fools, we are the fools for trying to improve upon what they already had right! We took their shoes out of their medieval context, ruined them, and gave a lot of people a lot of misconceptions about what our medieval counterparts really wore. :)
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And where does one get proper 14th century turnshoes? I think Frank @ Viking has a hardened leather shot bottom no?
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Mind you this changes when you start looking at pattens, caligae, etc.
And where does one get proper 14th century turnshoes? I think Frank @ Viking has a hardened leather shot bottom no?
Armlann, Bohemond Boots, & Revival also sell period turn shoes.
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I agree, I started with some really cheap MRL "medieval shoe-boots" that have a very thin soft sole. A day at MDRF walking around was rough since the sole was so thin, and I could feel the rocks and uneven ground through my feet from it.
I like the lugged soles because it lets me run lacing and straps under the shoes without having to walk directly on the lacing and straps. I nipped out a lug on each side so that my spur strap sits flush with the bottom of the lugs, instead of hanging down.
I'd also call that a modernism, since I doubt they cared about walking on spur straps, and would primarily be wearing spurs when, surprise, on horseback - not walking around a renn fest for 8 hours.
Although I'm really curious about those 5-toed shoes. Have you seen the people who run barefoot? A while back, someone said that running barefoot was better for you than running in shoes, even if they are $100/$200 fancy ultra-light running shoes. Similar idea?
Frank at Viking Leather has a standard leather sole. He can add a vibram sole, or lugged sole to it. I'm not sure if he does custom sole requests or not, but he's a great guy and if it's something you want, ask him.
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And where does one get proper 14th century turnshoes? I think Frank @ Viking has a hardened leather shot bottom no?
Viking Leather just re-sells Westland boots, which are manufactured in Pakistan. There also not turnshoes, so they're not really period to most of the periods they claim. They're welted I believe which is not period for the bulk of the medieval era despite their labels on the website.
Bohemond is a step from Viking, in that at least their turnshoes are actually turnshoes, but they glue in the heal stiffeners and use hardened leather soles that are super slippery.
The best way to get real turnshoes is to make them yourself of course! That's what I'm going to be doing here shortly.
If you just want to buy a pair you can get good medieval footwear here:
Dru Shoemaker's (http://home.comcast.net/~meisterdru/index.htm) shop will make them.
If you want to spend more:
Plantagenet Shoes (http://www.plantagenetshoes.co.uk/home.aspx)
NP Historical Shoes (http://www.np-historicalshoes.com/home.php?lang=en)
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As for spur straps, a proper supple sole allows the spur strap to naturally go in to the arch of your foot and you wouldn't be walking on it like you describe.
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Heh, I started with those MRL boots with the soft sole, too. I actually found them rather comfortable, probably because I do spend a lot of time walking barefoot (Or in socks if it's cold. I go through socks like crazy...).
I settled for the Viking Leather shoes because...well...I'm cheap. And for my purposes, they're good enough for now. I had originally planned to make my own, but was kind of iffy about making shoes. Some places say correct shaping of the vamps is important, others say it doesn't really matter that much and that there often wasn't even a proper "left" and "right" in medieval shoes. I was basically worried that I'd end up hobbling myself because I messed up something.
I'm curious, though, as to what they did in snow. Pattens would work for a few inches but what about really deep snow? Bigger pattens? Stay indoors? It just doesn't seem like turnshoes would be very protective in the snow.
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A rand in between the vamps and the sole will help make the shoe more watertight, but it's definitely an issue. Christian Cameron recently wore his harness in the snow with authentic turnshoes and said they held up quite well. I've never done it myself.
If you're interested in making your own Doug, these two books are probably some of the best resources to get your started on proper construction and technique:
Shoes and Pattens (http://www.amazon.com/Shoes-Pattens-Medieval-Excavations-London/dp/1843832380/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1)
or
Stepping Through Time (http://www.amazon.com/Stepping-Through-Time-Archaeological-Prehistoric/dp/9089320024/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391553024&sr=1-1&keywords=stepping+through+time)
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I wonder if they also could have had some kind of oil mixture to help weatherproof it. I'm sure they had some kind of clever solution for snow that we don't know about. Then again, if Mr. Cameron wore his without issue, then it may not have been that big of a problem to them in the first place. Who knows?
