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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir James A on 2012-06-03, 01:55:56
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This was a rather unpleasant find. After cleaning off the rust from wearing my harness at VARF last week, I did the 'usual' ... CLR w/scotchbrite, WD40, dry, oil, ???, profit.
The next morning?
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/random/th_2012-06-02125029.jpg) (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/random/2012-06-02125029.jpg)
Yep. The *entire* leg rusted. The top leg is from the same process, but not using the RemOil. I may have to disassemble these to get them properly cleaned, the oil rusted things so badly it's even in-between the articulation. And I had some small, light spots of rust on the leg harness before applying that oil - it was nowhere near that rusted all over, or that dark of a patina either.
I picked up the RemOil in a spray can, and a package of oil-soaked wipes, at Wal-Mart in the gun section. The can says "exceptionally high performance cleaner, lubricant and corrosion protectant" ... I think it should say corrosion promoter. It's terrible. Don't let it anywhere near your armor!
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THE HORROR!!!!! THE HORROR!!!! OH GOD, MAKE IT STOP!!! :o :o :o
That's insane. Looks like you rolled a natural 1 on a saving throw against some +15 rust monsters :P
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Yeah, this has been happening with my MercTailor gauntlets as well. My troubles began when I switched to the spray gun oil. I'm going to go back to mineral oil.
Mine is a different brand of gun oil, but something I noticed on the label is that it's synthetic. I wonder if there's something in it that reacts with trace amounts of the CLR left on the metal. I never had much trouble when I cleaned the CLR off with a thorough wipe-down, and then WD-40 and wipe-down again, and then put mineral oil over it.
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Thats why I use olive oil to oil my armor. I sweat all over my coif and it still didn't rust thanks to the oil I put on it. I cant use anything synthetic as I was totally allergic to synthetic oil on armor.
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i think there maybe water in all spray on oils to help with the spraw part.
ugggggggggggg horror for sure man. i feel for you
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Thats why I use olive oil to oil my armor. I sweat all over my coif and it still didn't rust thanks to the oil I put on it. I cant use anything synthetic as I was totally allergic to synthetic oil on armor.
Interesting.
Yeah, this has been happening with my MercTailor gauntlets as well. My troubles began when I switched to the spray gun oil. I'm going to go back to mineral oil.
Mine is a different brand of gun oil, but something I noticed on the label is that it's synthetic. I wonder if there's something in it that reacts with trace amounts of the CLR left on the metal. I never had much trouble when I cleaned the CLR off with a thorough wipe-down, and then WD-40 and wipe-down again, and then put mineral oil over it.
Quite interesting and lessons for me as well. ;) If I had to choose an oil for my Kit, WD-40. ;)
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Quite interesting and lessons for me as well. ;) If I had to choose an oil for my Kit, WD-40. ;)
WD-40 is NOT an oil and will provide NO lasting protection. WD-40 is good, but it evaporates rather quickly and would require re-application very frequently. Like Sir Edward mentioned, after the WD-40, you wipe it clean and THEN apply an oil. The WD-40 helps eliminate all semblance of water or moisture on the surface of the metal. The oil applied afterward keeps it off.
My oil of choice is BreakFree CLP (when I'm done using it on my guns) and haven't had any issues. I've used it on firearms forever, and started using it on armor. I've used it on mild steel as well as spring steel parts, and I use it on my swords as well, and have always had fantastic results. (It's also recommended by Albion! http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/sword-care.htm (http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/sword-care.htm))
Sir James, you could always go for the 16th Century Spanish Conquistador in the humid jungles of the New World look? :) I kid I kid....
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WD-40 is NOT an oil and will provide NO lasting protection. WD-40 is good, but it evaporates rather quickly and would require re-application very frequently. Like Sir Edward mentioned, after the WD-40, you wipe it clean and THEN apply an oil. The WD-40 helps eliminate all semblance of water or moisture on the surface of the metal. The oil applied afterward keeps it off.
Someone conducted a test recently, by applying a variety of different oils, waxes, etc on swords and seeing which resisted rust the best. WD-40 was in his top-5, but the problem with his experiment is that he was comparing results after only 30 days. WD-40 evaporates within that timespan, so you'd have to reapply it every few weeks for this to be sustainable, as Sir Ian pointed out.
