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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Nuke on 2014-01-29, 18:07:16
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Hello everyone,
I'm just getting into chain mail and want to create armor authentic to the period (1000 to 1100 - England). I was going to create my own riveted chain mail... What is your opinion on buying the Indian stuff? to make it will take me thousands of hours and while I might still do that, I have a wife, kids, and many projects here on the farm to do first... Any other mail out there that is riveted and good quality? Also I was thinking of going with stainless or galvanized rather than the plain steel (which will end up rusting). I'm giving up some authenticity for armor that should last my lifetime...
Any comments or suggestions welcomed.
Nuke
PS. I'm in Colorado if anyone else here is in the area.
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I have riveted stainless, and it's great. The extra cost is worth it to not have to deal with cleaning rust off tiny rings.
I believe earlier periods were wedge riveted rings and not pin riveted. That increases the cost more, but it is a minor detail. All depends on what you're looking for specifically.
IceFalcon here in the US is a great source for stainless mail. Kult of Athena has mail as well, probably stainless; I've only bought mild from them. I believe both still source their mail from India. The shipping is much cheaper since it is already stateside, not to mention faster.
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welcome!
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What kind of kit are you going for? What country?
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I assume your going for full body maille with a surcoat?
Norman knight or crusader?
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Yes. Normal knight.
knee-length mail hauberks with elbow-length sleeves, split at front and rear, conical helmets with a nasal bar, and leather or padded cloth greaves. mail stockings to protect their legs and feet. kite-shaped shield (paint decorated) Norman sword.
Anything I have left out? I haven't researched the undergarments yet... Very thick materials I would suspect?..
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You covered most of it.
The under padding for the main hauberk is called a gambeson.
You'll need one that follows the shape of your hauberk.
Idk were to buy a knee length hauberk, I'm sure one of the knights could aid you with that.
Here this website has a decent selection of gambeson's.
It's also were I bought mine.
http://medievalcollectibles.com/c-12-arming-wear.aspx (http://medievalcollectibles.com/c-12-arming-wear.aspx)
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You covered most of it.
The under padding for the main hauberk is called a gambeson.
You'll need one that follows the shape of your hauberk.
Idk were to buy a knee length hauberk, I'm sure one of the knights could aid you with that.
Here this website has a decent selection of gambeson's.
It's also were I bought mine.
http://medievalcollectibles.com/c-12-arming-wear.aspx (http://medievalcollectibles.com/c-12-arming-wear.aspx)
He can but he should buy a time appropriate gambeson. You can actually go to the links on the forum and explore the different sites. Or you can make your own if you want one that fits perfectly and is sure to be time appropriate! Allbeststuff.com has good quality, cheap, indian made armor maille. The only catch is the shipping. Darksword-armory.com and Albion-Swords has great sword selections that are fine and hardy.
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I love me my stainless welded mail from Master Knuut. When I go for a riveted byrnie I'm just going to buy it.
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I believe maille leggings wouldn't be appropriate for the average Norman knight. Only King Harold and Duke William are depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry as wearing maille leggings. Additionally, though gamebsons can be documented to as early as the late 10th century, they didn't become widespread until the 13th century. To be more representative, I'd skip the gambeson and maille leggings.
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That's true, the Norman knights generally just had somewhat longer hauberks to cover the legs, if I recall correctly.
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That's true, the Norman knights generally just had somewhat longer hauberks to cover the legs, if I recall correctly.
I read they may have been ankle length. Then they opened them down the center more to make horse riding more easily done
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Ankle length seems a bit of an exaggeration. The vast majority of soldiers in mail in the Tapestry and other contemporary sources are shown with knee length hauberks with elbow length sleeves and integral coifs.
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Ankle length would be a lot of material flopping around while on horseback, beating the poor horse mid-gallop I should think. That's not to say there was no such thing, but I wouldn't think it a viable option for a mounted knight or man-at-arms. Seeing as maille wasn't an item that every warrior could afford, especially during the 11th and 12th centuries, I don't know that an infantryman would have such a long hauberk either.
