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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Aiden of Oreland on 2014-02-18, 05:04:43
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I am looking to make multiple kits from different centuries. Currently, I am focusing on 13th and 14th. One of the problems about this is that it is really expensive to do both. So I am going to cheat a little and buy curtain parts of armor seen through multiple centuries that I can use for multiple kits. So again, currently I am looking to complete a 13th c. and 14th c. kits.
For as far as maille goes, I realize the style of the maille shirt, mittens, and head wear were different. But as for chausses, I know they were used in both centuries. A problem is I don't know what kind of style maille to get. Say full round ring riveted, flat ring riveted, or either flat or round ring riveted that is intergrated. On that note, I have been looking at chausses. I know allbeststuff has legging that are my size. I believe that on one of the posts it was said to be pretty good quality for Indian made maille. I could buy just chausses from there, but they do have an intergrated, as you could say, super hauberk. It has a attached coif w/ a ventail, attached mittens, and a pair of chausses. It is made from 9mm, 18 gauge rings. The mittens seem to have maille on both sides of the hand(why idk) so I would just knock off a side and add a good leather palm with a split in it to be able to slide my hands out. Of coarse this thing will be a pain in the butt to get into so I will have to split open the back of the hauberk and add leather and strings. I would also cut open the back of the chausses and do the same. This is also great because it will make my maille snug methinks. I am aware of capapie and other maille places but I don't exactly have loads of money. I am not quite sure if this will work out but i am crossing my fingers. If you want you can go to allbeststuff and examine their goods. http://allbeststuff.com/Riveted-Chain-Mail-Suit-Hauberk-Mittens-Coif-Ventail-Legging-Black-Finish (http://allbeststuff.com/Riveted-Chain-Mail-Suit-Hauberk-Mittens-Coif-Ventail-Legging-Black-Finish)
For my 13th century kit I am only going to buy one type of plate armor and that is the helm. I'm very interested in a Dargen Great helm. Royal Oak armory has a realllyyy nice one. Its $700 but man its beautiful.
I am not sure what too wear under my chausses. Do I get normal wool or linen chausses or padded ones. For foot wear I am a little stumped. Sir Ian if I am correct this is your field. I don't know what kind of shoes or boots one would wear under their chausses or 14th c. sabatons.
Okey, here comes the 14th century armor. I'm think of a kit after 1350. For the torso I had in mind a gambeson, maille haubergeon (that comes a little past the elbows), a coat of plates over that, and jupon over that. I am slightly confused about a jupon. Is it padded or is it just a short surcoat? What ever it is I plan to make one with straps or strings on the sides to make it just right. I am almost curtain that this was done. For the arms I may get, i guess, wisby gauntlets and splinted forearms. For my head, i was thinking about getting either a bascinet or secret helm w/ aventail under a Pembridge Greathelm. For the legs, i was thinking shin guards and soupcan knees that are flanged? Possibly sabatons too.
For all of the clothing or cloth products I plan to make myself. I want to really get into making my own things. Like leather making, sowing, etc. any links on how to make things like gambesons and such would be awesome. I have taken some notes from other threads and posts. Sadly i am completely befuddled on how to make braises... I have instructions but it isn't like the ones for my LEGO sets.
I think that about covers everything. Any ideas or suggestion are most appreciated. I want to spend wisely and have accurate kits. I have a good idea on different sites that I can buy a lot of this stuff on. Sorry if this is a bit of a mouthful.
Here are some pictures that I have looked at that seem to have some elements that I want.
As seen in figure 1, he has a coat of plates over his maille,( just like in figure 3 and what i believe in figure 2) also he has plate or splinted arms with, i guess you could say, splinted gauntlets, again like in figure 2 and 3. Figure 2 and 3 have those shin guards and soup can knees I was talking about. As seen in the top left of figure 2, he has a secret helm w/ aventail also with the maille coming up over the nose. I show figure 4 to demonstrate the helm and mittens. These are illustration pictures so they may be a bit off. Hold on, im having a bit of trouble with the pictures.
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Here they are
EDIT: oh never mind, stupid phone wont let me properly edit it. Ignore the photos
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I am looking to make multiple kits from different centuries.
Mwahahahaha!!!!!
I'll answer some of the questions in a bit when I have more time. :)
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Ya is this a historically accurate kit? Should I make this purchase? If so will I be able to use maille legs from the 13th century with my 14th c. kit?
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Ya is this a historically accurate kit? Should I make this purchase? If so will I be able to use maille legs from the 13th century with my 14th c. kit?
