ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: RackThor on 2013-04-08, 06:59:07
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I am gathering opinions for a paper I intend to write here in the near future for my final history paper for college. I may be posting more polls later with different weapons, but for now please vote based on what is here.
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#1)What is a "1700's Standard Longsword"?
#2)Why rapier & Scimitar being specific, but "Polearms" are general?
#3)Two-handed sword? Do you mean a greatsword or an Epée de Guerre?
#4)Why no axe, mace, or sword & shield option?
#5) What are we facing? Is this a war or duel?
#6) Are we armoured?
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Depends on what my opponent chooses; as Thorsteinn pointed out, some of the choices are a bit ambiguous- I too have never heard of a 1700s standard longsword, as that would be 18th Century and as far as I can recall, the transition to smaller, slimmer swords had already begun taking place. Polearms, there are quite a few and while the manner in which they are used is similar, it isn't exactly the same- they all have their strengths and few weaknesses.
Also, is this a one-on-one type of situation, or a mass melee between opposing forces? Are we talking tournament-style of play, or actual warfare? The situation would dictate the weaponry I'd choose, not to mention giving my opponent first choice so that I may choose a suitable foil.
What's your thesis going to cover?
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forgive me for my ambiguity. However these were the choices I was handed to ask to you gentlemen. While I agree a 15th century German long sword would be more specific I am not allowed to give you such an option at the moment. (in other words I am gathering data on those who like you guys want more information as well as those who just vote amongst people who show real intrest in the topic above) so treat it kind of like a test.
I am able to clarify that it is a one on one situation. Duel to the death.
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#1)What is a "1700's Standard Longsword"?
#2)Why rapier & Scimitar being specific, but "Polearms" are general?
#3)Two-handed sword? Do you mean a greatsword or an Epée de Guerre?
#4)Why no axe, mace, or sword & shield option?
#5) What are we facing? Is this a war or duel?
#6) Are we armoured?
Yes you are wearing a protection of your choice.
The polls later on will change and be more specific as the data I am allowed to collect and my freedom of questions begins to become more available
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As I'm not a fan of longsword techniques, I chose the rapier and the polearm.
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OK, then if I'm unsure of what I'm facing, and it's a fight to the death (On foot I'm assuming), and I'm not allowed a shield. Then full plate with a pole-axe please. It's not my best form by far, but I don't want to have to worry about my weapons effectiveness nor my protection.
My choices will change depending upon what my opponent is wearing, what I'm allowed to wear, and what weapons we're using, whether we're ahorse, and the terrain.
Whats a good choice in a Holmganga is a poor one in a French Judicial Duel, not allowed in a German one, or unfamiliar to the Hero's of Antiquity.
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There isn't much a polearm & two-handed sword won't solve. :D
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I'd prefer a singlehander and round shield but that wasn't one of the choices.
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I. Can't. Help. IT!!! ;D
Weapon Of Choice - Fatboy Slim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMZwZiU0kKs#)
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As I don’t have full plate armor I will have to settle for my transitional and a poleaxe or longsword.
Lol Thorsteinn is you hadn’t posted that video then I would have! ;D
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My favorites have always been either spears or two handed swords. My current battle ready sword is a heavy Grosse-Messer.
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I am a fan of Shields, a longsword or mace, perhaps a flail. but mostly a longsword and shield. also a hand and a half or bastard sword and heavy gauntlets work well. I frequently use the shield and sword combo, trapping and shield attacks abound! With proper gauntlets I do not fear grabbing an opponents weapon.
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Glaive or pole arm.....maybe even a great axe!!!!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Give me a bo staff, I'm taking you down.
Give me a longsword, I'm taking your head.
Give me a spear, I have something to put your head on.
Any questions?? ;D
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Lord Dane I would much wish to train with you, western stave use is unknown to me , only eastern techniques.
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Lord Dane I would much wish to train with you, western stave use is unknown to me , only eastern techniques.
Little far from Wisconsin. I studied both Eastern and Western martial arts style(s) and took what I like from each for both philosophy and practicality. Aikido and Ed Parker's Kempo integrate well with my personal tastes but that's just me. Mix it with some Gracie style Ju Jitsu and grappling..... you got my preference for how to use your body for effective fighting.