If you're interested in making your own Doug, these two books are probably some of the best resources to get your started on proper construction and technique:
Shoes and Pattens (http://www.amazon.com/Shoes-Pattens-Medieval-Excavations-London/dp/1843832380/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1)
or
Stepping Through Time (http://www.amazon.com/Stepping-Through-Time-Archaeological-Prehistoric/dp/9089320024/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391553024&sr=1-1&keywords=stepping+through+time)
See, this is why I like you; you always know where to find awesome stuff for Do-It-Yourselfers. But at the same time, I also hate you for that very same reason. Just when I think I have everything I need some other goodie comes along. ;)
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Oil mixed with beeswax was a practice for finishing leather. But long-term water exposure would still be tough to fight I think.
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What's your opinion on the illustrations that show people wearing nothing but woolen chausses? Given the soft nature of period shoes, it probably wouldn't be beyond reason to go without additional foot covering. I would think chausses meant to be worn by themselves would probably benefit from a leather sole, if for no other reason than to prevent the fabric sole from wearing out quickly.
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What's your opinion on the illustrations that show people wearing nothing but woolen chausses? Given the soft nature of period shoes, it probably wouldn't be beyond reason to go without additional foot covering. I would think chausses meant to be worn by themselves would probably benefit from a leather sole, if for no other reason than to prevent the fabric sole from wearing out quickly.
I can't recall, but I'm almost certain there are depictions of chausses that did have a sole, intended for wear without a shoe.
Chuck would probably know.
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Ian is quickly becoming our resident expert on... well... everything. :)
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Ian is quickly becoming our resident expert on... well... everything. :)
Chuck knows all this crap... he just likes turtles too much :)
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My fighting footwear progression has, thus far, gone from white tennis shoes (give me a break, it was the early 90’s) to hiking boots with lots of ankle support ( ::) ) to steel toe barn boots (with heels!) to Viking Leathercraft 14th century buckle boots.
I love feeling the ground beneath my feet with Frank’s imported Westland shoes. Although they’re not the most historically accurate shoe out there, they sure do feel good and look OK from 10’ (great by SCA standards). The next logical step for me is to explore the shoe makers that Ian’s noted above. One small step at a time. ;)
P.S. Ian, don't sell yourself short. You are a wealth of good information and I'm very interested to hear more of your recent brush with La Belle!
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hahahaha.
ya i think i've lost more information over the years than i care to remember. some turn shoes have rands, others welts, others don't. stitch thru the sides and thru a 45 angle on the bottoms. for great books check out: Stepping Through Time: Archaeological Footwear from Prehistoric Times until 1800 and Shoes and Pattens (Medieval Finds from Excavations in London)
i make all my shoes. and no i will not take orders hahahaha.
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hahahaha.
ya i think i've lost more information over the years than i care to remember. some turn shoes have rands, others welts, others don't. stitch thru the sides and thru a 45 angle on the bottoms. for great books check out: Stepping Through Time: Archaeological Footwear from Prehistoric Times until 1800 and Shoes and Pattens (Medieval Finds from Excavations in London)
i make all my shoes. and no i will not take orders hahahaha.
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/79/79af6b3bc5b23131ace1d835c402fa444ebd7cfc574c6b040665280337e74d7e.jpg)
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i make all my shoes. and no i will not take orders hahahaha.
You won't even take orders from the Order? What if the Order orders you to take orders? ;)
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hah. you are a funny guy.
"#1 i order you to take a #2"
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I actually enjoy wearing sneakers at my nearby renfaire as a joke.
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you like to poke puppies in the eyes with sharp sticks to don't you? lol jk
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The fact that I wear sneakers means I'll preform better in combat.
And yes wolf.
I do poke puppies in eyes with sticks.
And you drink virgin blood.
Then again... Who doesn't!
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meh, but we will know and call you a farb lol jk
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My uncle called me farb once.... Once!
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I have pair of true turn shoes and a pair of the Viking Leather Craft imports. The turn shoes are cheap and moccasin like in feel but very comfortable. I think the sole would wear through quickly on rough rocky ground. But, they could be resoled easily by period methods. The import shoes are made specifically so they can be resoled by a modern shoe repairer. That was one of their selling points by the vendor. I thought the healess design would play havoc with an old injury in one leg. Just the opposite. My feet and legs were not nearly as fatigued as Thry would have been in modern shoes after three days on my feet at DOK last year.
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So which one has a healess design? VLC or turnshoes?
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Belemrys,
Both are healess designs. The heal as we know it, did not appear until late in the Medieval period when welted sole shoes appeared.
Having said that, I added a piece of leather where a heal would normally be on the Viking shoes only because I could tell that the edges of the back sole would wear through quickly due to my gimpy leg on one side. I can peal that off and replace it easily and prevent unecessary trips to the shoe repair.
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Belemrys,
Both are healess designs. The heal as we know it, did not appear until late in the Medieval period when welted sole shoes appeared.
Having said that, I added a piece of leather where a heal would normally be on the Viking shoes only because I could tell that the edges of the back sole would wear through quickly due to my gimpy leg on one side. I can peal that off and replace it easily and prevent unecessary trips to the shoe repair.
I believe Frank @ VLC will add a heel if requested. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think my lugged soles addition also has a heel. Default is no heel, though.. so if you hear conflicting info that "My VLC has a heel" and "mine doesn't" it's because it's optional.
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Belemrys,
Both are healess designs. The heal as we know it, did not appear until late in the Medieval period when welted sole shoes appeared.
Having said that, I added a piece of leather where a heal would normally be on the Viking shoes only because I could tell that the edges of the back sole would wear through quickly due to my gimpy leg on one side. I can peal that off and replace it easily and prevent unecessary trips to the shoe repair.
I believe Frank @ VLC will add a heel if requested. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think my lugged soles addition also has a heel. Default is no heel, though.. so if you hear conflicting info that "My VLC has a heel" and "mine doesn't" it's because it's optional.
Makes sense! I thought I had heard his had heals.
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I actually enjoy wearing sneakers at my nearby renfaire as a joke.
I just noticed your quote Nate, what a fantastically obscure reference :) I bet not many people get it without looking it up, but I just started over again after level 56, so it's fresh in my mind.
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A rand in between the vamps and the sole will help make the shoe more watertight, but it's definitely an issue. Christian Cameron recently wore his harness in the snow with authentic turnshoes and said they held up quite well. I've never done it myself.
If you're interested in making your own Doug, these two books are probably some of the best resources to get your started on proper construction and technique:
Shoes and Pattens (http://www.amazon.com/Shoes-Pattens-Medieval-Excavations-London/dp/1843832380/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1)
or
Stepping Through Time (http://www.amazon.com/Stepping-Through-Time-Archaeological-Prehistoric/dp/9089320024/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391553024&sr=1-1&keywords=stepping+through+time)
+1 project... my Bohemond turn shoes are wearing out, now the quest for more accurate footwear begins...
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I haven't posted it yet because they're not done, but I've made my own turnshoes, and they feel so much better than any mass produced shoe I've bought that pretends to be medieval. It's a nice intro to leatherwork as well. I will write up a thread when I've got them done.
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I still have some left-over Amazon gift card cash, so I think I might nab one of those books you suggested. I'm almost a smart guy, I'm sure I could figure it out. I have so many darned projects planned, who knows when I'll actually get around to it. ::) At least I have my VL shoes to hold me for a while.
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Ok so im talking to nate and he says he apoligizes but he does not know of what you speak. He says he thought it was his own original joke to mess with people at renfaires. Like they see a nice kit look down and comment on footware choice.
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I actually enjoy wearing sneakers at my nearby renfaire as a joke.
I just noticed your quote Nate, what a fantastically obscure reference :) I bet not many people get it without looking it up, but I just started over again after level 56, so it's fresh in my mind.