Check the first post, it's all the same pic.. I'm not sure what you mean with figure 2 and 3 yet
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That is figure one. This is figure 3
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This is figure 2 (sorry I am using a phone and I can't properly edit things brcause all of the images are too large)
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This is figure 4. Again, sorry that this is all sloppy.
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LOTS of info here. You might be better off splitting into two threads; one for 13th century kit, one for 14th century.
I am looking to make multiple kits from different centuries. Currently, I am focusing on 13th and 14th. One of the problems about this is that it is really expensive to do both. So I am going to cheat a little and buy curtain parts of armor seen through multiple centuries that I can use for multiple kits. So again, currently I am looking to complete a 13th c. and 14th c. kits.
The nice thing about earlier periods of armor is that you can start with an earlier kit, do the "full maille" thing, and pushing forwards in time means adding different bits of plate, while still retaining most (or all) of that maille base. I suggest starting with 13th, and then moving to 14th.
Of coarse this thing will be a pain in the butt to get into so I will have to split open the back of the hauberk and add leather and strings. I would also cut open the back of the chausses and do the same.
Don't do that. Chausses will pull on like, umm, stockings. They don't need to be split, and shouldn't be, unless they're the half-style designed to be open in the back. If you want to split the hauberk, you might want to do so in the front. You might have to tweak the split slightly for that ventail style. It will pull on just like a jacket. I am doing my hauberk the same way, but it'll be months or more before I get it finished since multiple demos are coming up and I have to shift focus.
It is also historical to have mail split and laced in the front, at least in some time periods. I have a good thread about that: http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.0 (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.0)
For my 13th century kit I am only going to buy one type of plate armor and that is the helm. I'm very interested in a Dargen Great helm. Royal Oak armory has a realllyyy nice one. Its $700 but man its beautiful.
Many things with armor, you get what you pay for. It is worth $700. Whether or not it is worth that price *for you*, specifically, is another question. That all depends what you'll use it for, how often, how authentic do you want your kit to be ... what else could you buy for $700 that may be more important (armor or not), should you save the $700 towards college / retirement / house, etc. It's a question only you can answer.
I am not sure what too wear under my chausses. Do I get normal wool or linen chausses or padded ones.
Wool is historical, linen is more comfortable for some. Padding isn't necessary unless you are fighting. I've seen crusader era with padded chausses *over* the mail.
I am slightly confused about a jupon. Is it padded or is it just a short surcoat?
I believe unpadded, but just a shortened surcoat. Surcoats shortened as time progresses.
What ever it is I plan to make one with straps or strings on the sides to make it just right.
Use laces and button holes. It will make it snug and is less obtrusive than buckles. I can't recall off the top of my head but there might be a few effigies which show the criss-cross on the side of mid-era surcoats.
As seen in figure 1, he has a coat of plates over his maille,( just like in figure 3 and what i believe in figure 2) also he has plate or splinted arms with, i guess you could say, splinted gauntlets, again like in figure 2 and 3.
These all look like coat of plates.
Figure 2 and 3 have those shin guards and soup can knees I was talking about.
Shin guards = schynbalds (when it is only the front of the leg)
Ya is this a historically accurate kit? Should I make this purchase? If so will I be able to use maille legs from the 13th century with my 14th c. kit?
Maille chausses, as far as I know, isn't "13th century or 14th century" except for a few details - wedge vs pin riveted, alternating solids or all riveted. The "style" (shaping) of the mail for chausses (legs) doesn't seem to change - at least not like plate does.
As seen in the top left of figure 2, he has a secret helm w/ aventail also with the maille coming up over the nose. I show figure 4 to demonstrate the helm and mittens. These are illustration pictures so they may be a bit off. Hold on, im having a bit of trouble with the pictures.
I believe they are all from the Osprey series books. I am sure at 3 of the 4 are. Graham Turner is the artist, and he specializes in medieval art for ~30 years. His illustrations are generally good. If you're going for good historical basis, they're fine. If you're going for living history quality, you always want to go to original sources... effigies, brasses, period artwork done in the time you are looking at.
It's somewhat like asking "do I want a 14th century look?" or "do I want to replicate an exact armor of the 14th century?". If it's the former, it sounds like you've got a good idea in mind. If it's the latter, you need to change what you base your kit off of.
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Wow Thanks! I think I will start with the 13h c. because it seems like a cheaper and simpler starter. I may get that helm eventually but methinks I will buy a less expensive one. Im saving the more "authentic" and high quality stuff for later in life. