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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Ulrich on 2013-01-22, 05:02:56
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Does anyone got a clue where to get some? I been looking all around and all I really want is a scale vest to put over my hauberk to increase my chest protection also cause it looks cool to me. Not sure how historical it could be but I did read most knights in the late 13th early 14th had additional protection on their chest over the maille. Coat of plates is too expensive and I'd HAVE to get it customized to do that also seems heavier and I think it's kinda dull looking in all honesty so I was thinking scale would be good to put over it, as my one friend Robert Coleman did a similar thing, cept he used stainless steel spoons and made it himself, I actually want regular steel so it can get a patina, preferably thin tempered steel to reduce weight.
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http://www.polarbearforge.com/lamellar.htm (http://www.polarbearforge.com/lamellar.htm)
Polar Bear Forge can help you out.
When & where is your persona again?
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My persona is a late 13th early 14th century Teutonic knight. I dont know where to get a coat of plates for under 200 bucks, otherwise I would get one. Keep in mind I'm on a budget because I spent too much on this stuff, but once I sell my old stuff I should have the money by then. I dont think it's out of place for a crusader to get scale or lamellar armor in that area as they were used by the byzantines and they could of easily bought some of them off of them.
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Coat of plates can be had for really cheap if you keep an eye out. I think I paid $100 for mine?
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I paid $200 for the one I got last year, which I subsequently sold to Sir Edward; Ulrich, keep your eyes open. Also, you might be more interested in a CoP kit, rather than buying one outright. With the kit, you get all the plates cut and shaped to your specs- it is up to you to get ahold of whatever fabric or leather you want, and riveting the plates in place- I do believe these kits come with all the necessary hardware. Worth looking into.
More importantly, are you going for the lamellar look or the Byzantine/Roman scale look? For lamellar you'd be looking for D-shaped plates, for the scale, they'd look more like little thumbs.
The Ringlord makes individual scales that you can lace into a hauberk or textile based shirt: http://theringlord.com/cart/shopDisplayCategories.asp?id=184&cat=Scalemail+Supplies (http://theringlord.com/cart/shopDisplayCategories.asp?id=184&cat=Scalemail+Supplies)
Worth a shot.
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CoP's always pop up on the Armour Archive, just keep scanning the classifieds section every day. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with what you can find on there. Especially if you're willing to get a CoP kit, which I see all the time on there.
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http://www.calontirtrim.com/index.htm (http://www.calontirtrim.com/index.htm) contact them about there scale. i have seen a few kits made from them and its awesome.
but i think you want a coat of plates not scales.
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Yeah I think I am gonna go with a coat of plates instead, the DIY scale stuff does look cool though. Could just try lamellar over maille but that wouldnt be accurate to the Germanic part of Europe. If I could get a cheap coat of plates I would like it. Problem is sizing, I do intend on wearing it over my maille hauberk but the weight might get too much so maybe I should go with tempered steel rather than thick steel. Or go for aluminum, but I dont like using non period materials for a lot of my stuff.
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Ulrich...are you leaning more towards a Living History interpretation?
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Tempered steel for under $200 would be extremely rare at best. Aluminum, maybe, it's soft and light weight, and if it's covered, it's not a glaring issue. The mail fauld I wore at DoK was actually stainless. Nobody seemed to notice, or at least, no one said anything or even asked.
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Tempered steel for under $200 would be extremely rare at best. Aluminum, maybe, it's soft and light weight, and if it's covered, it's not a glaring issue. The mail fauld I wore at DoK was actually stainless. Nobody seemed to notice, or at least, no one said anything or even asked.
My whole haubergeon is stainless, as is my aventail. Being blackened it looks like regular mild steel, but I didn't want to deal with maille maintenance. I hate working on maille :)
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Yeah I am going the living history route. Rather go that way than go SCA being less into fighting more into reenacting. I did see some coat of plates on these eastern european armorers sites at a fairly decent price. Problem would be the shipping. Though in all honesty I want a 13th century one rather than a visby one.
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What's a 13c coat of plates? I was under the impression that the CoP was not a thing until early to mid 14c. I'm not aware of any effigies that depict anything other than just maille defense for the torso in the 13c
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Tempered steel for under $200 would be extremely rare at best. Aluminum, maybe, it's soft and light weight, and if it's covered, it's not a glaring issue. The mail fauld I wore at DoK was actually stainless. Nobody seemed to notice, or at least, no one said anything or even asked.
My whole haubergeon is stainless, as is my aventail. Being blackened it looks like regular mild steel, but I didn't want to deal with maille maintenance. I hate working on maille :)
Amen Brother!!
