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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Brian on 2013-02-09, 14:34:07
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After a year on backorder ‘By The Sword, Inc.’ finally sent me the Dome Riveting tool but the loose Dome riveted Flat Rings I had ordered
with it are still backordered.
SO if any of you fine gentlemen have and can spare some loose dome riveted rings for me to permanently close up the sleeves on my haubergeon I would be most grateful! :)
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I got a bunch of them, by GDFB as well as Icefalcon. Not sure if I am gonna use them either so maybe I can sell them, depends on what ones you want, I got a TON of the Icefalcon ones, like enough to last a while...
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i never did get any of that stuff. i wanted to, but knew i didn't have the patience
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I got a bunch of them, by GDFB as well as Icefalcon. Not sure if I am gonna use them either so maybe I can sell them, depends on what ones you want, I got a TON of the Icefalcon ones, like enough to last a while...
Sounds good to me Sir Ulrich! How much you want for oh say a 100 with dome rivets? I would prefer the flat rings if you have them and are willing to part with them. Either way they need to be the dome rivet otherwise it won't fit my tool. ;)
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Well the Icefalcon ones were more money but I'm not sure if they'll work with that riveting tool plus they're blackened and lighter gauge. Though my icefalcon riveting tool works with the GDFB rings. My GDFB ones were 22 bucks plus shipping for around 1000 rings they should match your hauberk perfectly if you got a GDFB hauberk. I haven't used any of them cept for like 10 of them. I'd be fine with a 10th of that plus shipping, prolly could fit in a small envelope and ziplock bag if you just want 100 rings out of the 1000 I have. They are flat rings and dome riveted so you should be fine. Money order via regular mail would be fine if thats how you want it.
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Sir Brian, if your riveting tool doesn't work with the rings, let me know; I have the Historic Enterprises, IceFalcon, and LWCM pliers ... we'll find one that works and get your haubergeon taken care of.
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I have tools and rings too, so between all of us, I think you'll be covered. :)
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All is well that ends well! I received the backordered rings today! :)
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All is well that ends well! I received the backordered rings today! :)
Huzzah!
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The tool works pretty well! I closed up a small gap in one armpit and will get the sleeves closed up little by little over the next few weeks. :)
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The tool works pretty well! I closed up a small gap in one armpit and will get the sleeves closed up little by little over the next few weeks. :)
Speaking of that specific location, I just got my new brass besagews. :) These will look nice when I paint them up.
Sir Brian, these are rather large ones. Do yours secure better by leather ties to your maille or fastened to your spaulders??
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pictures or you dont own them
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Sir Brian, these are rather large ones. Do yours secure better by leather ties to your maille or fastened to your spaulders??
I just have mine laced to my haubergeon. Just curious how ‘large’ is large? I believe mine are 5” in diameter. ???
pictures or you dont own them
Perhaps I'll take a picture of my 'armoring' bench and tools on Monday when I have off and can get more done on it! ;)
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Oh guess not then... 5" in diameter as well. Just the way they looked on my frame. They are not perfectly flat like rondels.
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Well here are some pictures of my 'improvised' armoring bench which affords me greater comfort for my back and the opportunity to watch/listen to the television while I work. The second picture is my sorted tool and material while the third is the obligatory dual pliers setup for removing the temporary butted links and closing the riveted links prior to riveting them. :)
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When I had the canopy bed, I put my quarter staff through the arms of the hauberk / haubergeon and let it hang from the top of the canopy to work from; as you do, so I can sit and watch TV at the same time. If it works, it works!
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I hang mine from a pole like that when I want to apply a liberal coat of gun oil on it which is what I'll do after I'm finished and ready to put it back in the sack. :)
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Yeah, I just spread mine out on a folding table in front of the TV. I used a 4-foot table from Office Depot.
I find that after hunching over it for any length of time, I tend to walk away with back-pain in the lower back. I hate that. I think it's worse than any beating my hands take from the pliers. :) Oh how we suffer for our art, no? :)
So you're working on sleeves right now?
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I finished one and I have all but 4" of the other one left to do. Working with riveted maille is a bit more tedious but still not that bad. :)
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Excellent. Yeah, it's only slightly worse. Mostly it's just a lot more time consuming.
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I can't wait to see the finished product. If it looks as good as I think it will, that might be the impetus I need to get going on mine.
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I can't wait to see the finished product. If it looks as good as I think it will, that might be the impetus I need to get going on mine.
Well it really isn't going to appear all that much different from when I had the sleeves tailored with the butted rings. :-\
In reality, the riveted rings just make the alterations more permanent and the seams pretty much undetectable.
SO, no more excuses you and get busy on yours! ;)
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I can't wait to see the finished product. If it looks as good as I think it will, that might be the impetus I need to get going on mine.
SO, no more excuses you and get busy on yours! ;)
Hear hear! :D
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LOL
Need the hauberk first. I decided my 'brightmail' needs to be retired, which is a shame since I only just recently found the matching coif for it. Ah well.
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I'd suggest the GDFB wedge riveted maille with solid rings if you wanna replace it. Only get dome riveted maille if you plan on either replacing your gambeson or are making it out of canvas or hemp canvas. Wedge riveted is closer in profile to historical dome riveted, plus with the rivet bump on the outside it will still look rather accurate. Unless you wanna get stainless then I would suggest the darkened stuff by icefalcon, I actually prefer regular steel maille simply because it tarnishes and looks closer to wrought iron than stainless or galvanized.
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Thank you, Ulrich, I'll definitely take all of that into consideration. I have looked at Icefalcon's maille at length...let me ask you because I cannot recall- how much tailoring did your hauberk require? I'm really wanting a good hauberk, I'm not going for anymore of that ebaY stuff- good, sturdy stuff but altogether built way too much for size ranges.
I'm considering this one:
(http://www.capapie.co.uk/image/cache/data/hauberk-500x500.png)
You can see that it'll need to be tailored, but I'm hoping not as much as my current one, the Bingo Wing extraordinaire as Sir Nathan coined it. lol
Also, it is somewhat lighter than the norm, weighing in at ~16lbs; my hauberk was 26lbs before I started removing maille from it; now it weighs in around 21lbs. I thought I might go for their haubergeon but they only do those with the dome/pin rivets, not wedged. Incidentally, the domed riveted shirts weigh more than the wedge riveted ones.
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Sir William, if you want to check out the IceFalcon maille, you can see it next time you're over. I've got the IceFalcon : fauld, voiders, haubergeon, hauberk and "stocking" closed chausses. I've also got a GDFB haubergeon that you could compare it with side by side if you want. All are pin riveted / 9mm.
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Sir James, I'll settle for your thoughts on each- what're your observations? How about the pricing between the two?
I also happen to like the C-a-P stuff because even with shipping it'll be less than $750 ($680 for the hauberk by itself) all told. Hmm...just found a similar one from Icefalcon for $595, your thoughts?
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/medium-chainmail-hauberk-ff8081811ba39277011cf67673e52581-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/medium-chainmail-hauberk-ff8081811ba39277011cf67673e52581-p.html)
That might not be what I'm looking for now that I look further...this appears to be of their pin-riveted lineup; if I'm going to spend that kind of money, I want a more historical presentation.
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The GDFB maille on KOA is actually even cheaper, at about 416 for a full hauberk. The sleeves do need tailoring though they taper ever so slightly, the bottom is also tailored to fan outward.
Heres a pic of my hauberk
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/59905_10200400842086901_1214590359_n.jpg)
They also sell the haubergeons for a similar low price, i'd suggest the wedge riveted as it flows easier and is soft on the undergarments, unlike the dome riveted which can tear gambesons to shreds unless you use a heavy canvas one.
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Ulrich, is that the one you're currently tailoring?
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Yes it's the same one, I still havent cut any rings. I'm unsure of how to tailor it cause I didnt realize the sleeves tapered until I counted the amount of rings, now i'm unsure of how to avoid the armpits.. It might look a bit "bright" but it's actually a dull grey thats just the cam making it look rather bright.