Always use what works best for what you are up against. Weapons training is pointless if you can't use what you already have naturally. Mind, body, and then skill. In every case, you need to show discipline and a willingness to listen and show good sense. Can't take the stupid out of ignorance or instill rationality into senseless people. Be open and receptive always and share what you know. Students better themselves by being such and instructors self-improve by doing the same.
Western style / Eastern style with bo staff is no different to me. You turn that bo staff into an edged weapon and you'll see much difference in technique to coincide.
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This was an excellent topic to read through.
First to the main question of the topic:
I selected "rapier" and "two-handed sword" as my choices given what was offered.
Rapier - because ever since reading, then seeing "The Three Musketeers" and the black and white "Zorro" on Disney Channel growing up, I took it upon myself to learn rapier and I'm always amazed at how little I know.
"two-handed sword" was an easy one, as a claidheamh mor was placed into my hands at the ripe old age of six! My grandmother (maiden name Kearney, her mother, Wallace) felt that to be a proper boy and understand concentration, control, and get out physical angst, nothing was better than a claymore on a tire pell!
My question back: what else are you looking for in this paper, are you trying to show them (the academie) what you have learned, or are you trying to grow and learn through this paper? As a fellow scholar (masters emphasis in experimental archaeology) please by all means share what you're working on when you are able! Also, I enjoyed the lack of options and the vagueness of the poll. It made it very hard, and one that required concentration. I have recently been spending most of my time either with iaido or working on my single sword and shield technique, so seeing neither (especially the sword and shield) on that poll really threw me for a loop as well.
Also, in my studies of anthropology, I can help you in one thing:
we are all human, and everything follows a set function, and in my studies, both martially and scholarly, no set martial art or set type of "warrior" is better than another. They all have their individual merits and strengths, without any easily perceived weaknesses when viewing a master at their given trade. Even if you are only working in a weapon form within the SCA, or just through books, or eastern martial arts, all of that can then be applied to your own "art" within it. As one of my sifu's once said "a belt is to hold your pants up, if you're foolish enough not to tie them."
Good luck on your paper
YIS
B. Patricius
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I wanted to thank everyone for your participation, and your reply's are more data that i can compile.
Now I would like to hear about your favored long range battle set ups. What do you wear, use, and what is it that makes you more apt to use this combination rather than others?
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Depends on what you consider long range. So here is what I think.
1) Nothing beats a good war horse with armor and armored rider. Weapons vary for me on this category, I love polish sabers as I grew up with them. So that and a lance and a few estock(s).
2) If you mean on foot, my preferred long range kit (excluding projectiles) is rather a close range kit. A two-handed sword, and latter plate armors. For an earlier kit I would settle for riveted chain and a Danish axe.
3) Projectiles are a bit too complicated to discuss in my opinion, as many were designed to be used in a unit in a military mind set.
my two cents, (though do to recent inflation are probably worth 1/2 that lol)
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"favored long range battle set ups"
Well if I get that large a playground to set up in I'll take...
The USS Iowa with modern refurbishments and air cover.
(http://img4.itiexue.net/1306/13061884.jpg)
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"favored long range battle set ups"
Well if I get that large a playground to set up in I'll take...
The USS Iowa with modern refurbishments and air cover.
LMAO ;D I was thinking of an A-10, Kiowa, or Harrier that can support me long range and danger close myself at first!
I really don't know what to think of for "in-period" though... a good horse, trebuchet, ballista, etc... but beyond that, in period, nothing for me is better than being up close and personal with a sword.
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that is so cool.
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RackThor, what did you mean by Favored long range battle set-ups?
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Long Range Clarification: You are out of hand to hand combat range. Therefore you must resort to weapons that either use projectiles, or can be used as a projectile.
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Long Range Clarification: You are out of hand to hand combat range. Therefore you must resort to weapons that either use projectiles, or can be used as a projectile.
As a single combatant? Longbow
As a group of combatants? Longbows :D
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Long Range Clarification: You are out of hand to hand combat range. Therefore you must resort to weapons that either use projectiles, or can be used as a projectile.
My choice still works as no time period or tech range has been chosen. Tomahawk missile anyone? :)
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Long Range Clarification: You are out of hand to hand combat range. Therefore you must resort to weapons that either use projectiles, or can be used as a projectile.