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I do seem to recall accounts of ankle length hauberks — was it Harald Hardrada's hauberk "Emma" that was suppose to be that long? I don't remember. — but you know how tough guys like to exaggerate. ;) I'd say somewhere just below the knee would be more reasonable and practical for a long 'berk.
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Hardrada rode to battle, but he did not fight mounted, is that not so?
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That's true, the Norman knights generally just had somewhat longer hauberks to cover the legs, if I recall correctly.
I read they may have been ankle length. Then they opened them down the center more to make horse riding more easily done
Are you sure you aren't thinking of surcoats? Early surcoats, particularly crusaders, were down to their ankles. I've not seen hauberks further than roughly knee length, and chausses seem to be the norm.
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Not sure how historical you're wanting to shoot for, but pin riveted maille is early medieval, and wedge riveted is late medieval. If you're not as discerning, my opinion is that wedge riveted is smoother and easier on the fabric arming garments and gets stuck and caught less often.
And if you are making a riveted hauberk by hand, you have my admiration.
Scott
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That's true, the Norman knights generally just had somewhat longer hauberks to cover the legs, if I recall correctly.
I read they may have been ankle length. Then they opened them down the center more to make horse riding more easily done
Are you sure you aren't thinking of surcoats? Early surcoats, particularly crusaders, were down to their ankles. I've not seen hauberks further than roughly knee length, and chausses seem to be the norm.
Nay, I was reading a history book on knights. I have 2 that just say knights on the cover. One I find to bentos source material, tho the other seems to be more for those new on the subject of knights.
The one that is for the newer oddly enough mentioned the ankle length hauberk. But then it did say they made hauberk a shorter. So if it did exist it may have been extremely brief, and in popular
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Does the books cite any sources for that particular statement?
Be wary of books not written by academics, especially books with uncited sources (by cited I mean end notes, not just a bibliography).
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No it didn't. I was looking through the book here and there, everywhere and couldn't relocate. I'll stumble upon it soon enough. Plus history can be distracting at times.
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Crusader era 1200-1300 maille: Would round ring or flat ring be more applicable for dome riveted historical accuracy??
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I'm not an expert on the subject, but I believe alternating riveted rings and solid flat rings is appropriate for pretty much the entire period from 300AD until about 1450 when all riveted became the norm. I think in every picture of historical maille I've ever seen, from roman lorica hamata of 300AD to the 15th century, the riveted rings are round regardless of what type of rivet was used. Also I think the ring diameter of historical maille tends to be smaller than 9mm, and historical maille doesn't have the machine-like consistance of wire and ring diameters of modern reproductions. Of course historical maille is scarce today, because it was re-used and re-used until it was unservicable or until the 15th century when a nice haubergeon would be cut apart into voiders and standards etc. and continue to be re-used some more. That very nature of re-use makes even historical maille rather unreliable as a true guide to history. When rings get replaced, sometimes they are different size and/or different materials. You can see a LOT of pictures of actual historical maille here:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29331&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29331&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
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Hehehe.
I found a site with a list of links to historical finds of mail. Many of them at non alternating.
I just ordered a Hauberk that's non alternating riveted.
It's pretty interesting
http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,3013.msg46013.html#msg46013 (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,3013.msg46013.html#msg46013)
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I believe maille leggings wouldn't be appropriate for the average Norman knight. Only King Harold and Duke William are depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry as wearing maille leggings. Additionally, though gamebsons can be documented to as early as the late 10th century, they didn't become widespread until the 13th century. To be more representative, I'd skip the gambeson and maille leggings.