WD-40 is really good to use before applying your oil, though, and here's why. "WD" stands for "Water Displacement" (and the 40 comes from the fact that it was their 40th formula). It's designed to get into all of the little microscopic nooks and crannies in the surface of the steel and displace the moisture. The wipe-down is needed to remove the moisture. Then you can apply your sealant.
You can actually safely wash your sword blades and armor pieces with soapy water to get old oils off, as long as you get the soap off, let it dry for a short while, and then thoroughly hit it with the WD-40 before re-sealing. If you get water on your steel and don't use WD-40, you're risking sealing moisture into those microscopic cracks, and that's where rust will begin.
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In period the solution to rust prevention was a mix of beeswax and olive oil for some.
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Also they painted their armour. Prevents rust and looks awesome!
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I prefer to use Kano Kroil oil, but I'm having a hard time finding it. Hoppes will work, but it's pretty pricey, at least where I am at. I don't use WD 40 on my armor anymore and am hesitant to use new oils because I am unsure of their protective value and if they might take the blueing off my armor.
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Like Sir Edward mentioned, after the WD-40, you wipe it clean and THEN apply an oil.
That's the process I followed. I used to just do scrub-down (typically wire wheel ... before I knew better), then wipedown, then WD-40.
I'll look into the BreakFree CLP oil. Is there a typical local store that might have it? I think I'm going to look into waxes too. The harness I bought had very minimal rusting, and it was coated with wax, not oil.
I think I'm going to polish it more when I get some "down time" later; the more polished steel is, the more it resists rust. Just need to make sure I don't go all "chrome knight" shiny....
I need a squire for this cleaning. :)
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Huh, it seems the more we do this, the more we appreciate the value of Squires! ???
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Yikes! That is like waking up from a nightmare only to find out you’re wrapped in another nightmare. :o
I’ve also heard many people, amateurs and professionals, rave about BreakFree CLP on myArmoury and the Armour Archive. I plan on purchasing some as soon as my current can of gun oil runs out.
Currently, I’m using a cheap Birchwood Casey synthetic gun oil in a 4.5 ounce can. Regular application has resulted in favorable results with only minor polishing needed on occasion. Like I said, as soon as it runs out I’m picking up the BreakFree because by all accounts it’s the bomb.
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Yikes! That is like waking up from a nightmare only to find out you’re wrapped in another nightmare. :o
I’ve also heard many people, amateurs and professionals, rave about BreakFree CLP on myArmoury and the Armour Archive. I plan on purchasing some as soon as my current can of gun oil runs out.
Currently, I’m using a cheap Birchwood Casey synthetic gun oil in a 4.5 ounce can. Regular application has resulted in favorable results with only minor polishing needed on occasion. Like I said, as soon as it runs out I’m picking up the BreakFree because by all accounts it’s the bomb.
Interesting, good information and I don't think Squires would a big deal if we polished armor like a household chore, that would solve every problem wouldn't it? ;)
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Something that you can also use to help clean the surface is Windex, before moving on to the WD-40 and sealing with oil. Believe it or not, it's not too bad of a surface cleanser for this, since it's mildly soapy. You just have to be sure to get it all off.
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Now that I know the differences between what I would have use in contrast to what I can use as an oil. Now I feel much better prepared.
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I currently use the Windlass spray-on protectant, forgot the name but its done the trick thus far...sorry to see that, Sir James...keep us posted as to the solution and the steps you took, in case it happens to one of us!
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I currently use the Windlass spray-on protectant, forgot the name but its done the trick thus far...sorry to see that, Sir James...keep us posted as to the solution and the steps you took, in case it happens to one of us!
Oh, it's cleaned. :) I started right after I took the pic. It was rather laborious, though.
Wiped it down again.
CLR w/scotch brites.
Wiped down.
Repeat CLR w/scotch brites.
Wiped down.
Used a towel and rubbed CLR all over it, then sprayed it with WD-40 without wiping off that CLR, and let it sit for an hour.
Came back, wiped it down, and everything is clean except the tiny little crevices at the edges of articulation, and around the rim of the rivets.