What's a 13c coat of plates? I was under the impression that the CoP was not a thing until early to mid 14c. I'm not aware of any effigies that depict anything other than just maille defense for the torso in the 13c
Same question. Wisby/Visby was mid 14th century where coat of plates was common. I don't know what a 13th Cent coat of plates would be, if it existed at all; that's a solid 50+ years before it was common if you're talking 1299 as 13th Cent; early or mid 13th Cent, I don't think it would be plausible unless something for the upper upper crust of royalty; certainly not for a knight or common soldier.
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I watched this series called "Weapons that made Britain" and they said during the 1250s there was a sort of coat of plates that was made for knights mostly, they didnt overlap like the Visby Plates but they were relatively similar to them in type. It was smaller and typically worn on the inside of the surcoat or over the maille, as seen here: http://www.arador.com/articles/stmaurice.html (http://www.arador.com/articles/stmaurice.html)
Where to get something like that I dont know, I dont even see European outfitters offering stuff like that, guess the only way would be custom built.
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Nice find Sir Ulrich, here's another example I just came across, German, Late 13th C, known as the Sleeping Guard. I would almost call these a 'Surcoat of Plates' haha
Here's a thread on someone reproducing something similar:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26423&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight= (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26423&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)
(http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/files/sleeping_guard_477.png)
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That actually doesnt look like it would be that hard to make. Just need a seamstress to make me a durable surcoat and I could probably cut polish drill and peen the plates onto the surcoat myself with the use of a hammer. Theres no overlapping either which makes it even easier. Just need a source for iron plate.
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That's pretty interesting. Always fun to learn something new!
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hey i have one of those. i just never put it together.shell is done, plates are cut and punched.
i think that the plates may indeed be vertical. and that they are overlapped. i am wondering though that each plate may indeed have a curve to them. thats why i stopped making mine. i got all over analytical on it and it went on the back burner. I may jsut bring it out of retirement if I can get my shopped cleaned up. lol. they sell a pattern you can buy for the surcoat/coat of plates part to make it easier. i just used heavy duck cloth from wal mart since this was an if it project. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Medieval-Military-Garments-S-XL-Period-Patterns-Sewing-Pattern-102-SCA-LARP-/360494098362?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D290840012504%26ps%3D54 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Medieval-Military-Garments-S-XL-Period-Patterns-Sewing-Pattern-102-SCA-LARP-/360494098362?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D290840012504%26ps%3D54) like this period patterns 102 has the surcoat
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I remember Lloyd Clark over on AA talking about making an armored surcoat once...this is probably what he had in mind. The material would probably need to be duck canvas, something durable enough that could stand the weight of the plates w/out losing its own rigidity. Do you think there might have been those using a leather base?
I like the idea of a curved plate, Sir Wolf...I imagine it would've been more comfortable to wear against the body than flat, unyielding plate.
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On the subject of scale:
http://video.pbs.org/video/2330357518 (http://video.pbs.org/video/2330357518)
Egyptian Armor with Mike Loades.
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Ulrich, there was a guy who was getting rid of a number of scales...I think they sold but it would've been a nice start for you if you were really interested in going this route. I happen to like the look of scale armor, it just happens to be older than the timeline I'm working in.
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I think if I do scale armor I am gonna go with leather, just to keep the weight down. Seeing how it can still stop an arrow even when being leather like in that video made me realize leather armor is actually effective. A coat of plates would weigh more and would be heavier, I am thinking scale may be more practical as well as double for something viking age. Or I could go with lamellar which is probably easier, I've seen that sold cheap too for like 180.
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I think Torvaldr of Skaldic.com is still selling leather scale.
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it really wouldnt have been "leather" like we think of it. it would have been more of a hardened rawhide. and the weight will resemble the COP due to all of the overlapping and rivets.
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it really wouldnt have been "leather" like we think of it. it would have been more of a hardened rawhide. and the weight will resemble the COP due to all of the overlapping and rivets.
Yep, what Sir Wolf said. Hardened leather is boiled and sometimes mixed with .. beeswax I think? .. been many years since I looked into it, but it's saturated with something else and it adds to the weight.
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beeswax is only for the waterproofing.
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To get the same protection value, steel is honestly your lightest and most efficient option. That's why it was used. And asofar as quibbling with the dates of the Visby find (1361), that style of COP was viable for use until around the early 14th century, considering the "armour lag" that styles took getting all the way to the Baltic.
If you are going to start throwing additional protection in top of your maille when your persona is in "The Age of Maille", I'm assuming you're doing it for protective value in combat. Cause let's face it, maille kinda sucks at absorbing all the blunt trauma we face (being literally the only threat we face, unless something has gone horribly, horribly wrong) and I will use every piece of rigid armour I can justify. From a practical (not getting hurt) standpoint, the Visby style is awesome. I've worn it in combat, and it has awesome movement, and it protects very well.
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beeswax is only for the waterproofing.
Ah, so it's the boiling that gives it the rigidity, thanks!