I disagree about the gambeson in that I wouldn't "skip it". Having worn heavy gauge hauberks over just thin under clothing I can tell you it is most uncomfortable after a few hours. Even a thin gambeson can make all the difference- you don't see the really thick ones until the 13th C but you don't necessarily need one unless you're going to fight in it and are worried about blunt force trauma. Unless you're going for a full custom piece, a lot of off-the-rack gambesons won't run you much more than $149, give or take. Some are better than others, of course...my last one wasn't a historically accurate design, but it was custom-made for me and I think I paid that much or slightly more, but it included shipping from Ukraine (which was just bananas to me).
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KoA has some off-the-rack gambesons for under $100 now, by "Lord of Battles".
I echo what Sir William said, don't skip a gambeson. Mail without a gambeson is VERY poor protection; the padding is what amplifies mail's ability to protect. Without padding the only thing absorbing the blow is your skin and bones, and that doesn't work well with steel.
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Well if you intend on sparring, absolutely get yourself one. But if you're just doing living history for the mid 11th century, a gambeson would not be representative for the time period.
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Well if you intend on sparring, absolutely get yourself one. But if you're just doing living history for the mid 11th century, a gambeson would not be representative for the time period.
Do you have a source for this?
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I've come to understand that while gambesons do indeed date to the 10th century, their use was not widely adopted until the 13th century. While no specific sources come to mind, I've seen most historians agree that gambesons are not widely depicted in pictorial sources until the 13th century. It is possible for them to have been used, just not probable.
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thats just it, there are no sources for gamesons or aketons before the crusades. the site james barker had said the europeans looking at the sarasins wondering about their padded garments.
the roman version isn't padded, save maybe the shoulder area and there are no pics or surviving examples, we only have the writings.
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I've come to understand that while gambesons do indeed date to the 10th century, their use was not widely adopted until the 13th century. While no specific sources come to mind, I've seen most historians agree that gambesons are not widely depicted in pictorial sources until the 13th century. It is possible for them to have been used, just not probable.
You might find it uncomfortable not to wear a gambeson. I have worn my butted without one and it killed my neck and shoulders. The belt can only relieve so much.
thats just it, there are no sources for gamesons or aketons before the crusades. the site james barker had said the europeans looking at the sarasins wondering about their padded garments.
the roman version isn't padded, save maybe the shoulder area and there are no pics or surviving examples, we only have the writings.
History can be so mysterious some times, but that's half the fun.
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You might find it uncomfortable not to wear a gambeson.
We wouldn't be in this hobby if we were concerned about being comfortable.
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There's no might about it, it will be uncomfortable. As it is a hobby, one might become less enthusiastic about it if pain becomes something that must be considered for each outing. I'm just speaking from personal experience here.
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I've been to the hospital twice due to reenacting. It just takes dedication to history!!!
(At least we don't go so far as to have period correct dysentery).
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I hear you. That sort of brings to mind a particular jousting re-enactor who was of the mind that you hadn't really participated until you were sporting numerous 'armor bites' (his were due to ill-fitting armor not made specifically for him); I think dedication levels differ with the individual and it should be the goal that hospital visits be kept to a minimum for what we term a hobby. That said, you can be as armored as you like and still suffer injury- it does happen.
But we're talking about personal comfort- and I still see no reason to go w/out a gambeson simply because it wasn't in widespread use at the time; that it can be traced back that far is good enough for me. Obviously, ymmv.
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I say do what you like, if you find that you do not need one than don't get one. Just go forth with consideration that's all. You can always buy a gambeson if you need one. just don't tailor your mail to your exact body shape, so if you find that you need some padding to relieve the stress, you'll have room.
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They use real swords in reenacting don't they? Sign me up!
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I've been to the hospital twice due to reenacting. It just takes dedication to history!!!
(At least we don't go so far as to have period correct dysentery).
You have your standards, Sir Wolf has his. :D
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Well when Elliot visited this week with me I got to handle some of his "allbeststuff" maille. It's better quality than Icefalcon. It didnt scratch me at all nor tear threads in my gambeson. Also the flat punched rings all face ONE way so it doesnt look as uneven. My battlemerchant and GDFB maille doesnt even do that. Only complaint is it isnt as tailored as my self tailored hauberk. I may just pick one hauberk with integrated mittens and coif one day just for 12th century reenacting when I can. The rivets on the inside stick out only a little bit and they're peened to not be sharp either. It's also quite tough stuff and could bet it could stop a sharp weapon honestly.