And I thought I had something special. Tell me, do you by chance reference wow death knight? Even so I don't understand, do tell
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Actually I was talking about this:
"Legends don't burn down vilages"
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Actually I was talking about this:
"Legends don't burn down vilages"
Don't get me started. I won't be able to stop talking about it lol (in a good way)
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I haven't posted it yet because they're not done, but I've made my own turnshoes, and they feel so much better than any mass produced shoe I've bought that pretends to be medieval. It's a nice intro to leatherwork as well. I will write up a thread when I've got them done.
(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/e/9/3/0/11971149651128278948david_benjamin_Hammer.svg)
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lols... the dye is drying as we speak!!
I haven't posted it yet because they're not done, but I've made my own turnshoes, and they feel so much better than any mass produced shoe I've bought that pretends to be medieval. It's a nice intro to leatherwork as well. I will write up a thread when I've got them done.
(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/e/9/3/0/11971149651128278948david_benjamin_Hammer.svg)
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Actually I was talking about this:
"Legends don't burn down vilages"
Oh! That makes sense. Love skyrim. Let's try not to go off subject tho, elder scrolls can be... Chat worthy
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The dreaded banhammer! Hurry and post those pics, Sir Ian! lol
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Sir Wolf, a FARB hammer as the ban hammer?? I feel a PROPER medieval ban hammer looming above him...... ;)
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For the combat environment (for us 99% of the time it is on grass) I swear by my G.D.F.B. high boots with hob nails, perfect.
http://www.getdressedforbattle.co.uk/acatalog/Side-Laced-calf-Length-Boot--High--to-Late-Medieval--SH_31230105.html#SID=58 (http://www.getdressedforbattle.co.uk/acatalog/Side-Laced-calf-Length-Boot--High--to-Late-Medieval--SH_31230105.html#SID=58)
For posing around in posh kit I want to get myself a pair of pointed court shoes, poulaines, with matching pattens.
http://archive.museumoflondon.org.uk/medieval/About+Medieval+London/ (http://archive.museumoflondon.org.uk/medieval/About+Medieval+London/)
As Ian says, I would have thought these would have had quite soft soles.
Some nice footwear here,
http://www.medievaldesign.com/eng-prodotti.asp?form_chiave=24 (http://www.medievaldesign.com/eng-prodotti.asp?form_chiave=24)
G.
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I found a few cool options that they claim to be handmade. I wonder if it is good enough for LH. The prices are pretty good considering....
https://www.etsy.com/listing/91921010/14th-century-front-laced-handmade?ref=favs_view_2 (https://www.etsy.com/listing/91921010/14th-century-front-laced-handmade?ref=favs_view_2)
https://www.etsy.com/listing/113252008/margate-medieval-style-handmade-leather?ref=favs_view_1 (https://www.etsy.com/listing/113252008/margate-medieval-style-handmade-leather?ref=favs_view_1)
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https://www.etsy.com/listing/91921010/14th-century-front-laced-handmade?ref=favs_view_2 (https://www.etsy.com/listing/91921010/14th-century-front-laced-handmade?ref=favs_view_2)
not period leather. its chrome tanned. but it will work in some circles and most don't know the difference. the overall appearance isn't bad, but the toe should be pointed. rounded shoes are more "dark aged". hmm just noticed the other views. the bottom's should be thicker and the sewing should go at a 45% angle thru the bottom sides and straight thru the sides. then flipped.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/113252008/margate-medieval-style-handmade-leather?ref=favs_view_1 (https://www.etsy.com/listing/113252008/margate-medieval-style-handmade-leather?ref=favs_view_1)
again not bad but wrong leather and way to thin of a sole.
yikes, for that price you should get better.
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Hmm, my thanks Sir Wolf...this is why I post on here before I buy anything :)
Sir Ian, those pictures?
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I haven't bothered to punch the lacing holes yet, so they're still sitting there dyed and oiled waiting to be finished.
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How hard was it to actually do? After I get my Corrazina and splinted armor all leathered up I might hunt down the appropriate type of leather and sew me up a pair...