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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2008-08-26, 20:20:26
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OK... so here's the deal. Sir Brian and I were discussing options for (and this makes me gnash my teeth and cringe) hacking the blade off of a sword to make a hilt+scabbard prop to wear to the renfaires that don't allow complete weapons to be worn as garb items.
Anyone have some good recommendations for inexpensive swords with pretty hilts that would be period-appropriate for late 13th or early 14th century? These can be real clunky wall hangers with non-tempered blades... and of course, that might even be better since we're talking about cutting through the steel.
I'm still half-tempted to get another Hanwei practical single-hand trainer, but I know there are cheaper options out there for something that is essentially going to be destroyed.
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http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~PAKLI3112~name~Brass+Hilt+Crusader+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~GZ6002~name~Headless+Horseman+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SW669~name~Lord%27s+Broad+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~M3060~name~Phantom+Short+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SW620E~name~Kings+Two+Handed+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~PAKLI3224~name~Wald+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~BK1368~name~Barbarossa+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SW672~name~Lion%27s+Head+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SW610~name~Wizard+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~BK780~name~Black+Baron+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SW626DLS~name~Ranger+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SW651~name~Sword+of+the+White+City.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SW668~name~Duke%27s+Broad+Sword.htm
here's a few on kult of athena that were in the 20-50 range theres a few really nice one's in there that i'd like to do that with, i don't know if there were any under 20 bucks, i didn't look but here's teh link: http://www.kultofathena.com/under20.htm
as to cutting the blade off, it would be easy to use the cutting blade on my angle grinder, maybe take 5 seconds. :)
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Oh, I forgot to mention that one of the requirements is a rigid scabbard that it can be glued into. Many of the swords I looked at on KoA either didn't have one, or had a leather one. I suppose one could be fashioned, and with most of the blade gone, the fit wouldn't have to be precise. But I also don't want to put a lot of time and effort in either.
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a wooden scabbard is easy. especially if u only have to grind out 3 inches or so of the inside. it takes 1 piece of 1/4 inch poplar that is 6 inch wide by about 3-4 ft long. they sell it at lowes in the specialty section. then u just have to stitch up a leather outter and your done.
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Heck I might have to jump on a couple of those deals just to add some variety to my
harness!
Oh and don't worry Sir Ed...the pain of what you must do to the sword eventually fades. ;)
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Yeah, some of these might work. Others are way too fantasy for my tastes (for faire).
Out of Chuck's suggestions, these wouldn't be bad: (and I wonder if I kept more of the blade, if that would keep a leather scabbard rigid and also give me more surface area to epoxy):
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~PAKLI3112~name~Brass+Hilt+Crusader+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SW669~name~Lord%27s+Broad+Sword.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SW668~name~Duke%27s+Broad+Sword.htm
... though that last one is a little later period I think.
And Sir Brian suggested this one last year:
http://www.twiggystreasures.com/koh-1-2.html (http://www.twiggystreasures.com/koh-1-2.html)
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Oh yeah! I had forgotten about that one!
...hmm that looks pretty good and a decent price as well!
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http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SW669~name~Lord%27s+Broad+Sword.htm
I decided to try the one above. For $20, it's hard to go wrong. If I ruin it, I'm not out a lot of money. :) I may leave more of the blade on it than I originally planned, and use it to keep the scabbard rigid. I'm not sure I want to take much time and effort to make a hard scabbard for it.
Ugh, I can't believe I ordered a $20 SLO. :)
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put a piece of wood down in the scabbard. that should keep it rigid
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True, I could do that. :)
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Something I've noticed with my newly acquired sword frog from the Inner Bailey...
http://www.theinnerbailey.com/frogsofthecircle3.htm (http://www.theinnerbailey.com/frogsofthecircle3.htm)
is the constant need to hold the sword because of the imbalance between the hilt
and the now empty scabbard. :(
I've been contemplating various methods of correcting this and the best method I
could come up with is to drill a small access hole into the scabbard and pour a sufficient
amount of sand to act as a counter-weight to the hilt.