As a single combatant? Longbow
As a group of combatants? Longbows :D
QFT definitely, in period at least ;D, i'd go for the longbows.
Beyond that, Aegis systems are definitely nice 8)
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I am using the paper as a thesis on how each type of weapon choice and situation causes a change in someones style, choices, and I am learning from the paper as well. At the heart of it is me watching people play a game of chess, and how their game changes based on the playing field.
This was an excellent topic to read through.
First to the main question of the topic:
I selected "rapier" and "two-handed sword" as my choices given what was offered.
Rapier - because ever since reading, then seeing "The Three Musketeers" and the black and white "Zorro" on Disney Channel growing up, I took it upon myself to learn rapier and I'm always amazed at how little I know.
"two-handed sword" was an easy one, as a claidheamh mor was placed into my hands at the ripe old age of six! My grandmother (maiden name Kearney, her mother, Wallace) felt that to be a proper boy and understand concentration, control, and get out physical angst, nothing was better than a claymore on a tire pell!
My question back: what else are you looking for in this paper, are you trying to show them (the academie) what you have learned, or are you trying to grow and learn through this paper? As a fellow scholar (masters emphasis in experimental archaeology) please by all means share what you're working on when you are able! Also, I enjoyed the lack of options and the vagueness of the poll. It made it very hard, and one that required concentration. I have recently been spending most of my time either with iaido or working on my single sword and shield technique, so seeing neither (especially the sword and shield) on that poll really threw me for a loop as well.
Also, in my studies of anthropology, I can help you in one thing:
we are all human, and everything follows a set function, and in my studies, both martially and scholarly, no set martial art or set type of "warrior" is better than another. They all have their individual merits and strengths, without any easily perceived weaknesses when viewing a master at their given trade. Even if you are only working in a weapon form within the SCA, or just through books, or eastern martial arts, all of that can then be applied to your own "art" within it. As one of my sifu's once said "a belt is to hold your pants up, if you're foolish enough not to tie them."
Good luck on your paper
YIS
B. Patricius
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Your right, there is no time period restrictions. I am just wanting to see your preference, however I guess I should make it to were it needs to be a weapon you KNOW how to use.
Long Range Clarification: You are out of hand to hand combat range. Therefore you must resort to weapons that either use projectiles, or can be used as a projectile.
My choice still works as no time period or tech range has been chosen. Tomahawk missile anyone? :)
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Your right, there is no time period restrictions. I am just wanting to see your preference, however I guess I should make it to were it needs to be a weapon you KNOW how to use.
I "know how to use"... and any time-period...
FNH 249 PARA, Kimber 1911, and a Desert Tactical Arms SRS Rifle in .338 lapua, and yes, I'm proficient in all. ;) Beyond that, a radio comms and throat mic is nice too, to be able to get ahold of the boys that can use the A-10, Kiowa, and Harrier ;)
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The only tool I'd really need would be a half decent bush knife, though a nice sword could also come in handy ;)
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Your right, there is no time period restrictions. I am just wanting to see your preference, however I guess I should make it to were it needs to be a weapon you KNOW how to use.
OK, I'm going to assume man portable individual weapon here:
Pregunpowder? Longbow. I'm not bad with one. It was not surpassed as a mankiller till after rifles came about, has a good range and rate of fire, and multiple ammo options. Wearing a byrnie, CoP, greaves, Bacinet + aventail, and vambraces. With a sword, dagger, & buckler to back me.
Modern? AK-47 & bayonet. I'm decent with one. The round hits hard, the range is not longer than I can make use of, and the weapon is reliable as all getout. With a good armoured jacket, helm, and other 1st world battlefield kit. and a S&W XD .45ACP for backup.
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bah i hate ak's they feel all like pig metal in my hands lol
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Rocket-powered chainsaw launcher with a longsword bayonet
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laptop with satellite guided smart missiles and a bunker. for the win.
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bah i hate ak's they feel all like pig metal in my hands lol
Yeah, it's hard to fault them for reliability, but I don't care for the feel either. The AR is much more comfortable, and modular. :)
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My preferred long range solution. 24 Tubes of Trident II missiles, each with multiple warheads. A single unit capable of quite literally extinction level events, yet preventing global chaos on a daily basis :)
(http://www.stratcom.mil/images/galleries/original/DN-SD-00-03123.jpg)
Oh, and I'll settle the old argument once and for all. AR > AK, there done. ;)
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i knew Sir Ian likes seamen
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Rocket-powered chainsaw launcher with a longsword bayonet
LMAO ;D that's awesome!
