ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Leganoth on 2011-07-29, 07:46:27
-
http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-4418-crusader-great-helmet.aspx (http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-4418-crusader-great-helmet.aspx) < what i have
it came with no liners on the inside >.<
found this though dunno if itll work though, http://steel-mastery.com/index.php?&model=product_detail&category_id=39&parent_id=17&product_id=107 (http://steel-mastery.com/index.php?&model=product_detail&category_id=39&parent_id=17&product_id=107)
-
Yeah, I'd imagine that it would work. There are many ways to do liners for the helms. I usually cheat and just use some foam padding in the helm itself.
But I'm tempted to pick up that set too. One of the things I've been wanting to do is make or buy a shoulder-mantle like that, so I can pad my shoulders a little. The collar helps keep the mail off your neck, and the aketons back in the day had a similar collar (this predates wearing a gorget).
I need to see how shipping to the US works there.
-
hmmm i dunno, doesnt seem very historical to me. i would think you would want to make a liner and rivet it into place. but if that open is out than hmmm
Sir Brian has this helmet you posted, and i think if you look back in the armoury section you can find out how he did his liner.
-
hmmm i dunno, doesnt seem very historical to me. i would think you would want to make a liner and rivet it into place. but if that open is out than hmmm
Sir Brian has this helmet you posted, and i think if you look back in the armoury section you can find out how he did his liner.
yeah i know, lots of different materials just dont know what to get for it
-
Here's the tutorial I used to make mine (and I believe Sir Brian used it as well). Easy to make even for knights with limited sewing skills ;)
http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gallery/helm_liner/helm_liner.htm (http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gallery/helm_liner/helm_liner.htm)
-
Not sure if the instructions in the link would work on a great helm
-
why not? most helmets i have seen in period have an interior liner. all you would have to do is make the liner (maybe shorter than the bassinet version) i would remove the rivets on the helmet at the area that the liner should attach to and put in a leather brow band and then re-rivet the holes. then sew the liner to the brow band
-
The Red Knight is correct with the link he provided as the one I relied upon most when I made the liners for two of my helms. They are pretty simple to make with a basic sewing machine. Sir Wolf is also correct in that liners are very period and most were sewn into the helm but I recommend you use Velcro to attach it to the helm so you can wash the liner occasionally unless you intend always wear an arming cap to soak up the sweat! ;)
…which reminds me I have to wash my helm liner. If I get to it this weekend I’ll post a picture of my liner in and out of the helm, oh and cotton or linen material for the shell and cotton batting for the stuffing is the most comfortable IMO. ;)
-
Not sure if the instructions in the link would work on a great helm
I added a small "pillow" inside the liner to fill in the space between the top of my head and the peak of my sugarloaf. For a flat-topped helm, I would use the tutorial to make the sides and back of the liner, then make a separate piece for the top and sew/tie them together. One word of caution, I really stuffed my liner full, and while it fits wonderfully over a bare head, I'm going to have to take some stuffing out to account for my new coif.
-
Hmm i see, what would be better though cotton or linnen as a liner?
-
I'd go with linen because it breathes better than cotton, avoid poly or poly fill at all costs cause I got a gambeson thats filled with it and it's HOT as hell.. I'm kinda lucky my kettle helm came with a leather liner though.
Heres a pic of an actual historical padding for a great helm:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/HJRK_B_44_-_Tournament_helmet_padding%2C_1484.jpg/485px-HJRK_B_44_-_Tournament_helmet_padding%2C_1484.jpg)
-
that if i am not mistaken is for a jousting helmet. more like the frog mouth than what he has pictured of his great helmet
-
It's a 15th century padding though so I'm not exactly sure, though it appeared on wikipedia under great helm and I believe great helms were still used for jousting in those days. It probably COULD work for a great helm, of course you could always go the way and buy an arming cap that you can wear under the helm.
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0313 (http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0313)
This can give you an idea of what kind of padding would work for a great helm as well
http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1278.html (http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1278.html)
-
Definitely use natural fibers for both material and filler, unless you want to pass out!