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Maybe you won't need to tailor it at all...I have seen examples of leather straps/thongs used to bring the maille closer to the arm- wouldn't that be swift if that was all that was needed? It won't work with my current hauberk as the lower on the arm you go, the more blowsy it gets; so I cut the sleeve a few inches below the elbow to help mitigate that somewhat. Yours actually looks like a size I could work with that wouldn't require much in the way of tailoring.
I really need to talk to the CaP guys to find out how close to my size this thing will be. I also note that no one else I know has one of these so it might be worthwhile to pick up and let you guys have a gander at it.
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Sir James, I'll settle for your thoughts on each- what're your observations? How about the pricing between the two?
I also happen to like the C-a-P stuff because even with shipping it'll be less than $750 ($680 for the hauberk by itself) all told. Hmm...just found a similar one from Icefalcon for $595, your thoughts?
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/medium-chainmail-hauberk-ff8081811ba39277011cf67673e52581-p.html (http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/medium-chainmail-hauberk-ff8081811ba39277011cf67673e52581-p.html)
That might not be what I'm looking for now that I look further...this appears to be of their pin-riveted lineup; if I'm going to spend that kind of money, I want a more historical presentation.
Looks similar to mine, I'm not 100% sure since I went with stainless. Oh, forgot I have a coif too - I think it's GDFB mild. KOA (where I got the GDFB mail) was something like $80 more for the mild wedge riveted haubergeon vs mild pin; not too bad. However, the IceFalcon hauberk in XL is $1095 for stainless pin, and $1495 for stainless wedge; I couldn't justify that amount of price difference on it for wedge, especially with wedge riveted being the wrong style for a Templar impression (early Teutonics .. yes .. since they're german) ... and since I'm a Templar recruit.... 8)
On that note, regarding historical presentation, pin riveted is more prevalent than wedge and wedge never really replaced pin either. And they're both equally bad modern recreations. :) Wedge started to come about around mid 13th century-ish (if I remember right) for german, and later 13th/early 14th for other areas/styles. Prior to that, it's almost exclusively pin riveted. (Ref: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=187600 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=187600) - good thread to read).
Pin riveted is more "universal" in timespan, but might be rough on arming garments depending on the material (both mail and cloth). I haven't had any trouble with mine over my Revival gambeson, but that's just fooling with it around the house and for testing the tailoring thus far - and I also split the hauberk and haubergeon in the front fully so I can put it on like a shirt instead of overhead. Since the mail moves pretty fluidly with you when even half-tailored, I think most of the abrasion comes from trying to slide it on, especially when it catches on itself and bunches and you have to tug at it. Make sure you wear the dome-head on the inside, with the peened/rough edge outward, I know you know that, but I mention it for anyone else reading the thread who might not.
If you're planning to do chausses, I haven't seen wedge riveted chausses yet. My inner OCD screamed at me to get pin riveted so that the harness would match, so if that's a concern you should check around for wedge chausses.
If the Cap-a-Pie is $680 for a wedge riveted hauberk .. that seems pretty good, especially if they do any tailoring with it. I've never seen any of their mail, but I've never seen anyone say anything bad about it either. I don't think IceFalcon offers mild wedge riveted, so if you want to go for that, it knocks him out as a possibility.
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That's interesting about the time frame of the wedge riveted; also I mentioned getting one simply because I have never had one. I've had two riveted hauberks, both of them are pin-riveted and I've had no issues with my clothes or hands or skin being damaged, but I've probably been pretty lucky in that I put it on the correct way, domeheads down (thank you for the reminder though, Sir James, I never articulated it as such, mostly tell myself to not be a dumbass and put it on wrong lol).
Seeing as I as yet have been unable to break into the 14thC like I want to, I'm going to stay in the 12th for the nonce, maybe a slight edging into the 13th but by and large, I'm in the 12th. Hence the desire for another, better hauberk. Key word being 'another'. lol
The other riveted hauberk I had was one of those ebaY ones out of India; it wasn't that bad but it was very oily and lighter than I thought it'd be.
