ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2011-06-15, 15:46:02
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An interesting article by Albion about why they chose to hot-peen their tangs.
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords-functional.htm (http://www.albion-swords.com/swords-functional.htm)
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I read that years ago and it makes perfect sense, not just from a historical stance (although I am sure they might've tried the threads had they thought of them- they are a modern invention, no?) but from a safety standpoint.
I'm not all that enthused about the sleeved/threaded pommels either (a la earlier Atrim, Tinker, H/T or VA/Atrim offerings) but they do have their uses (like cross, grip and/or pommel customizations/changeouts) and if the sleeved nut is recessed then it makes for a better aesthetic, imho.
Overall, I prefer a hot-peened assembly, as it was done in history.
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Yeah, most of the sword types they're replicating were peened historically. Though there are some cases of threaded pommels, I'm just not sure what period. I remember hearing about cases in judicial duels where the rules called for each opponent to throw a weapon at the beginning of the fight, so some folks would unscrew the pommel and throw that.
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Really? I have never heard of that...why not throw an ax or dagger? What happened to the weapon sans pommel?
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I'm sure Bill could elaborate, I think I heard it from him.
The idea was that you'd come into the fight with a couple of weapons, and would have to throw something. So by tossing the pommel, you could keep your dagger ready for when the fight gets past the swords and down to grappling. I'm guessing these cases had the sword specifically designed to easily lose the pommel and still be held together. But I don't know for sure.
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That's very interesting...I wonder at what's behind the 'throwing' aspect. Did it replace the throwing down of the gauntlet?
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Throwing the gauntlet was used as form of making a challenge. The thrown weapon thing would take place at the start of the actual fight. I'm not sure where the rule started or what region it was in. It would be interesting to read more detail on these sorts of practices.
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Seems almost like the ringing of the bell, only the bell is in the hands of the combatants...there are contemporary processes that seem to strengthen the argument- like the disrobing of boxers just prior to a bout, or MMA fighters who take off their shirts just prior to a fight (if you'll notice, both sets of combatants don a robe or shirt immediately thereafter- a mental cue that the martial spirit should accede to the civil one if you will) - that has always been my understanding of it, ymmv.
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It's shown in the Gladiatoria fechtbuch, and is a bit of an oddity. No one 100% knows the reasoning for it, but the most likely reason is that in certain Germanic judicial duels it was required by law that one of the combatants (presumably the challenger) must cast a weapon before the fight begins. (Most likely a tie back to Odin casting his spear.) The spear was the typical thrown weapon, but the Gladiatoria treatise shows unscrewing the pommel, presumably as a way of "playing to the rules" so that you didn't have to get rid of a full weapon.
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Oh, and as Ed said, threaded tangs were used throughout history, though they were rare until later time periods.
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It's shown in the Gladiatoria fechtbuch, and is a bit of an oddity. No one 100% knows the reasoning for it, but the most likely reason is that in certain Germanic judicial duels it was required by law that one of the combatants (presumably the challenger) must cast a weapon before the fight begins. (Most likely a tie back to Odin casting his spear.) The spear was the typical thrown weapon, but the Gladiatoria treatise shows unscrewing the pommel, presumably as a way of "playing to the rules" so that you didn't have to get rid of a full weapon.
The idea was that you'd come into the fight with a couple of weapons, and would have to throw something. So by tossing the pommel, you could keep your dagger ready for when the fight gets past the swords and down to grappling. I'm guessing these cases had the sword specifically designed to easily lose the pommel and still be held together.
Very interesting, it may seem that threaded or peened tanged swords vary from region and certain judicial dueling rules. This also may show that it was more towards the preference of the owner. Since Swords back in the day were a constantly manufactured item (the sword that had the most decorations or intricate designs were the most expensive). This is only my take on the threaded/peened pommel aspects of swords, this preference based on the customer's designs could also be applied towards pommel designs and blade shape (tapering, fullers and width) and cross guard shapes.
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I have a question about swords- I had read somewhere that swords were crafted for a specific user; one would commission a blade with measurements that coincided with the measurements of arm, hand as well as fighting style. Is this so?
I was thinking of having a custom blade commissioned and wondered about that; it brought the question to mind because there is a picture from the knighting ceremony where I'm just able to get my sword into the scabbard but it felt a bit too long for me.
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Well, we have to remember that there are lots of variations across regions as well as periods. It's possible they were speaking of eastern weapons. I'm not sure of what their traditions were.
But in most of medieval Europe, often the blade blanks were made in only a few places where there was good steel, and they'd be shipped all over. Final assembly would be done by a cutler. Much of the time, the customer could pick out which components they wanted, but they could also buy a clunker that was thrown together. Much like today, there were opportunities to go cheap, or spend more and get something custom.
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That makes sense...could've sworn it was a Western reference I'd read that in but I read so much...I don't always remember it correctly.
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Well, as Ed said, it depends greatly on what time period (and even what decade), as well as what region. It also depends on what class of person.
Yes, people did get fully custom weapons for themselves, but they also bought them "off the rack", or where issued a standard weapon, and all of these things go on throughout most of the medieval, renaissance, and pre-modern eras of the Western world. The one thing that did not happen was the idea of one bladesmith making weapons himself. It almost always was done where one guild made the blades, one made the hilt fittings, etc.
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I do recall that- but thanks for the reminder. We're spoiled, are we not? We have bladesmiths that do it all...and we have choices based on any number of factors!
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We're spoiled, are we not?
Sadly yes, that is a bad thing.
On the other hand, we all have the rare freedom of telling our bladesmiths what type of sword we want. That freedom doesn't come easily.
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:) i have a viking sword that had a threaded pommel with a nut. i took teh nut off, cut down the thread a bit and peened it down. suckers never coming off unless the rat tale breaks where the thread is welded onto the tang.