And I'll second Sir Ian's, and Thorstein's responses. All are exceptionally good. I do like crossbows myself because of their "look" but you can't go wrong with a good longbow in capable hands.
Thorstein, I do love that Springfield XD, I remember when she first came out and I got to put one through its paces. I'm just an external hammer man myself, so I stick with an H&K.
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the H&K USP is the smoothest stock trigger and cleanest break of any pistol I've ever fired... BUT, I've really come to love striker fired pistols. I'm a Glock man I guess, but I'm in the market for an M&P right now. The XD's being made in Croatia kinda bothers me for some reason :)
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Check out the M&P before you go for it Ian. I've heard some mixed reviews from gun owners and gunshops that carry it with disgruntled customers. Just a head's up! 8) I personally think Smith&Wesson isn't what it once was, but still is one of the better options out there. They're all good, and do what they need to do. Just check ahead of time. Some I hear are amazing and do exactly what they are supposed to, others are lemons. I think it's more a quality control issue rather than the technology or design itself.
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Check out the M&P before you go for it Ian. I've heard some mixed reviews from gun owners and gunshops that carry it with disgruntled customers. Just a head's up! 8) I personally think Smith&Wesson isn't what it once was, but still is one of the better options out there. They're all good, and do what they need to do. Just check ahead of time. Some I hear are amazing and do exactly what they are supposed to, others are lemons. I think it's more a quality control issue rather than the technology or design itself.
S&W had some similar QA issues with their M&P rifles a while back. Word on the street is they've since corrected the issues, but I'm sure there are still some crappy ones out there. I love Glock, I'm just in the mood for something a little different this time 'round.
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I don't have any striker pistols currently, though my wife has one. So far my favorite configuration is on the Sig Sauers: an external hammer with a de-cocking lever instead of a manual safety.
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A simple longsword was my vote, although, as was said, the term 'longsword' is a bit vague....
I shot an AR-15 for the first time a couple weeks ago. It's hard not to fall in love with them. My Ruger P89 was jealous....
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I don't have any striker pistols currently, though my wife has one. So far my favorite configuration is on the Sig Sauers: an external hammer with a de-cocking lever instead of a manual safety.
Seconded. Much like Ian loves Glock, I prefer SIG Sauer. Love their design & functionality. My P229R & SP2022 are perfect. :)
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P229R & SP2022 are perfect. :)
I'm envious of the rail. I don't think that was an option yet when I bought mine.
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welp time to head to the gun store!
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Nah, it's OK. If I changed anything, it wouldn't fit in the holster anymore. :)
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I think KC & Me can work out something in mutual exchange for a slight modification to his SIG. Shhhh. I'm an armourer. ;) A picatanny rail would not make you need to change holster but adding a 'permanent accessory' on to it would if you expected to holster a laser, light, or such.
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We finally got rid of that horrible Beretta M9, and started deploying with Sig P226's which was great. Sigs are awesome, just a little overpriced. Luckily sig does a good .mil discount if you buy from a master sig dealer.
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We finally got rid of that horrible Beretta M9, and started deploying with Sig P226's which was great. Sigs are awesome, just a little overpriced. Luckily sig does a good .mil discount if you buy from a master sig dealer.
I've shot 1911's since I could walk. In basic training, yeah, I got that cut on my hand from the M9. I hate that thing. Going from the 1911's trigger to that thing was a deep learning curve. I do love the Sigs too, I have a P238 I continually carry on me. But for full frame, I do love the H&K.45. I totally understand where Sir Edward is coming from, I love manual decocks and safeties.
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I'm wondering how different the M9 is from the civilian 92FS. I have one of the latter, and have never had any problems with it. In fact, I think it's the only semi-auto I have that has never jammed on me.
Having said that, I fell in love with the 1911 after finally getting one, and between that and my Sig, I have my needs mostly covered. Recently added a Walther PPK/S as a more concealable option though. And it's the James Bond gun. :)
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Walther PPK/S are great guns! My buddy also has a Walther P-22 lol such a fun plinker since it shoots 22lr.
