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Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2011-05-19, 19:05:52
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Interesting discussion on the AA about the colée or buffet in the accolade ceremonies in the SCA:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=101290&sid=87eb67c862459a1a94f8bbb5a08b01d0 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=101290&sid=87eb67c862459a1a94f8bbb5a08b01d0)
The thread begins with a nice photo of a sword flexing over the new knight's head. :)
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Here's a buffet/colée from further down in that thread:
Buffet of a new Knight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zGnwy_zOwc#)
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I doubt he'll ever forget that...is that what we're going with?
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I doubt he'll ever forget that...is that what we're going with?
Not necessarily. We still have time to decide what we'd like to do at the first knighting. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable hitting you guys, and technically the "3 strokes of the sword" evolved out of this and replaced it. But I'm still open to discussing it.
Though as far as buffets go, I like what one guy said on that thread:
"If the gods ever allow me into a place where I may administer the buffet I will deliver an open-handed slap to the face. It's loud, it doesn't do permanent damage, the knight gets to wear some welts for a couple of hours...and it's humiliating. It should be. It's the terminal humiliation in a long line that the knight has endured to be where s/he is and after which no other must be borne except by the knight's own choice. "
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momma said knock you out... and then be friends with you ahhaha
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For what it's worth, we in the Fiat Lux perform a Culee for our freshly stamped knights. (Those who witnessed Sir Jonathan's knighting a while back I'm sure remember/wince at the memory of Sir Barton's culee!) I find it rather important and memorable, as just about every member I've spoken with about it distinctly remembers theirs. (I chipped a tooth with mine. Barton's got quite the slap on 'im!)
One of the important things I think it symbolizes is the understanding of the mentor/mentored relationship. Though one is joining a peerage as an equal, there's still an unspoken chain of... not so much command as deference. One's sponsor is, in all things, their mentor. They're the one who brought them into knighthood, they're the one who taught them, raised them, educated them, and guided them. It's sort of the final test of trust and character - you know it's coming, and it's a sign of maturity, respect, and self-restraint to allow it to happen and embrace afterwards. I can't remember how many people shyed away from joining up because of the looming "threat" of the culee. When everything's said and done, though, it's just a capstone to a larger foundation of sacrifice, growth, and respect that was far longer, far more arduous, and endured for far greater gain.
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I would not take a chipped tooth kindly, I assure you. But some welts? Not a problem for me...as I stated before, it'll not soon be forgotten, which is the point, as Sir James also stated. I'm actually excited at the prospect of being knighted...it is part of the ceremony.
So you had some people shy away because of the colee/culee? Which is correct?
Sir Edward...I can tell you with no dissembling that I would not take it ill if you delivered such a buffet to my face; I would like to think I speak for all of my brothers but in something so...personal, I defer to their individual views.
I only ask that you remove your mailed gauntlet; I should not like a chipped tooth, that would be too memorable- and would raise the ire of my lady wife. I think I fear her anger more than any blade. lol
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So you had some people shy away because of the colee/culee? Which is correct?
I don't think there's any one correct spelling. It comes from an older version of French from the period. In googling it a bit, I had seen it spelled colé, colée, collé, and collée. I wouldn't be surprised if the "u" is just as common.
Technically if we do the "adoubement" (or "dubbing") with the sword, it's sufficient since that evolved out of the colee, around the 15th century or so. Before that, it was just the colee. The meaning of it has been altered by most modern groups though. It was more nebulous back in the day, more of a "this is the moment you become a knight" like the gavel in a courtroom, along with a statement or phrase like "be valiant!" Like a small right of passage. It would immediately be followed by the new knight mounting up and charging the quintain.
The SCA (and the Fiat Lux I believe) add a phrase along the lines of "let this be the last time you receive dishonor without a response" or something similar. And of course in KOH they say something like "and that is so that you will remember it!" -- Both are modern additions, as those connotations weren't present in period. Though the latter, from KOH, is closer since the period sources tend to refer to the colee as a strike that won't soon be forgotten, which I think can be taken both to refer to the strength of the blow as well as the purpose of it. But I think both work well, and of course they make it more understandable to modern folks who might be witnessing it.