I will then try to pour some white glue into the hole and hopefully it will act as a stopper
in preventing the sand from shifting too much. I have an ornament on hand I can use to
epoxy onto the scabbard to cover up the access hole.
I post this as a lesson learned and a recommendation to anyone else interested in hacking
up a sword to put some counter-weight in the scabbard BEFORE you epoxy the hilt to the
scabbard! :-[
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Sir Brian, could you add a weighted throat on the end of your scabbard?
I couldn't remember if you have one there or not. Might save you the trouble
of going back inside the scabbard. ;)
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I did consider that but I don't really have anything that would look decent. :(
The scabbard already has a chape which I don't want to mess around with and risk
the possibility of screwing it up beyond repair. :-\
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I can relate to that! Hopefully this is a good lesson learned for all
of us. hope all goes well with your efforts and keep us all posted! :)
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I apologize Sir Brian, I didn't mean to suggest the throat or the chape,
I meant the tip end. I couldn't remember what your sword had on the
tip, i.e. a metal fitting on the end that you could possibly weight, etc. :-\
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lol No apology necessary amigo! :)
My sword has a very basic metal chape or tip that appears to be pressed
and probably glued on. :-\
I feel fairly confident the sand scheme will work but I will take a few precautions
and do some preliminary testing by filling a similar void and evaluating the weight
distribution prior to firing up the drill! ;)
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Yeah, this is a good point. I haven't hacked mine up yet (haven't had time), but I was thinking about this. I might try filling it with sand before gluing it all together. I may look into it next week.
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Or, if you're going to put a wooden slab into a leather sheath,
fill the end full of sawdust and wood-glue first.... ;)
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If you are hacking up a sword, what about glueing the cut off blade part into the scabbard? That way you will have the same amount of weight still in the scabbard as you would have before. I'm actually looking into having a custome made hilt with a small amount of "blade" to secure into a scabbard. The only thing I have to find is a scabbard then to fit it into.
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Not a bad idea..... :)
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Well that would be the most expedient method…however if you are going to do that then
why hack the blade off at all?
– The most frustrating aspect of this whole endeavor is that the people who will have the
final say as to what is acceptable or not is unknown and also that there isn’t a specific
guideline for them to go by to help them determine what is to be considered as a non-weapon
like prop. :-\
Update on the sand method:
I've tried it out and the white glue maybe problematic with the long drying time...that and the sand
really soaked it up - no real surprise as that IS what sand does! ;)
I'm not worried about the sand escaping but I do want to limit the shifting of the sand (i.e. weight).
I think I'll next try some epoxy to act as a stopper.
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I was figuring that's what would happen with the sand, Sir Brian.
epoxy should do the trick,I would think....
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Also, in the case of the sword I'll be hacking up, the scabbard is I'll be using is from a different sword, and the entire existing blade won't fit inside it. So using the cut-off blade is a no-go anyway. :)
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Looks like you'll have to go the way of Sir Brian and epoxy the scabbard.
Going to try to dowel the scabbard or is it a rigid type?
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Well the sand method was a bust! :(
There was insufficient void space in the empty scabbard to accommodate the
required amount of sand to provide an adequate ballast for the hilt.
I was only able to get approximately half as much sand that I need into the
scabbard. The balance is a little better but not as it should be.
I now have to consider some far more drastic alternatives:
The primary idea I’m kicking around now is to cut the bottom of the scabbard
completely off. Then insert as many lead strips I can into the bottom before gluing
the bottom back on then using wood putty and a sander to close up the seam. I will
then probably have the scabbard painted the same green as my shield. :-\
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Yes, I was going to suggest some sort of lead ballast. I know we talked about the idea of melting plumber's solder in there, but another idea might be to buy some small fishing weights. I don't know how much space you're working with inside the scabbard though. A properly made scabbard has just enough space for the blade. Many of these cheaper ones allow the sword to slip around in there a bit.
