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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: SirNathanQ on 2012-09-26, 03:55:17
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Here's my Teutonic Knight kit. I will be wearing this to Days of Knights.
I have all the weapons (I was at MDRF, so I couldn't sport any ::) ) and the gauntlets are the only thing really missing.
Enjoy! :)
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Here's my Teutonic Knight kit. I will be wearing this to Days of Knights.
I have all the weapons (I was at MDRF, so I couldn't sport any ::) ) and the gauntlets are the only thing really missing.
Enjoy! :)
Looks good Sir Nathan. :) Sorry I missed you.
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Looks great! We need to put a spear or other suitably menacing weapon in your hand. :)
I'm trying to finish up my Teutonic look as well. Mine is circa 1250, using the kit I wore on Sunday as a basis.
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Sir Nathan...you have come a long way, Brother. Nicely done...I imagine you have your eyes set on some armor with brass accessories like your helm. I seem to remember that Sir James owns a suit that would fit that helm perfectly. ;)
All japes aside, you've done a marvelous job of putting together that harness and kit. Ah...to be 17 again, but with all that I know now. I envy you, Brother- but am also damn proud of you too.
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Sir Nathan...you have come a long way, Brother. Nicely done...I imagine you have your eyes set on some armor with brass accessories like your helm. I seem to remember that Sir James owns a suit that would fit that helm perfectly. ;)
All japes aside, you've done a marvelous job of putting together that harness and kit. Ah...to be 17 again, but with all that I know now. I envy you, Brother- but am also damn proud of you too.
Ditto, Sir Nathan. Salutes!!! :)
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Sir Nathan...you have come a long way, Brother. Nicely done...I imagine you have your eyes set on some armor with brass accessories like your helm. I seem to remember that Sir James owns a suit that would fit that helm perfectly. ;)
And I do have a set of brass-trimmed gauntlets to sell now, since my others came in earlier this week. :D
Sir Nathan, looking great. We'll surely make an impact at Days of Knights.
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Love it Sir Nathan! Can't wait to see it all in person.
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Thank you Brothers! Your words are much too kind! Sir Ed, I've got a dagger, my Tinker, my warhammer, my mace, my axe, and I'm making up another spear. My full kit should prove quite well armed.
Sir William, I am sure the set would fit my helm perfectly, but I'd wonder if it would fit ME perfectly ;)
Sir William, you are too kind with your praise. There are still many things that need attended to pertaining to this kit, but it's my first living history grade kit. I'm quite proud of it as well, if I may be allowed to indulge my pride.
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I concur with the accolades of our brethren Sir Nathan! You have painstakingly captured all the details which in of itself show us all your great reverence for such a noble order. Huzzah and well done! :)
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Sir William, you are too kind with your praise. There are still many things that need attended to pertaining to this kit, but it's my first living history grade kit. I'm quite proud of it as well, if I may be allowed to indulge my pride.
Absolutely! There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your appearance...it reflects well on The Order as well as the Teutonic Order you're portraying. As for the fit of that brass trimmed armor that Sir James is hoarding...yes, I think it would. ;)
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Sir William, you are too kind with your praise. There are still many things that need attended to pertaining to this kit, but it's my first living history grade kit. I'm quite proud of it as well, if I may be allowed to indulge my pride.
Absolutely! There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your appearance...it reflects well on The Order as well as the Teutonic Order you're portraying. As for the fit of that brass trimmed armor that Sir James is hoarding...yes, I think it would. ;)
Call it personal preference but you will never catch me wearing 'sabotons' with my kit. They are so clunky & uncomfortable. I can't imagine walking in them let alone fighting in them.
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Sir William, you are too kind with your praise. There are still many things that need attended to pertaining to this kit, but it's my first living history grade kit. I'm quite proud of it as well, if I may be allowed to indulge my pride.
Absolutely! There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your appearance...it reflects well on The Order as well as the Teutonic Order you're portraying. As for the fit of that brass trimmed armor that Sir James is hoarding...yes, I think it would. ;)
Call it personal preference but you will never catch me wearing 'sabotons' with my kit. They are so clunky & uncomfortable. I can't imagine walking in them let alone fighting in them.
That's easily solved by having properly fitted and constructed sabatons! :) My sabs are probably the piece of armor I notice the least while walking around.
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Sir William, you are too kind with your praise. There are still many things that need attended to pertaining to this kit, but it's my first living history grade kit. I'm quite proud of it as well, if I may be allowed to indulge my pride.
Absolutely! There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your appearance...it reflects well on The Order as well as the Teutonic Order you're portraying. As for the fit of that brass trimmed armor that Sir James is hoarding...yes, I think it would. ;)
Call it personal preference but you will never catch me wearing 'sabotons' with my kit. They are so clunky & uncomfortable. I can't imagine walking in them let alone fighting in them.