-
Hmm i see. Also I've been looking into getting horns or plumes for my great helm or somthing to mount ontop of it, where did you gets get yours? I see in some of your pics you have something on top?
-
For helmet crests, I think we've all found different solutions, from wooden sculptures, to plastic, to leather, to paper mache. There's a lot of different ways to make them, depending on the look you want.
-
Here are some pictures of what I came up with for mounting several different crests onto my same kind of great helm. Since the taking of these pictures I have added additional mounting holes for 4 different crests onto this one universal mounting board.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/Crest/Crest_007e.jpg)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/Crest/Crest_006e.jpg)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/Crest/Crest_005e.jpg)
Using this mounting board also has the added benefit of providing a means of easily securing the mantle and torse onto the helm with some decorative string. ;)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/Crest/Crest_004e.jpg)
-
as far as i know in later 15th century great helmets are definitely not used. early like right after the turn of the century they would be more like the pembridge styles.
-
Hmm i see. Also I've been looking into getting horns or plumes for my great helm or somthing to mount ontop of it, where did you gets get yours?
Here's the thread that showed how I made mine. I chime in about halfway down page 1.
http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,495.0.html (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,495.0.html)
-
that liner also looks like it could have been used in a great bassinet.
-
I was thinking more along the lines of feathered horns or just horns such as this.
http://img.hexus.net/v2/gaming/screenshots_pc/med2k/med2king_large_9.jpg (http://img.hexus.net/v2/gaming/screenshots_pc/med2k/med2king_large_9.jpg)
-
I was thinking more along the lines of feathered horns or just horns such as this.
http://img.hexus.net/v2/gaming/screenshots_pc/med2k/med2king_large_9.jpg (http://img.hexus.net/v2/gaming/screenshots_pc/med2k/med2king_large_9.jpg)
Cool!
-
^ But i wouldnt know how to make such a thing and then put it onto my helm
-
Check out this link and watch the videos (the techniques can easily be applied to horns). The cloth he uses at the end is simply bedsheets cut into strips and soaked in white glue. At that point, you could paint the horns, or cover them in nicer cloth/thin leather. The horns should be pretty strurdy, but also light. As far as attchments go, I would use rare earth magnets (the stronger the better) I'll tell you from personal experience, you REALLY have to pull to get those magnets to come off a helmet! Hope this helps.
http://www.gourmetpapermache.com/Video_Page.html (http://www.gourmetpapermache.com/Video_Page.html)
-
Ah yes much help, should work good I'll get started eventually once i get the stuff
-
Brought my helm to school so my gf could measure for a torse and start that, some bastards picked up my helm and lunch and scratched the pount of the cross covering your chin down >:(!!
-
Man, that's not cool. The good news is that your armor can look a little more battle-worn once it has some nicks and dents. :)
-
Battle-worn is a good look.
-
^ But i wouldnt know how to make such a thing and then put it onto my helm
The best place to get dragon horns is to cut them from the carcass of a recently slain dragon.
But as for finding the dragon....
-
I know I am coming to this thread rather late but I think I have the answer on the liners for you. I do not beleive early great helmets were themselves padded, instead the wearer had a padded coif under the maille, or a padded roll attached to the coif on the outside, a skull cap with padding above or under the maille coif layer, or a small bascinet helmet that was padded under the great helm.
Skull caps are seen in the 12th century straight through the GH era. The bascinet is a 14th century helmet. The padded roll is seen in 12th and 13th century effigies.
If you look here you can see both the small helmet and padded roll options http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm (http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm)
If you look at this Maciejowski bible image (1250) you see the point is back the the knight in front has a skull cap under the maille.
(http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf10/otm10vc&d.gif)
Effigies of early crusaders show the padded roll I mention:
-
I know I am coming to this thread rather late but I think I have the answer on the liners for you. I do not beleive early great helmets were themselves padded, instead the wearer had a padded coif under the maille, or a padded roll attached to the coif on the outside, a skull cap with padding above or under the maille coif layer, or a small bascinet helmet that was padded under the great helm.
Skull caps are seen in the 12th century straight through the GH era. The bascinet is a 14th century helmet. The padded roll is seen in 12th and 13th century effigies.
If you look here you can see both the small helmet and padded roll options http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm (http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm)
If you look at this Maciejowski bible image (1250) you see the point is back the the knight in front has a skull cap under the maille.
(http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf10/otm10vc&d.gif)
Effigies of early crusaders show the padded roll I mention:
Found this but still not sure if it would fill the helm http://steel-mastery.com/en/padded-armour/padded-hoods-and-caps/linen/flax-liner-for-great-helm (http://steel-mastery.com/en/padded-armour/padded-hoods-and-caps/linen/flax-liner-for-great-helm)
-
All of the above are fantastic solutions to your lining or padding problem, and all will work.
The most common and simplest being the leather liner or spider, similar in shape and function to Sir Brians liner although much cruder.
As James has suggested, the great helm would always have been worn over, at least, a maille coif and more often than not a cervellier (secret or small skull cap) as well.
Earlier great helms, and flat topped pot helms, were worn over a mail coif that was fitted over a flat topped arming or padded coif.
I think, if worn under a maille coif, the coif and ring from Steel Mastery, once the ring was adjusted to fit your helm and attached to the coif, would give the right, flat topped effect.
If you intend to use the helm for full contact fighting then I would deffinitely go with fitted, high density, soft foam (such as pipe lagging or refrigeration insulating material) shaped and fitted in such a way that it feels like a motorcycle helmet when it`s on. To draw the eye away from the modern materials, the foam should be covered with soft linnen or cotton. Thus giving a much more comfortable surface against your face and head.
As with most armour items there will always be a certain amount of tinkering and tailoring to make them work well. You will also find you try a few different solutions before finding the one that is suitable or comfortable for you.
Good luck.
G.
-
Found this but still not sure if it would fill the helm http://steel-mastery.com/en/padded-armour/padded-hoods-and-caps/linen/flax-liner-for-great-helm (http://steel-mastery.com/en/padded-armour/padded-hoods-and-caps/linen/flax-liner-for-great-helm)
From a historical standpoint I have my doubts about this arrangement of a padded hood with the ring on it. If you want to make just the ring you just need fabric and something to stuff it with (I used raw cotton for my hat like this shape). General rule is to add about 10 inches to the ring length so when you stuff it, it still fits your head. So if you have a 24 inch head make a 34 inch long ring; you can always cut it down if it is too big.
-
Without that ring on it, it looks like it could be something you'd find in a great helm; I've always been of the mind that one would wear a coif, half helm or bascinet and then the great helm over all of that.
-
*Bump*
I bumped this for Sir Nathan who asked about my mounting method of my crest(s). Since it also has some other great posts about liners I thought it was worth a revisit to the top of the topic listing. 8)
-
Speaking of liners, I picked up a couple of bascinet liners that I might be able to make work with the great-helms. The camp-foam works, but isn't very historical. :) Something padded with linen will be nicer in the long-run.
-
Yeah the camp foam isn't very absorbent either! :P
-
There is actually evidence for the ringed arming coif. I will have a look and link it here.
G.
-
I know I am coming to this thread rather late but I think I have the answer on the liners for you. I do not beleive early great helmets were themselves padded, instead the wearer had a padded coif under the maille, or a padded roll attached to the coif on the outside, a skull cap with padding above or under the maille coif layer, or a small bascinet helmet that was padded under the great helm.
Skull caps are seen in the 12th century straight through the GH era. The bascinet is a 14th century helmet. The padded roll is seen in 12th and 13th century effigies.
If you look here you can see both the small helmet and padded roll options http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm (http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm)
If you look at this Maciejowski bible image (1250) you see the point is back the the knight in front has a skull cap under the maille.
(http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf10/otm10vc&d.gif)
Effigies of early crusaders show the padded roll I mention:
Found this but still not sure if it would fill the helm http://steel-mastery.com/en/padded-armour/padded-hoods-and-caps/linen/flax-liner-for-great-helm (http://steel-mastery.com/en/padded-armour/padded-hoods-and-caps/linen/flax-liner-for-great-helm)
In fact the evidence is in Leganoths link.They are wearing ring topped coifs the would give the appearance of a flat topped coif when worn under a maile coif.This would have given perfect ( as far as medieval people where concerned) protection under a pot helm or early great helm.