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I was considering these:
http://www.michaels.com/art/online/displayProductPage?productNum=cp0271 (http://www.michaels.com/art/online/displayProductPage?productNum=cp0271)
@ 1/8" thick they should fit fine. I only hope they will be enough weight! :-\
What about the rest of the idea? Do you think my scabbard will look alright painted the
same green as my shield? :-\
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I have to admit, all of this sounds too complicated to me. It would seem much simpler to put a tie on the scabbard near the throat and fix it to the belt so that the hilt can't dip forward. Many sword belts are rigged in a similar way anyway, so you could just use a leather strap that matches your belt, and it wouldn't look out of place.
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Well sure I'm working on that as a temporary fix for this weekend, but all these other more
permanent and complicated fixing concoctions is where all the fun is Bill!
;)
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Is is possible to just glue the blade permanently in the scabbard so it can't be drawn? It'd be a non-functional weapon at that point.
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What about the rest of the idea? Do you think my scabbard will look alright painted the
same green as my shield? :-\
That would probably work. I don't see why not. :)
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I think I'm going to take Bill's approach. I'm going to have a 2-point
suspension on whatever belt I go with. A short belt at the throat seems like
it should keep my ring-hilt from dropping. :)
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As it turns out, I just realized that opening week-end for Charlotte is in two weeks!
The missus and I went to Tandy leather in Charlotte yesterday and I am currently
strapping the spurs a most gracious Sir Brian presented me with, and working on
my own 2-point belt system for my ring-hilt. I used a C. Fletcher design and it
looks like it will turn out very well. Took pics of the dyeing process and cutting
yesterday and will post them as soon as I am able.....looks like "crunch time".... :D
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I can't wait to see it! Wow CRF is in two weeks! Time sure flies during Ren Faire season! :)
I was successful with counter-balancing of my scabbard so now my sword "prop" hangs as
it should. Here are a couple of pictures with "hands free" - i.e. not having to hold it at the
correct angle. ;)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/08MDRF_210.jpg)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/08MDRF_211.jpg)
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I know! I didn't think it was for another 3 or 4 weeks! :-\ When Connie told me I thought,
"here we go!" made a new sword belt as well and I'm still pulling excess dye off it!! :-[
Looks like your balancing job did the trick. Looks Great!!!! Are you and your Lady planning
on attending opening week-end in Charlotte? :D
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I'm afraid not. :(
We usually wait until after MDRF closes and catch CRF a couple of times to close out our
fair season! :)
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That makes sense I suppose. We try to go to closing week-end for our home faire as well.
Going to try to post some project pics tonight if I can figure out how to shoot em over
from my E-mail. :)
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Hey, the sword suspension is looking good! I really need to get cracking on mine, so I can bring it back to faire next week (I have a week and a half to work on it, meaning I'd better do it next week when I have time!)
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Well, I hacked up the blade and epoxied it into the scabbard. For ballast, I took a section of blade material and slide it down into the scabbard. So while there's only about 4" left on the hilt, there's another foot or so of the mid-section of the blade sitting further down. I'm giving it a full 24 hours to cure, and I'll see how it looks tonight.
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My case was a bust... :-[ So much weight up on the ring-hilt, damn
things naturally top heavy and even the 2-point suspension didn't solve anything.
Being a real blade, I diden't have the option of sawing the blade off of this one!
I was forced to do the cheese-flavored thing and epoxy a weight sleeve of black leather
around the bottom of the scabbard. Doesn't look that bad, but I kinda know its there if
ya know what I mean... ;) Gotta do what ya gotta do. makes ya wonder how our forebears solved this riddle...... ???