That's easily solved by having properly fitted and constructed sabatons! :) My sabs are probably the piece of armor I notice the least while walking around.
Unnoticed equals un-necessary to me, Ian. Not worried about someone stabbing my foot in a fight. I worry more about movement & stablilty. My boots are either leather or a period-flaxen material and well-suited for durability without need for them. They don't look good on me anyways with my kit. I don't want my kit to reflect a 'renaissance-era' suit.
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Unnoticed equals un-necessary to me, Ian. Not worried about someone stabbing my foot in a fight. I worry more about movement & stablilty. My boots are either leather or a period-flaxen material are well-suited for durability without need for them. They don't look good on me anyways with my kit. I don't want my kit to reflect a 'renaissance-era' suit.
That's exactly my point. If they're made properly, they in no way affect movement or stability. It's pure value added, and no negative impact. Unnoticeable is not unnecessary, it means no fatigue, plus protection, that's awesome whenever you're talking armor. They're hardly a required item for a kit, but they are by no means clunky or bad for mobility or stability if you have a good pair made to your shoes and your feet. The only reason to not have sabatons is purely aesthetic or stylistic, which is a 100% valid reason in its own right.
I also don't understand what sabs have to do with making you appear renaissance. Plate sabs make their first appearance on English effigies by 1330 and become common place by the 1350's. That firmly puts plate sabatons in the heart of the late medieval period.
For Sir Nathan's kit, he can go either way. German effigies of his chosen decade are about 50/50 plate sabs vs just shoes.
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Unnoticed equals un-necessary to me, Ian. Not worried about someone stabbing my foot in a fight. I worry more about movement & stablilty. My boots are either leather or a period-flaxen material are well-suited for durability without need for them. They don't look good on me anyways with my kit. I don't want my kit to reflect a 'renaissance-era' suit.
That's exactly my point. If they're made properly, they in no way affect movement or stability. It's pure value added, and no negative impact. Unnoticeable is not unnecessary, it means no fatigue, plus protection, that's awesome whenever you're talking armor. They're hardly a required item for a kit, but they are by no means clunky or bad for mobility or stability if you have a good pair made to your shoes and your feet. The only reason to not have sabatons is purely aesthetic or stylistic, which is a 100% valid reason in its own right.
I also don't understand what sabs have to do with making you appear renaissance. Plate sabs make their first appearance on English effigies by 1330 and become common place by the 1350's. That firmly puts plate sabatons in the heart of the late medieval period.
Correct but sabotons of plate armor were more common-placed in later-era than earlier. I don't want to look like Maximillian. Like you said, they can serve a purpose but not needed for my intentions. It's preference. They were the rich person's need to be completely covered head to toe. :) It does look good on your armor kit. Works better on foot soldiers than jousters.
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Unnoticed equals un-necessary to me, Ian. Not worried about someone stabbing my foot in a fight. I worry more about movement & stablilty. My boots are either leather or a period-flaxen material are well-suited for durability without need for them. They don't look good on me anyways with my kit. I don't want my kit to reflect a 'renaissance-era' suit.
That's exactly my point. If they're made properly, they in no way affect movement or stability. It's pure value added, and no negative impact. Unnoticeable is not unnecessary, it means no fatigue, plus protection, that's awesome whenever you're talking armor. They're hardly a required item for a kit, but they are by no means clunky or bad for mobility or stability if you have a good pair made to your shoes and your feet. The only reason to not have sabatons is purely aesthetic or stylistic, which is a 100% valid reason in its own right.
I also don't understand what sabs have to do with making you appear renaissance. Plate sabs make their first appearance on English effigies by 1330 and become common place by the 1350's. That firmly puts plate sabatons in the heart of the late medieval period.
For Sir Nathan's kit, he can go either way. German effigies of his chosen decade are about 50/50 plate sabs vs just shoes.
Armor chat. Armor chat!!
As a fellow metal-shoer, I do agree with Ian. A properly made pair of sabatons is nearly unnoticeable. The time I notice mine is when the lace slips off my shoe and it starts to flop - when it's attached, I don't notice it at all. In my case, it serves a dual purpose - it also keeps my greaves from digging into the top of my feet. I use a historical centering pin system to keep my cuisses centered on my greaves, which puts additional weight on the greaves, and pushes them downward slightly - if I have the cuisses pulled up so high that it holds the greaves up completely, I'm unable to lift my arms above midpoint because there's no slack in the arming coat due to the leg harness tension. I've yet to test this with a separate pourpoint, though.