CaP's pin-riveted hauberk is $480; with the round riveted coif at $120 I'm looking at $600, not including shipping. Wedge-riveted what? lol
I was flirting with the possibility of forgoing the coif and going with a maille standard- when did those start appearing? They offer them on CaP's website for ~$75...if I were to go with a barrel helm I could just have the standard and pad that helm for my head and a linen coif. Or should I go with the maille coif instead?
Also:
If you're planning to do chausses, I haven't seen wedge riveted chausses yet. My inner OCD screamed at me to get pin riveted so that the harness would match, so if that's a concern you should check around for wedge chausses.
CaP has those too: (http://www.capapie.co.uk/image/cache/data/chausses-maille-500x500.jpg)
Here's the actual link to them: http://www.capapie.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_70&product_id=92 (http://www.capapie.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_70&product_id=92)
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I like that word, 'another'. More mail! More armor!!! 8)
I was flirting with the possibility of forgoing the coif and going with a maille standard- when did those start appearing? They offer them on CaP's website for ~$75...if I were to go with a barrel helm I could just have the standard and pad that helm for my head and a linen coif. Or should I go with the maille coif instead?
I'm going to stay in the 12th for the nonce, maybe a slight edging into the 13th but by and large, I'm in the 12th.
My understanding is mail standards were around the transitional period, when a coif wouldn't be worn under the helm. Italians still used similar on their armets late into the white harness period, by attaching the mail standard directly to the bottom of the armet itself. For a mail harness, with simple cops and maybe gutter plates, I think you'd want to go with the coif. Some of the artwork has that style of armor with the helmet off, and a full coif. Most barrel / great helm styles are early/mid 13th century and on, unless you go with the "half helm" style with the full front face plate like the early crusaders had (and probably a few other styles). Nothing conical, I'd say.
As far as comfort, while sitting around with the helmet off, the coif gives a more "full mail" appearance for the onlookers. And helmets all day long can get uncomfortable. That's just style talking though. :)
I was flirting with the possibility of forgoing the coif and going with a maille standard- when did those start appearing? They offer them on CaP's website for ~$75...if I were to go with a barrel helm I could just have the standard and pad that helm for my head and a linen coif. Or should I go with the maille coif instead?
CaP has those too: (http://www.capapie.co.uk/image/cache/data/chausses-maille-500x500.jpg)
Here's the actual link to them: http://www.capapie.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_70&product_id=92 (http://www.capapie.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_70&product_id=92)
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Cool! They're just slightly less expensive than the pin riveted stainless, nice to see somewhere offering them though, I'll add that to my mental inventory. I'm quite partial to "wash and wear mail" since it takes time and effort to clean; tried the cement mixer w/sand (aka "electric squire and barrel), and it didn't live up to what I expected, even after running for hours. Might have been the sand, or oil, or I'm just too picky. :)
Edit: I *love* this site as a reference: http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm (http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm) - granted, it starts at 1300, a good century ahead of the 13th century, but anything highly popular in 1300 would be at the apex of armor tech in the early 13th century / 1200s. There's no neck specifics; with head defenses of 1300 being almost completely mail, I'm extrapolating on justifying the mail standard logic.
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I figured as much, which is why I asked here because I know you or one of us would know. I like the idea of a maille standard but that's just for comfort's sake. I'll go with the coif/haubergeon setup I got set on my wish list, along with loose rings, rivets and a tool. Even with all that it is still less than $600 all told and all coming from the same person so if there's a problem, one stop shop.
Think I'll cheat and go with a kneecop/greave setup instead of maille chausses; might sew some extra mail onto my pants (temporarily) for the upper thighs to give it that look. Looking to get an elbow cop/bracer setup as well. Any suggestions? I might ask Allan to do it.
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I'd check with Allan on it, I'm sure he could do them (if he has time), he did a set of floating vambraces for me.
You could make some "cheater chausses" from the spare ring leftovers.
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The cheater chausses is precisely what I plan on doing; you know what's funny is that I have some spare squares of rings from my current hauberk when I cut the sleeves down.