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if it doesn't work re think it. you may need to look for period examples if you can. it would be easier than reinventing the wheel. sorry it didnt work out how you liked though. its always a bummer to work on something and then be, EH about it :(
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Ah yes, but I suppose thats how we learn..... ;)
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I don't have a shot of the finished product yet, but here's the shot after cutting:
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2008/weapons/a2398.jpg)
I also scored the remaining blade, as you can see, to help with the epoxy. The cuts were made using the dremel, and it went very quickly. It seems to have gone well, though the blade piece I used for weight rattles around inside.
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Will just that piece of blade give you enough weight Sir Edward?
I had to add quite a bit, but your sword probably isn't as top-heavy as my 15th.....
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Yeah, it's balanced enough with the frog I'm going to use that it'll sit nicely, even with half the blade material gone. It's not as top-heavy as it looks. I suspect the pommel isn't solid all the way through.
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Just thought I'd post a note on this. This year at MDRF, one of the security guys has started giving me a hard time about the fake sword, along the lines of "we frown on that, just so you know for future reference", but never actually stops me. Someone called security on me once so far this season as well, and 4 of them came running over. I showed them it was fake, and they were satisfied and walked off.
Anyway, the belt I'm using is the one that Silvanus had linked to a while back. It's working out really well for a relatively inexpensive belt. When it comes to sword suspensions, they're usually really expensive, or horrendously simplistic, or badly designed. It's hard to get one that's reasonably priced and does the right thing.
Here's the link:
http://www.realarmorofgod.com/store/html/Products/Historical-Clothing/Medieval-Men/12th-Century-Sword-Belt-806.html (http://www.realarmorofgod.com/store/html/Products/Historical-Clothing/Medieval-Men/12th-Century-Sword-Belt-806.html)
And a photo from this season:
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2010/weapons/i0174.jpg)
I know it's hard to see the belt in the photo, but you can see how it holds the sword when I have the buckles tightened up to hold it fairly snug and high up. In period, double-wrap suspensions served the purpose of keeping the sword in place without it swinging all over while you're walking. This belt does that. The only thing I did to it to improve it was to tie the two scabbard loops together so they don't separate (and thus dump the scabbard out the front onto the ground if you bend forward). But I imagine they could be tightened down onto specific parts of the scabbard if you wanted them a little further apart too, but I haven't experimented with that.
Sometimes I just wish I used a slightly shorter scabbard. :)
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I was thinking of epoxying one of my old beaters into the scabbard- its no longer usable as a cutter, because of the tang being turned to accept screw-on pommels (and we all know how much those suck), the hilt components are basically shot and the blade's notched all to hell so I was gonna epoxy the whole damn thing just for MDRF. Bill said as much and I'd toyed with the idea for a while, just couldn't bring myself to do it. Now I think I can...just need epoxy and a rigid scabbard I guess? I like your belt Sir Edward...wouldn't you know THAT site is blocked too.
The gov't is afraid of God, apparently. As well they should be.
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Yep, just a rigid scabbard, and a way to rough up the blade a little so the epoxy can grab it.
In my photo above, the blue belt you see is the knightly belt that you can get from places such as MRL. I wear it over the black double-wrap belt for the looks and to hold the pouches and things separately.
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Rigid scabbard's gonna be a problem...hm. Might have to turn my Brom sword into my Ren Faire piece. That's got such a clunky scabbard though, its really unattractive.
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I'm tempted to rig up another prop sword that's a little shorter in the scabbard. The one I'm using usually hangs a little lower than the photo I posted a few messages back, and ends up hitting the ground a lot, or catching the lace ties in the chausses on the back of my ankles.
But if I'm going to do this, I'd be tempted to grab a prettier looking SLO to hack up. We'll see if I get around to it. I have an entire year to think about it now, since I won't be able to do this before the closing weekend this year at MDRF (and any other faire I go to in between will allow my real swords).
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I've never understood why most other renn fests allow you to bring weapons but the md renn fest does not. I understand if you're not wearing a kit, but if it goes with the kit, and, as far as I know, no one has been killed by attendees with weapons, I don't know why they prohibit them. I'm surprised they didn't ask you to take the "sword" to your car for the rest of the day.