G.
-
Sir Nathan:
These attached edited pictures with the red arrows show the Jack Nuts that I inserted into the base of the crest mount. I ensured to epoxy the 1/4 X 20 sized Jack Nut since it didn't completely penetrate the mount. You don't have to use a Jack Nut and can epoxy really any type of nut you want into the mount although I would avoid those Brazilian nuts as they are just 'odd' looking! ;)
The mount is secured to the helm by two 1/4 X 20 bolts coming through the top of the helm into the Jack Nuts in the mount.
Here is a video as well on how Jack Nut tools work.
Installation of "Jack Nuts" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlcXXx1cxWU#)
-
nice
-
Well those jack nuts are just cool! Might be time I get off my tail and finish up my mantle/crest/torse... thanks for the motivation!
-
Speaking of great helm liners does anyone have suggestions on how to line a topfhelm? I mean mine does have that but I want to remove the liner and put something in so when I fight the helm doesnt move around and block my vision. I didnt have this problem with my old coif and arming cap but I DO with my new coif and arming coif. Guess it's cause it's thinner and not as tight on me.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426939_4382309279165_442064792_n.jpg)
-
Guess it's cause it's thinner and not as tight on me.
There's your answer. :) Add some more padding to tighten the fitment. It's harder to get a snug fit since it's a "half helmet" of sorts.
-
I think I am going to get a thicker arming cap, as the padded coif I got isnt as thick as my other arming cap. I dont want to wear that foam cap though, I would rather have a period linen one. Just need one that will cover my forehead as well because that would add the padding I need in the front. Arming cap would be cheaper than a coif anyway, anyone know where to get any good ones?
-
Here, he made this out of a padded moving blanket, but you could use whatever you want. I should have done this! Seems pretty simple:
http://mailmaker.tripod.com/paddedcoif/paddedcoif.html (http://mailmaker.tripod.com/paddedcoif/paddedcoif.html)
(http://mailmaker.tripod.com/paddedcoif/ccoifa.jpg)
(http://mailmaker.tripod.com/paddedcoif/ccoifpf.jpg)
-
Sir Ian, that'd make it easier than cutting out a pattern and sewing it up, except those things usually stink of...stuff. lol
-
Sir Ian, that'd make it easier than cutting out a pattern and sewing it up, except those things usually stink of...stuff. lol
You can pick up a brand new moving blanket probably big enough for 2 or 3 coifs for around $5 .. but it's going to be hotter than linen.
-
Thats actually what I have, cept mines not padded thickly at all, it's just got like one layer of cotton felt I believe. I guess I could make another or I could just get another arming cap to wear under it to double the padding to make wearing my topfhelm fit better.
-
Sir Ian, that'd make it easier than cutting out a pattern and sewing it up, except those things usually stink of...stuff. lol
You can pick up a brand new moving blanket probably big enough for 2 or 3 coifs for around $5 .. but it's going to be hotter than linen.
Yea. That's not going to work for me. I get heated as it is in linen and cotton. lol
Still...I am unhappy with my current padded arming wear setup. So bulky.
-
Guys, don't get wrapped around the 'moving blanket' aspect so to speak. The pattern is still good. Just take linen and sandwich cotton batting in between and you get the same padded coif, just way more breathable.
-
That is predicated on the ability to sew- I'm no seamstress unfortunately. :(
-
Yeah that would work but my great helm is literally like an empty bucket, lol id need a good few inches of padding on the top just to get my eyes to the slits
-
Leganoth, you might want to consider using foam to start the padding process, mold it into a cup that your head would fit (while wearing a coif) in at the top of the helm. Then if you were so inclined, sew the padding over (or under, depending on how you look at it) the foam so that no one'll ever know its there but you.
I suspect Ulrich will want to try the same with his transitional helm as it is a bucket top too.
-
Helm & great helm are super protective together. I've heard great stories.
-
should there be any padding for the nose? i hope so lol