I might try some CLR w/a q-tip later, and Allan gave me a tip via PM, too.
I also dug back through my emails, and found, of all things, floor wax is what's on the harness I bought:
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/cleaning/cleaners/sc-johnson/16-oz-fine-paste-wood-wax-64825.html (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/cleaning/cleaners/sc-johnson/16-oz-fine-paste-wood-wax-64825.html)
It's available at my local home depot, and very reasonable in price. It worked so well on the rest of the harness (I didn't wear the legs from that harness), that I might give it a shot while I try to track down the BreakFree (which Allan also recommended too). Ah, and if the guy who sold me the harness is truthful (and I have no reason to doubt it), he said that while he was visiting the Met, he talked with someone who worked in the armor section who recommended that wax, since it's cheap and low/no acid. At $5 a can it's worth a try - could it be any worse than the RemOil? :D
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Oh, it's cleaned. :) I started right after I took the pic. It was rather laborious, though.
Wiped it down again.
CLR w/scotch brites.
Wiped down.
Repeat CLR w/scotch brites.
Wiped down.
Used a towel and rubbed CLR all over it, then sprayed it with WD-40 without wiping off that CLR, and let it sit for an hour.
Came back, wiped it down, and everything is clean except the tiny little crevices at the edges of articulation, and around the rim of the rivets.
I might try some CLR w/a q-tip later, and Allan gave me a tip via PM, too.
I also dug back through my emails, and found, of all things, floor wax is what's on the harness I bought:
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/cleaning/cleaners/sc-johnson/16-oz-fine-paste-wood-wax-64825.html (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/cleaning/cleaners/sc-johnson/16-oz-fine-paste-wood-wax-64825.html)
It's available at my local home depot, and very reasonable in price. It worked so well on the rest of the harness (I didn't wear the legs from that harness), that I might give it a shot while I try to track down the BreakFree (which Allan also recommended too). Ah, and if the guy who sold me the harness is truthful (and I have no reason to doubt it), he said that while he was visiting the Met, he talked with someone who worked in the armor section who recommended that wax, since it's cheap and low/no acid. At $5 a can it's worth a try - could it be any worse than the RemOil?
A lesson for me indeed, thank you Sir James!
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Okay, beyond a doubt, confirmed it's the gun oil. Last night while putting my armor back on the stand, I noticed the GDFB sabatons are rusting up really badly. Never worn them, because they look like clown shoes. They've sat there for a year and never had an ounce of surface rust. However, they're right next to where I cleaned the armor, and I'm betting I got some overspray on them. That's the only thing I can think of.
I also found a product called 'Iron Out' that has been doing well at removing the rust. It was, of all places, at Food Lion (or Safeway, or something ... a grocery store). I'll post more if I find out more.
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I did a lot of searching and reading last night. Some updated info:
Okay, beyond a doubt, confirmed it's the gun oil.
I need to revise this to "One of the causes is spraying the gun oil."
I've got a test piece on my workbench that I used the RemOil on again. It's just some old junk half-gauntlets that I never even put gloves in. However, this time I sprayed the oil on a rag, and then wiped it onto the piece; Sir Brian mentioned this on Facebook in regards to Sir Edward's gauntlets, and I realized I had sprayed the oil directly onto the armor ... just like with WD-40. However, I read that spraying *too much* oil onto the piece will cause it to *attract* moisture, and still rust. That *might* be part of the cause. I saw a number of people on MyArmoury who recommended RemOil at some point, including Mike Edelson. Nobody mentioned how they were applying it, though.
And yet, I found another odd event. I'm selling my SCA kit; I don't have any plans to go back to SCA, haven't for years, it's not period correct, but it was my first harness so I kept hanging onto it. I said I'd clean it up a bit before shipping. I cleaned the upper half of the harness last night, and went to do some research online. After a couple hours, I went back to the garage ... the armor had complete (but thin) surface rust! I didn't use any of the RemOil on it, just CLR and WD-40. I started sensing a pattern.
