ModernChivalry.org

Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir Gerard de Rodes on 2013-03-16, 20:55:20

Title: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir Gerard de Rodes on 2013-03-16, 20:55:20
Just thought some of you may find this article about the effigies in the Temple Church in London interesting.
http://www.castlewales.com/mistaken_identity.html (http://www.castlewales.com/mistaken_identity.html)

G.
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-03-17, 01:10:45
Wow, it certainly does get complicated.
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-03-17, 05:00:58
Well, that was certainly a brain twister. She raises some very valid points, and also touched on something I wondered about - what does the crossed or uncrossed legs mean. At least we know our Marshal coat of arms is correct, even if we aren't sure the effigy is! :)
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir William on 2013-03-19, 21:10:21
William the Marshal died an excommunicate?  I had not read that anywhere else...given that he was buried as a Templar, that kind of knocks that notion to the ground doesn't it?
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir James A on 2013-03-19, 23:09:01
William the Marshal died an excommunicate?  I had not read that anywhere else...given that he was buried as a Templar, that kind of knocks that notion to the ground doesn't it?

I believe it was Sir Edward who said (upon the Book of Faces) that Marshal took the Templar vows on his death bed?
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-03-20, 01:53:41
Yes, I've read elsewhere that he had promised during his years in the holy land that he would one day take the Templar vows. On his deathbed, he finally chose to do so. This required relinquishing his marriage, and his wife agreed to let him go at that point. I hadn't heard anything him supposedly being excommunicated.
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir William on 2013-03-20, 18:02:35
Well, he was cursed by a Welsh bishop who probably argued for the Marshal's excommunication, but as Sir Edward said- I have not read anything that gives this notion weight.
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2013-03-21, 23:10:59
Quote
Well, he was cursed by a Welsh bishop who probably argued for the Marshal's excommunication, but as Sir Edward said- I have not read anything that gives this notion weight.

Quite funny that I am reading this post and I am re reading a book on Sir William Marshall.  Nope I did not come across any reference or record stating the Marshall being excommunicated. 

Quote
I've read elsewhere that he had promised during his years in the holy land that he would one day take the Templar vows. On his deathbed, he finally chose to do so. This required relinquishing his marriage, and his wife agreed to let him go at that point.

I read that and I was blown away at how understanding she was of her husband's wishes. 

But I do agree that the article does bring out the complications of identity.  However I can say that it does point out past mistakes and raises new questions. 
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir William on 2013-03-22, 13:38:21
Which book on the Marshal, Joshua?
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2013-03-22, 15:37:41
"William Marshal: Knight Errant, Baron, and Regent of England" by Sidney Painter.  I found this in the library if Kean University.  I was also able to find a copy of "William Marshal: The Flower of Chivalry" by Georges Duby.
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Hrolfr on 2013-03-28, 23:58:44
I have read somewhere that the (either) crossed or uncrossed legs indicated that the person the effigy was carved for either did or did not go on a Crusade.

Kinda foggy on which was either.
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir Wolf on 2013-03-29, 01:34:21
crossed legs means he has to forever hold his pee
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir Edward on 2013-03-29, 14:14:51
crossed legs means he has to forever hold his pee

(citation needed)



:)
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Sir William on 2013-03-29, 19:35:03
"William Marshal: Knight Errant, Baron, and Regent of England" by Sidney Painter.  I found this in the library if Kean University.  I was also able to find a copy of "William Marshal: The Flower of Chivalry" by Georges Duby.

I've read the Duby book, as well as Crouch's William Marshal: Knighthood, War and Chivalry, 1147-1219; but not Painter.  I'll have to check that out.
Title: Re: Mistaken identity
Post by: Joshua Santana on 2013-04-01, 23:48:19
Quote
I've read the Duby book, as well as Crouch's William Marshal: Knighthood, War and Chivalry, 1147-1219; but not Painter.  I'll have to check that out.

Excellent, there is good reason to like Duby's book.  I have yet to catch Crouch's book.  Painter's book is biographical and has good historical information in it.  It is a very good book that does justice to the legacy of Sir William Marshal.