Seems a bit like driving a modified car. You know you're not doing anything wrong, yet you know people are looking at you and thinking you're "up to no good" because of it. Sir Edward, do you think it was worth the extra harassment to wear the prop than to go without it and not be bothered?
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Yes, I think so. It's only one security guy who has made it his personal quest to keep telling us "for future reference" that we shouldn't bring in scabbards (because you might hit a kid in the face). And then I had security called on me once, but the security guys were very polite and were unconcerned once they looked at it. The rest of the time, no one cares.
As for MD being the only one that seems to disallow real swords altogether, it's a strange combination of things. They still have sword vendors on site, so it seems a bit hypocritical to me. However, the faire is owned by a family of lawyers, in a predominantly left-leaning state that is afraid of weapons in general. MDRF is also the one we see the most stupid drunks at. And I'm not sure of the accuracy of the stories floating around, but supposedly many years ago, they had a situation where an armed patron pulled a dagger on the queen, plus some cases of drunks swinging sharps at each other in the parking lot.
They used to only disallow patrons from carrying, but it was OK for vendors. Then some vendor did something stupid with pulling a weapon on another employee, and then that ended. Now only cast can carry.
When I was a teen, I used to sneak a sword in with me (back then I only attended once a year, so it wasn't a big organized effort). It's easy to get past security with cloaks and the like. I gave that up a long time ago, when I became more intent on honorably obeying the rules. :) However, we do still from time to time see people get in with sharps, without security stopping them. We've seen a few folks brag to us about that (so they obviously knew it was against the rules).
Knowing this faire, we'll eventually get banned from bringing the fakes in, because technically their rules already don't allow for it (website says no costume weapons), and eventually they'll probably decide they can't trust their security guys to tell the difference, so they'll ban them all. But until that happens... until they explicitly say "no" to me, I think it's a valuable costume piece that completes the look, and I really haven't been hassled that much.
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Knowing this faire, we'll eventually get banned from bringing the fakes in, because technically their rules already don't allow for it (website says no costume weapons), and eventually they'll probably decide they can't trust their security guys to tell the difference, so they'll ban them all. But until that happens... until they explicitly say "no" to me, I think it's a valuable costume piece that completes the look, and I really haven't been hassled that much.
I think if/when that day happens I will probably stop wearing armor to MDRF if I hadn't stopped going previously. :-\
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I think if/when that day happens I will probably stop wearing armor to MDRF if I hadn't stopped going previously. :-\
Hopefully it won't come to that. I suspect what it'll take is if someone passes off a sharp as a fake, and then hurts someone. But the whole mentality of that area seems to be "ban first, ask questions later", so we'll see.
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ya it just sucks all the way around. i can never bring myself to hack up a sword no matter how cheap hheheh i'm just too cheap ;) i just carry the empty scabbard and no one has said the difference to me.
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Like Sir Wolf I bear the empty scabbard but I definitely hate the look. I haven't been able to get online before today otherwise I'd be sporting a KoA offering nailed into the scabbard! Hell...I still might do that to an old Windlass beater I got in a leather scabbard...figure, if its nailed at three points it should be pretty much in there, no? lol
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well prob no, its still a sword. so the lawyers could still get you hehehe
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Perhaps, but an UNUSEABLE sword...unless I took the entire kit and kaboodle and started whaling away with it. LOL
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I could ask my cousin for a legal opinion if anyone is interested. He would at least get a kick out of the question.
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hahaha maryland law says u can't carry anything longer than 3 inches if im not mistaken. being the faire is privately owned on rented property i don't think the owners fool around with anything, legal or not just to error on the side of caution
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I have heard that...I know that's the rule when you're on Fed grounds (no blade over 3" in length) and it makes sense the state (MD) would ape that law just as a 'me-too' type of thing. I think if they ban guns, we should be allowed to bear swords instead.
Sir Ancelyn...I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't...we wouldn't want anyone at the MDRF getting any new ideas. ;)