This sounds stupid, and I think it is, but ... I have a "blue" CLR bottle, and a "grey" CLR bottle. The blue CLR is what I cleaned my SCA stuff with last night - it's the older bottle, and I try to use the oldest stuff first. I'm not 100%, since it's only been about 12 hours, but, I'm about 90% certain the blue CLR is what makes the armor rust. It's stupid, I don't know what the difference is, other than the blue one is by "ZEP", and says "Professional strength". Neither bottle lists active ingredients, or even an ingredients list.
I cleaned one side of one of my pieces that was rusted a lot from the VARF demo with the grey CLR - and so far, no rust has come back at all. In contrast, the part with the blue CLR is already changing color. I've cleaned, once again, my SCA gear, with the grey CLR, and so far, so good. The test piece which was just wiped off and then RemOil'd with a cloth is still clean, too.
I also found some interesting comparisons between WD-40 / RemOil / Breakfree CLP and a few other brands. I'll post that later in a separate thread. Hopefully I've found what's rusting everything so rapidly; it was so obvious, since almost every cleaning I used the CLR and then tried WD-40, or RemOil, or wax, or just blasting it dry with the air compressor - and in every single one of those, I used CLR first. The exception was "Iron Out", which I mentioned above - using that in place of the CLR, it didn't rust, but it didn't have the cleaning power of the CLR on the heavier rust.
Sir Edward, what color is your bottle of CLR?
Edit: Here's the two blue and grey CLRs
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100670289/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=clr&storeId=10051 (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100670289/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=clr&storeId=10051)
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202751166&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&MERCH=REC-_-SearchPLPHorizontal1-1-_-NA-_-202751166-_-N (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202751166&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&MERCH=REC-_-SearchPLPHorizontal1-1-_-NA-_-202751166-_-N)
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I have a grey CLR.
Also, I discovered something else as well. I think the steal wool is part of the problem too. I only started using it recently (CLR doesn't work very well with just paper towels, it needs something mildly abrasive). I think the steel wool disintegrates a little, and the steel particles will also rust.
My gauntlets, after cleaning them again last weekend during the power outage, are already showing some slight rust, but only in a few places. The thing is, the rust is inside the oil, as I can wipe it off with a finger this time.
So I think I'm going to change strategy again and use scothbrites. The grey automotive ones are a medium abrasive, more-so than the steel wool, and so they WILL alter the steel's finish. So depending on the piece (shiny smooth ones, for instance), I may use the more mild kitchen scotchbrites. The medium grey automotive ones are what Albion uses, so they're just fine for the swords, and for armor with a more satin finish.
Something I've done in the past for some items is clean the surface with rubbing alcohol before hitting it sealants. It's not usually necessary, unless the item is actually dirty with something that you want to remove rather than seal in. But in the case of the CLR and particles of steel wool, perhaps the WD40 isn't enough to get it all out.
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I have a grey CLR.
Also, I discovered something else as well. I think the steal wool is part of the problem too. I only started using it recently (CLR doesn't work very well with just paper towels, it needs something mildly abrasive). I think the steel wool disintegrates a little, and the steel particles will also rust.
My gauntlets, after cleaning them again last weekend during the power outage, are already showing some slight rust, but only in a few places. The thing is, the rust is inside the oil, as I can wipe it off with a finger this time.
So I think I'm going to change strategy again and use scothbrites. The grey automotive ones are a medium abrasive, more-so than the steel wool, and so they WILL alter the steel's finish. So depending on the piece (shiny smooth ones, for instance), I may use the more mild kitchen scotchbrites. The medium grey automotive ones are what Albion uses, so they're just fine for the swords, and for armor with a more satin finish.
Something I've done in the past for some items is clean the surface with rubbing alcohol before hitting it sealants. It's not usually necessary, unless the item is actually dirty with something that you want to remove rather than seal in. But in the case of the CLR and particles of steel wool, perhaps the WD40 isn't enough to get it all out.
Hmm, grey CLR, good, that makes me feel better since your rust was nowhere near the level of mine.
I have been doing all my cleaning with the scotch-brite pads, and it doesn't affect my armor's finish. I use the "ultra fine" grey pads, but not the automotive ones. They're in a white box with blue lettering: http://www.amazon.com/20Pk-Scotch-Brite-Gray-Ultra/dp/B000CQ6I7G (http://www.amazon.com/20Pk-Scotch-Brite-Gray-Ultra/dp/B000CQ6I7G)
I cut them up into small squares, and depending how rusty they get, sometimes rinse them once or twice, but then toss them. At ~$1 per pad, and I cut the pad into 30 squares or so, they're about 3c each. :)
I think you might be onto something with the steel wool.
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hmmm i always used the green scrubbies. :) man rust in the oil blah!
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The last time I was in harness was about 2 months ago, and it got covered in a fine layer of dirt and crud from the Tampa ren faire. All I did was come hope and wipe it down with a cloth to remove the dirt and apply a thin layer of Breakfree CLP. Used a green scrubby on any areas that had a little surface rust. My gauntlets are on display on the bookshelf in my living room and are exposed to humidity changes, and they haven't required a touch up in 2 months. After about 24 hrs, Breakfree CLP tends to thicken up a bit and form a more protective layer on whatever you've applied it to, so far it's working like a charm! You should be able to find it at any gun store, or online at amazon.
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Two days later, and my "grey CLR" cleanings are still looking good.
The half gaunt plate with RemOil that I wiped on with a cloth looks good. The one I sprayed on has a few small rust spots forming up; nothing at all like what happened with the legs, though. Nowhere near it, just a few tiny, self-contained bits. The sabatons that started rusting, which I think from RemOil overspray, is just light surface rust; and that's ~6 weeks of time, too.
It's definitely looking like the culprit is the "blue CLR". Last test will be to rust up a plate with it later this week, to confirm.
Here's the comparison study I found: http://www.6mmbr.com/corrosiontest.html (http://www.6mmbr.com/corrosiontest.html) I picked up a small bottle of the Eezox. I haven't found a local gun store yet (at least online) ... which seems crazy in West VA. Wal-Mart carries Breakfree, but something called "Breakfree blaster" and not the CLP. I'm hoping I can find somewhere local with it.
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There's a gun shop in Leesburg right on Catoctin Circle, if you want to check there. It's called Loudoun Guns.
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hehehe get sucked in after oil, leave with 12 rifles... or is this just me?
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hehehe get sucked in after oil, leave with 12 rifles... or is this just me?
Not me. I own no guns, except my grandfather's non-firing antique rifle. :)
I do have projectile weapons though. ;)
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non firing antique? wanna make it fire again? heheheh
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hehehe get sucked in after oil, leave with 12 rifles... or is this just me?
lol, I'm not usually that bad. But I've gone to shows expecting to just buy ammo, and came home with a handgun before. :)
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Breakfree CLP is now made by Safariland (they make tons of other stuff for guns, mostly the best holsters on the planet :) ) But just so when you go looking for it, it will say Safariland Breakfree CLP on it, it's the same stuff.
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There's a gun shop in Leesburg right on Catoctin Circle, if you want to check there. It's called Loudoun Guns.
Bingo! Found it there yesterday. Thanks for the tip. :)
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anything good in there?
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anything good in there?
Yep. Breakfree CLP and ironically enough, some RemOil too. :)
There were other people holding guns, but none were pointed at me, so I didn't pay any attention to them. :D
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I didn't get around to taking the pictures off the camera til now, but here's the before and after shot of the gaunts, after cleaning them over at Sir James' place this spring, watching them re-rust in my living room, and then cleaning one again before taking this photo.
(http://ed.toton.org/photos/2012/weapons/b3306.jpg) (http://ed.toton.org/photos/2012/weapons/b3306b.jpg)
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I'm wondering what the cause of your rust is now. I haven't seen any rust on the RemOil sprayed bit, as of yesterday when I packed it up and shipped it. Not sure if it's shadows, but it looks darker around the cuff. Hmm...
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I think a lot of mine is from the steel wool leaving steel particles behind. I had to really press it hard around those rivets, so I'll bet there was more left behind there to rust.
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I think a lot of mine is from the steel wool leaving steel particles behind. I had to really press it hard around those rivets, so I'll bet there was more left behind there to rust.
That makes perfect sense. If you didn't clean the other one yet, bring it by sunday and you can give it a whirl with the ultra-fine scotchbrites, and see how that does.
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Oh, I cleaned both, I just took the picture at that point for comparison.