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Hmm. I call light. :D
If and when my time comes, I'd like to avoid any blows to the face; I've had a few thousand dollars worth of dental work in the last couple years, including a refacing which I've lost twice - once in karate, and once in SCA combat - and I still have a root canal and two crowns left to go. I'd prefer to not potentially increase my dental bill if I can avoid it.
The chest is fine, as long as it's not directly on center and is more towards either shoulder. It's a medical thing, which I won't go into online. :(
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Ask Duke Uther Schiemann Der Hunt (http://www.sigurgata.org/wiki/Uther_Schiemann_Der_Hunt) of the SCA, 8 time King of the West, how to do it.
"Bow your head.
Know, now that you are made a Knight,
that you must aid the defenseless,
seek justice for those of every station,
and maintain the honor of Knighthood.
Let this blow remind you that Knighthood
shall bring you pain as well as honor"
(http://www.bryanhaileyphotography.com/img/v12/p192052105-3.jpg)
;)
-Ivan
(2 Things: Note the studied look on Duke Hauoc Bender's face; and the man being Knighted, Sir Kennric, asked for Uther to "really hit him")
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The AA thread that I posted also contained a video (WMV format, not youtube) showing what can happen if the slap hits just right to disrupt a lingual nerve. The dude looked drunk afterward, and needed help to remain upright after they picked him up off the ground.
I'm cool with strikes to the shoulder. :)
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If you leave on your gauntletes, I'm leaving on my helmet ;)
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Sir Edward...I can tell you with no dissembling that I would not take it ill if you delivered such a buffet to my face;
I believe that line right there sums up the Fiatian perspective on the culee. To be able to take something like that - quite literally an undefended attack - with no ill bearing, malice, or anything short of respect is the final trial of Knighthood. After all, part of our Oath involves the line "To strike and to spare." The culee is the definition of the judgement required for such an oath.
As for the chipped tooth, that was partially my fault. I was in the process of setting my jaw, and the slap clacked my lower jaw's canine against the upper jaw's, resulting in an unintentional sharpening of that tooth. I've actually opted not to get it fixed as it isn't all that obvious, and (strange as it may sound,) it's made the tooth more effective at its' job. Kinda symbolic about how becoming a knight has made me a better man, in all things - even eating!
Also, for reference, it was with a simple leather glove, not an open-handed slap or anything like that.
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Well either way works for me. Just let me know the prior to the ceremony which it will be so I can clench my teeth before the strike. ;)
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Same here...don't wanna get caught off-guard thinking it will be a buffet to the chest/shoulder and I get five laid across the face! Talk about a look of shock lol
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I'd say a glove-slap (no bony fingers involved), or a shoulder-punch kind of thing would be OK. But I'll leave it to you guys as to what you'd like.
So you had some people shy away because of the colee/culee? Which is correct?
After some googling, "colée" is how it's spelled in "The knight in History" by Frances Gies. It seems to be the most common spelling I'm running into online.
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Well I think you did admirably...and the three taps to the shoulders is what we all know to be part of the knighting process.
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Well I think you did admirably...and the three taps to the shoulders is what we all know to be part of the knighting process.
Yeah, I think it worked out pretty well. Since the adoubement with the three taps evolved out of the colee, it's just fine. I tried to make the taps nice and solid, pressing downward. I don't know how well you two could feel that through the armor.
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Well, I felt them so that's saying something.
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A good kick up the arse also works well lol
G
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Well I think you did admirably...and the three taps to the shoulders is what we all know to be part of the knighting process.
I watched the kids knighting ceremony, and noticed the queen goes head, right shoulder, left shoulder. The 3 taps to the shoulder is what I'm used to seeing as well, so the queen's ceremony struck me as different. Is it because VARF is an Elizabethan period-based ceremony?
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I'm not entirely sure. I haven't seen anything so far that describes in detail where the taps should occur. From what I understand it evolved out of the colee with an intermediate stage of having a strike with the sword-flat, which presumably might still go to the neck or head.
Hmm, now this has me curious.
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I still want to see someone take it full-on...I know you didn't feel comfortable with that, Sir Edward (and truthfully, I was thankful for that lol) but who knows, that comfort level may change as time goes on and you settle into the KC role. ;)
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I got a black eye from my buffet. My knighting ceremony was christian based. The only exemption made for my religious beliefs was that I wasn't required to kneel.