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Well when Elliot visited this week with me I got to handle some of his "allbeststuff" maille. It's better quality than Icefalcon. It didnt scratch me at all nor tear threads in my gambeson. Also the flat punched rings all face ONE way so it doesnt look as uneven. My battlemerchant and GDFB maille doesnt even do that. Only complaint is it isnt as tailored as my self tailored hauberk. I may just pick one hauberk with integrated mittens and coif one day just for 12th century reenacting when I can. The rivets on the inside stick out only a little bit and they're peened to not be sharp either. It's also quite tough stuff and could bet it could stop a sharp weapon honestly.
I am glad to hear that! I definitely will be ordering my aventail from them then...and he does tailor stuff if you ask him to...or so I think I read that somewhere...
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http://allbeststuff.com/c-medieval-chainmail-armor/c-Chain-Mail-Camail/9-mm-Flat-Washer-Camail-with-helmet-extensions (http://allbeststuff.com/c-medieval-chainmail-armor/c-Chain-Mail-Camail/9-mm-Flat-Washer-Camail-with-helmet-extensions)
Does this mean I won't have to tailor it to have it properly attach to a bascinet? It looks like it comes with that round shape in the front for your face...Sir Ian, you may never have to tailor maile again! :)
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http://allbeststuff.com/c-medieval-chainmail-armor/c-Chain-Mail-Camail/9-mm-Flat-Washer-Camail-with-helmet-extensions (http://allbeststuff.com/c-medieval-chainmail-armor/c-Chain-Mail-Camail/9-mm-Flat-Washer-Camail-with-helmet-extensions)
Does this mean I won't have to tailor it to have it properly attach to a bascinet? It looks like it comes with that round shape in the front for your face...Sir Ian, you may never have to tailor maile again! :)
Unless it happens to exactly fit your bascinet, it will require tailoring, or it will bunch up in places or be stretched in places etc. The nice thing with that is it would require less tailoring, because you maybe could cut off the face triangles and attach them elsewhere instead of building them from scratch, but no maille goes un-tailored for the correct fit unless you happen to be very lucky.
Plus, those triangles are wrong. They should be right triangles to give the appropriate effect. And they probably need to be a lot taller, see Mac's drawing here:
(http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=16379)
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I concur. Plus, it's probably the easiest maille tailoring you'll ever do.
That does not mean it will be easy, BTW :)
Scott
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I'm about to take the plunge and make a purchase at Custom Chainmail (http://www.customchainmail.com/). I saw him advertising over on the AA, and I've emailed back and forth a couple times. He does shirts to custom measurements, which is a really nice feature. I'm going to replace my pin riveted franken-haubergeon with a wedge riveted more fitted version. I'll be sure to let everyone know how it goes.
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I'm sure you'll be more satisfied with wedge riveted maille, it's so much smoother and doesnt tear gambesons up nearly so easily. Just looked at their stuff and they do offer it in a 38 inch chest which is my chest size though I aint making anymore purchases with maille as I already have a tailored hauberk.
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I'm about to take the plunge and make a purchase at Custom Chainmail (http://www.customchainmail.com/). I saw him advertising over on the AA, and I've emailed back and forth a couple times. He does shirts to custom measurements, which is a really nice feature. I'm going to replace my pin riveted franken-haubergeon with a wedge riveted more fitted version. I'll be sure to let everyone know how it goes.
Round or Flat ring?
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Round or Flat ring?
I'm not even sure they offer round, but this order will be flat, fully riveted. Haubergeon length on the torso with long sleeves so that it fully covers the inside of the elbow and tucks in to my vambrace as per the effigies.