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yupyup. I've made some scale suits in the past. the water boiling is what makes the leather hard. it boils out all of the air from the pockets in the leather making it dense. lol don't leave your bees-waxed suit in the car during summer, ewh I've heard the horror stories on how it melted out of the suits.
Ulrick you are looking at 12-15 oz leather thats about to over 1/4 inch thick. all that over lapping is just gonna weigh you down. a COP is going to be more period and lighter. 18 gauge.
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Think I might just go for COP which can double for a 14th century kit as well now that I am not limited to 13th due to me ditching the Templar persona. I may just make it though cause I cant find one cheap, it's not like I am even gonna let it be seen as it would be under my surcoat so I wouldnt care if it was old and used looking. The main reason I wanted scale was I liked how it looked but it seems to be hard to find here and wasnt very common in northern europe.
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Keep an eye out, you can find random COP for around $100-$200 every now and then. I think I paid $100+S&H for mine, it was cheaper than I could have made it for.
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Ulrich, I just saw a sweet scale harness, all leather, no rivets, for sale on AA. Might be a touch big on you (cuz it'll be big on me too, at least according to the seller)...it also looks Roman-ish.
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http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=159684 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=159684)
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I just saw that today...told him I'd be interested in one as well.
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Sir Ulrich, that Armored Surcoat, or Surcoat of Plates, or whatever you want to call it... Check out this video that Thorsteinn posted. Take a look at the knight in the blue surcoat, he's wearing one! Looks pretty cool in action.
http://youtu.be/R7krQOKOsK8 (http://youtu.be/R7krQOKOsK8)
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Yeah, I think I might pick up one of those COP kits, only issue is they're galvanized so if I ever wanna heat it up with a torch to reshape it I would have some issues with it. Unless I could do cold working but I heard that makes metal brittle. My IRL friend has a coat of plates which I wore and tried on, he made his himself so I now might be able to make one perhaps with his help.
That fight video is cool, the surcoat of plates idea could work, I'd just need some plates to attached to either a linen or felt backing, not sure if leather would be the way to go though, I COULD always use a coat of plates kit and attach it to a surcoat instead.
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Coat of plates / Surcoat of plates doesn't need nearly as much shaping as a single-piece breastplate does since it has more flexibility to it. It's not flat, but it's not the complex deep curves of solid cuirasses.
You can work galvanized cold, you only really need heat for extreme dishing like raising a one-piece sallet or serious stretch-work. Heat certainly makes things like dishing knees or elbows easier, but it's not necessary.
The "brittle" of cold working is called "work hardening".. basically, by hitting the metal enough, it will start to harden up, and gets slightly harder to work as time goes on. Heating will bring the temper back to where it's easy to work, even after it's cooled off. Stainless steel is a *huge* pain with work hardening; the only stainless breastplate I ever made, which wasn't extremely dished, I think had 3 or 4 cycles of heat before it went completely hardened. If you listen, you can tell a difference in the hammer ring if it's hardened completely.
Unless you've got the tools to work the metal with, it's irrelevant. Working something small like coat of plates pieces should be reasonable enough since they're pre-cut and pre-punched, and just need a little shaping.
I'm far from good with armor, and never made anything I'd consider wearing. I can work straps and replace rivets, but that's about it ... I'd ask the guy selling the kit what you should have to assemble it. It might be as simple as a piece of metal pipe and a cheap bodywork hammer for planishing.
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Ulrich, check this out, $100 + shipping and might fit you:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=159902 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=159902)
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It is already sold, Sir James. However, since Ulrich is interested in historicity, he would not have wanted that particular corrazina anyway- it followed the Bashford Dean setup from the MET(which I'm to understand is not historically accurate, a pattern he himself made up) which is a-historical.
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It is already sold, Sir James. However, since Ulrich is interested in historicity, he would not have wanted that particular corrazina anyway- it followed the Bashford Dean setup from the MET(which I'm to understand is not historically accurate, a pattern he himself made up) which is a-historical.
Man, that sold quick. At a price tag of $100, not a whole lot to pick from. :)
The "Bashford Dean" one uses vertical fauld plates, instead of horizontal. Some coat of plates (like Wisby) had vertical fauld plates (dag plates), I just haven't seen it on corazinnas in particular, but it's a style I don't know much about or see much of either. Since they're internal plates, it's really hard to tell the difference except by rivet pattern. For $100 and already built, it would be a good interim piece and could probably be resold for minimal loss.
There was a thread floating around on some forum, complete with pictures, of how some museum displays were completely wrong; greaves placed on the wrong leg, arm harness backwards with the fans towards the back instead of front, mail shirts that were on backwards; all sorts of fun little stuff. :)
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Tell me about it; as I learn more I can pick them out but I don't know much about that era as of yet...was just going off the comments made on that thread by people I consider more knowledgeable than myself w/regard to that period in time. You're right tho, at that price and already built can't be beat.
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That sold so quickly I couldnt even pick it up. It prolly would of fit me too..