On a practicality note, no, we should in no way be worried about someone stabbing our foot in a fight. We don't fight with sharps, and we don't have any foot-stabbing techniques we'd use (that I'm aware of). On horseback, stirrups do provide an extra level of protection; but yet, many jousting armors included sabatons with them. The key to horse control is in the inner thighs, hence the lack of armor there with mounted combat harnesses.
We're also generally a "one on one" mindset; but throw yourself in the midst of a medieval battle, when there are potentially multiple combatants focused on you, with pole-axes swinging, a sky of raining arrows, and half-dead bodies littering the ground. Somebody's last ditch effort at combat could be stabbing at feet, while they lay nearly dead. A misplaced lower leg shot, or one at a moving leg, can easily become a foot shot. Of course, in SCA context, the lower leg isn't even a valid target, so if somebody hits your foot ... something went horribly wrong ... so there's doubled lack of incentive to wear sabatons for SCA battles, as feet are an invalid target and they wouldn't "count" as armor anyway. Historically, if there wasn't a use for sabatons (and they didn't sell), they wouldn't have made lots of them. :)
More importantly, as Ian said, sabatons are in no way "renaissance" gear. I've seen many instances where the first bits of armor to develop from mail to plate was from the bottom up, and limbs - feet and shins first, followed by vambraces, etc. Take Guillame Tirel:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/static/monuments/original/guillaume_tirel_s115_r2058.jpg (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/static/monuments/original/guillaume_tirel_s115_r2058.jpg)
(Thanks Effigies and Brasses!)
The effigy is from 1360. Note the simple cervelliere skull cap, with mail aventail. Mail hauberk, with what looks to be splint vambraces - or potentially even just padding sewn in vertical rows. A simple partial coat of plates (or corrazina?) and a shield, but still with plate legs and sabatons. Well before the renaissance, and hundreds of years before Maximillian armor. There's probably other examples, maybe earlier, but I found that one in 2 minutes.
Be they plate or mail, sabatons are one of the very often overlooked, and often "final" bits, to finishing off a harness.
(stepping off my soapbox...)
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Unnoticed equals un-necessary to me, Ian. Not worried about someone stabbing my foot in a fight. I worry more about movement & stablilty. My boots are either leather or a period-flaxen material are well-suited for durability without need for them. They don't look good on me anyways with my kit. I don't want my kit to reflect a 'renaissance-era' suit.
That's exactly my point. If they're made properly, they in no way affect movement or stability. It's pure value added, and no negative impact. Unnoticeable is not unnecessary, it means no fatigue, plus protection, that's awesome whenever you're talking armor. They're hardly a required item for a kit, but they are by no means clunky or bad for mobility or stability if you have a good pair made to your shoes and your feet. The only reason to not have sabatons is purely aesthetic or stylistic, which is a 100% valid reason in its own right.
I also don't understand what sabs have to do with making you appear renaissance. Plate sabs make their first appearance on English effigies by 1330 and become common place by the 1350's. That firmly puts plate sabatons in the heart of the late medieval period.
For Sir Nathan's kit, he can go either way. German effigies of his chosen decade are about 50/50 plate sabs vs just shoes.
Armor chat. Armor chat!!
As a fellow metal-shoer, I do agree with Ian. A properly made pair of sabatons is nearly unnoticeable. The time I notice mine is when the lace slips off my shoe and it starts to flop - when it's attached, I don't notice it at all. In my case, it serves a dual purpose - it also keeps my greaves from digging into the top of my feet. I use a historical centering pin system to keep my cuisses centered on my greaves, which puts additional weight on the greaves, and pushes them downward slightly - if I have the cuisses pulled up so high that it holds the greaves up completely, I'm unable to lift my arms above midpoint because there's no slack in the arming coat due to the leg harness tension. I've yet to test this with a separate pourpoint, though.
On a practicality note, no, we should in no way be worried about someone stabbing our foot in a fight. We don't fight with sharps, and we don't have any foot-stabbing techniques we'd use (that I'm aware of). On horseback, stirrups do provide an extra level of protection; but yet, many jousting armors included sabatons with them. The key to horse control is in the inner thighs, hence the lack of armor there with mounted combat harnesses.
We're also generally a "one on one" mindset; but throw yourself in the midst of a medieval battle, when there are potentially multiple combatants focused on you, with pole-axes swinging, a sky of raining arrows, and half-dead bodies littering the ground. Somebody's last ditch effort at combat could be stabbing at feet, while they lay nearly dead. A misplaced lower leg shot, or one at a moving leg, can easily become a foot shot. Of course, in SCA context, the lower leg isn't even a valid target, so if somebody hits your foot ... something went horribly wrong ... so there's doubled lack of incentive to wear sabatons for SCA battles, as feet are an invalid target and they wouldn't "count" as armor anyway. Historically, if there wasn't a use for sabatons (and they didn't sell), they wouldn't have made lots of them. :)
More importantly, as Ian said, sabatons are in no way "renaissance" gear. I've seen many instances where the first bits of armor to develop from mail to plate was from the bottom up, and limbs - feet and shins first, followed by vambraces, etc. Take Guillame Tirel:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/static/monuments/original/guillaume_tirel_s115_r2058.jpg (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/static/monuments/original/guillaume_tirel_s115_r2058.jpg)
(Thanks Effigies and Brasses!)