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I had a nice looking viking sword once...brass handled too. I was not in love with it at the time...then I saw someone else (Ulrich I think) with a similar one and found myself wanting it back. Weird, huh. lol
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I have a question about swords- I had read somewhere that swords were crafted for a specific user; one would commission a blade with measurements that coincided with the measurements of arm, hand as well as fighting style. Is this so?
I was thinking of having a custom blade commissioned and wondered about that; it brought the question to mind because there is a picture from the knighting ceremony where I'm just able to get my sword into the scabbard but it felt a bit too long for me.
I don't recall where I saw it, or if it was even historically based, but there is a "proper" size sword for each person. If I recall correctly, rest the sword in it's scabbard on the ground, on it's tip, and the pommel should be within 1" of your armpit.
The logic behind it is that some transitions between stances, unterhaus, etc, would catch the blade on the ground if the length was too long, and you'd lose reach if it was too short. And reach is one of the key factors to winning, so to give up reach is to put yourself at a disadvantage before the battle began.
I vaguely, think, that I sort of remember something else similar to the hilt of the sword should be the size of your forearm (elbow to wrist), but I am MUCH more fuzzy on that than the "overall length" measurement guide.
I don't remember anything about the hand or fighting style playing a part in the sword, though.
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I don't recall where I saw it, or if it was even historically based, but there is a "proper" size sword for each person. If I recall correctly, rest the sword in it's scabbard on the ground, on it's tip, and the pommel should be within 1" of your armpit.
Do you know where this is from? I can only think of two thing similar. The first is Filipo Vadi of the 15th century, where he states that his specialized sword for judicial duelling in armor was to be the distance from the ground to your armpit, and that the hilt and the crossguard should be the length of your forearm, but this is not a typical sword. There are also a couple of 16th century Italian rapier masters that preferred longer blades and stated the exact same length measurement (Capoferro is one of those masters).
Either way, there is no general perfect length for all styles, cultures and times. Certain historical fencing masters had preferences for specific lengths (such as George Silver who believed the way to determine your perfect blade length was put your off-hand straight forward and put your sword in the other hand and pull the hilt back to your shoulder, and the blade should end at the off hand), but even they all disagreed half of the time. Even the ones from the same period. :)
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When I read that 'pommel should be within 1" of your armpit' - I wondered if you meant kneeling or standing- standing would mean a rather large and long sword.
The one Bill mentions from George Silver is what I recall reading, although I did not recall that it was him who'd said it. Thanks Bill!
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i remember something early on about a one handed weapon should be clear of the ground when you swing it down. have no idea where it came from.
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I don't recall where I saw it, or if it was even historically based, but there is a "proper" size sword for each person. If I recall correctly, rest the sword in it's scabbard on the ground, on it's tip, and the pommel should be within 1" of your armpit.
Do you know where this is from? I can only think of two thing similar. The first is Filipo Vadi of the 15th century, where he states that his specialized sword for judicial duelling in armor was to be the distance from the ground to your armpit, and that the hilt and the crossguard should be the length of your forearm, but this is not a typical sword. There are also a couple of 16th century Italian rapier masters that preferred longer blades and stated the exact same length measurement (Capoferro is one of those masters).
Either way, there is no general perfect length for all styles, cultures and times. Certain historical fencing masters had preferences for specific lengths (such as George Silver who believed the way to determine your perfect blade length was put your off-hand straight forward and put your sword in the other hand and pull the hilt back to your shoulder, and the blade should end at the off hand), but even they all disagreed half of the time. Even the ones from the same period. :)
Sorry, I don't remember for sure. Vadi and Capoferro both sound like they might be it, I think John Clements quoted them when he gave a class I took? If I had to guess between the two, I would lean towards Vadi, since it was a longsword class. If it wasn't Clements, it might have been at Longpoint 2011. That's the only two classes I've taken thus far.
The only fechtbuch I have is Flos Duellatorum by Fiore, the others are all modern authors, though maybe they quoted someone too.
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I guess I must be contrary to most of the masters then, I prefer shorter blades. I also prefer slashing blades to thrusting blades. My favorite sword is the Falchion, it's primarly a slasher but the point wasn't totally ignored making it work for thrusting too. I'm also not much for fighting fair, ussually I get in real close and throw in punches and grapples too, but we are replicating battlefield fighting not the dueling or gentleman's sword fighting ;)
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I had a nice looking viking sword once...brass handled too. I was not in love with it at the time...then I saw someone else (Ulrich I think) with a similar one and found myself wanting it back. Weird, huh. lol
(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2955/1001302s.jpg) Is this the sword you're talking about? It's basically just a prop sword, very heavy and handles like crap. Good for making good pics with though and parts of it are rusting...
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No, not that one...and maybe it was Wolf in his 10th or 11th C garb. I recall that one as I have one just like it....as you say, a prop sword and nothing more...but here's the one I'm talking about (went to Wolf's Knight page and grabbed it).
(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47/reenactthis/Man%20E%20Faces/DSCN0927-2.jpg)
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its my deepeeka brass hilted viking sword. i got it vs the del tin because A it was cheaper and B it had as much wrong with it vs the original one as the Del Tin version did. this is the sword that i peened down the tang on. mine is pretty sold, a tad blade heavy but i would hit you with it and not worry too much save the rat tale breaking where the screw is welded on.
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That's the one...it was pretty, I'll give it that. Wish I hadn't sold it!
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Peening is where it's at. 8)
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Ulrich, I had that same sword, by the way....forgot where I got it from, someone on ebaY though. As you said, heavy, but pretty for pics. I ended up picking up another one just for kicks...same deal, heavy and pretty. But not up close. lol