The M9, as a whole is a very good package. It's just the feel of it, from a 1911 that had me all up in arms about it. The trigger pull, and grip just felt "wrong." Beyond that, a buddy of mine, a Marine who spent time in the dustbowl said it was terrible because of its unique slide. It'd get crud and grime into its slide within the first 20 seconds out. I believe that is the main bane of that weapon, so at home, it's ok.
The H&K mk23/USP felt enough like a 1911 that it made it easier for me to adapt to, and after ten years of using them, I'm sold on those bricks. But still, it's the familiarity, like in all things, that has me sold on it. Within my first day, I could field strip it, clean it, and get her back together pretty much blindfolded because it was so similar to the 1911. The catch, latch, saftey, even the barrel, are all very similar to 1911s.
Gotta say though, this is hands down my favorite pistol of all time:
(http://media-cache-ak1.pinimg.com/550x/9f/81/c3/9f81c33c98d38e3a0f1a6e3744789a1e.jpg) with a cartridge conversion, nothing is better to me.
I like the pocket models too, even though they're small in caliber, I'm pretty sure at 5 feet the perp would still count it. After seeing what I've seen a 22lr do, I'll put faith in a .32 at defense ranges. It helps to be able to aim too ;)
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is that the 58 army? i have a 51 navy and a 60 new army
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is that the 58 army? i have a 51 navy and a 60 new army
close enough ;)
It's actually an original Remington "Old Model" or "Second Model" which was produced shortly after the Beals. Most "58 Army" replicas today replicate the "New Model" which follows this one. Basically the cylinder on this one is way easier to remove and replace than the other two, which apparently the Union Army didn't like, they were afraid of cavalrymen losing cylinders, so they adapted it again to Union specifications, which created the New Model Army.
Here's one of the best online resources I've found for a quick review of the Remington Revolvers: http://armscollectors.com/mgs/an_army_and_two_navies_pt_1.htm (http://armscollectors.com/mgs/an_army_and_two_navies_pt_1.htm)
basically I like the "Old Model" because of the quick change cylinder, and the high spur hammer. Also, it may just be me, but she balances better too.
and yes, medieval re-enactment is only one of my nerdisms ;)
I too own Colt 51 navies and a couple 60 armies as well.
(http://media-cache-ec4.pinimg.com/550x/52/a6/0c/52a60cefad2326bbc70a87a0b3d76cb8.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ak1.pinimg.com/550x/8e/db/46/8edb46d53756a8b97ef5d070f343a3e1.jpg) these aren't mine, again the FUBAR with the camera, but these are very similar to mine. My Colt Navies are second generation and class b engraved... sexy supermodels! 8)
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That one on the bottom is dead sexy.
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That one on the bottom is dead sexy.
I wholeheartedly agree. It was the first model of the Colt Army. Back in the day, the fluted cylinder caused cracks so they went to a full cylinder. It's nice to see Uberti is replicating it now, and its metal is far stronger. The other weekend, in Lake Havasu I saw a gorgeous Colt "New" Navy, a 1861, which looks a lot like the Army but in .36. She had a 5 1/2" barrel and the fluted cylinder. Right now I'm trying to figure out a way to make my Army with that barrel length and a birdshead grip. That would be the epitome of sexiness. I love the Colt open tops, it's just the Remington is a far stronger and more reliable cap & ball, hence why she's my fave.
basically here's what I'm working on:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/Flashlights/2010_051022ruger0046.jpg) - good pic of the full barrel in comparison to the 5 1/2"
(http://www.uberti.com/firearms/images/1873_cattleman_birdshead_om_lg.jpg) the birdshead grip.
Ironically the birdshead grip is easy-peasy. Already got that taken care of, now it's getting brave enough to cut the barrel that the trick ;)
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That one on the bottom is dead sexy.
Agreed. I love the handle grips. Is the wood walnut?? It is very deep in finish & color.
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Lord Dane,
the grips originally on Italian clones are some sort of deep brown wood, but they aren't walnut. Something far cheaper. Then they stain them with a red hue and a urethane. I don't like it personally. The original Remington Old Model I have pictured does have walnut grips. Walnut, Cherry, Mahogany and Ebony are my favorite grips besides the synthetic ivories, but those depend on the manufacturer... some looks amazing and very real, others look like white plastic.