The effigy is from 1360. Note the simple cervelliere skull cap, with mail aventail. Mail hauberk, with what looks to be splint vambraces - or potentially even just padding sewn in vertical rows. A simple partial coat of plates (or corrazina?) and a shield, but still with plate legs and sabatons. Well before the renaissance, and hundreds of years before Maximillian armor. There's probably other examples, maybe earlier, but I found that one in 2 minutes.
Be they plate or mail, sabatons are one of the very often overlooked, and often "final" bits, to finishing off a harness.
(stepping off my soapbox...)
I wear armor padding for the greave problem when I wear a soft flaxen boot & not needed when I wear leather boots. Solves that metal digging into my foot problem with ease. Plus, I practice spear techiques that involve utilizing a butt-end (sharp & blunt) in addition to the spear-head so protecting my feet is paramount. Of course, I'm also not wearing a full-harness when I do this type of fighting so....
The plate sabatons just seem more prominent with later armor kits that you see as display (why I always picture them in later periods). I just don't prefer them.
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In Germany, sabatons are essentially optional. I wouldn't wear a set of maille sabatons, and plate ones are pretty low on my list of armouring priorities at the moment. Right now I'm concentrating on Gauntlets, gorget and hopefully a haubergeon.
I figure I'll get a pair made someday, but not before DOK.
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In Germany, sabatons are essentially optional. I wouldn't wear a set of maille sabatons, and plate ones are pretty low on my list of armouring priorities at the moment. Right now I'm concentrating on Gauntlets, gorget and hopefully a haubergeon.
I figure I'll get a pair made someday, but not before DOK.
If you're trying to narrow down priorities, you can put gorget pretty far down the list. They seem to be extremely rare in the 14th century. It seems plate neck defenses don't really become normal until the great bascinet, and then the use of bevors with sallets in the 15th century. The normal 'gorget' people picture in their head is usually a 16th century item. You're good to go and will match the vast majority of effigies out there with just an aventail as a neck defense.
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i would wonder if mail was a man at arms sabaton while plate was a knights?just a thought. mail would be easier to walk in while a knight would be on horseback
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Ian, my gorget will be hidden. It's for combat, where solid neck defenses are a top priority!
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Ian, my gorget will be hidden. It's for combat, where solid neck defenses are a top priority!
My spaulders connect to my gorget so kind of a mute point. It is a needed component.
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I wear armor padding for the greave problem when I wear a soft flaxen boot & not needed when I wear leather boots. Solves that metal digging into my foot problem with ease. Plus, I practice spear techiques that involve utilizing a butt-end (sharp & blunt) in addition to the spear-head so protecting my feet is paramount. Of course, I'm also not wearing a full-harness when I do this type of fighting so....
The plate sabatons just seem more prominent with later armor kits that you see as display (why I always picture them in later periods). I just don't prefer them.
That's a very good point. I think we just have less of the earlier period sabatons due to them being a couple centuries older, and one of the more heavily abused bits of armor (so close to damp ground all the time). It's very much personal preference, just pointing out that based on effigies and other data, sabatons are much earlier than generally thought of.
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Ian, my gorget will be hidden. It's for combat, where solid neck defenses are a top priority!
My spaulders connect to my gorget so kind of a mute point. It is a needed component.
It is also a Renaissance-era invention. You see that? You went there without even meaning to. I have found that lacing my spaulders to my hauberk (or arming coat if you have one of those) makes them much more stable than a strap to the gorget. I have that set up too...and they're just not as stable.
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Ian, my gorget will be hidden. It's for combat, where solid neck defenses are a top priority!
My spaulders connect to my gorget so kind of a mute point. It is a needed component.
It is also a Renaissance-era invention. You see that? You went there without even meaning to. I have found that lacing my spaulders to my hauberk (or arming coat if you have one of those) makes them much more stable than a strap to the gorget. I have that set up too...and they're just not as stable.
My gorget is worn under my breastplate n the straps connect at the collar base n at 2 points on my biceps. Very secure.
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Sir Nathan,
This made me think of you. It's local, a steal on the price, and very historical in shaping if you're interested (klappvisor):
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=154865 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=154865)
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Oooh, I want that. Hard to justify spending more money at the moment though.
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I know, I really really want it, but the funds are out of reach at the moment......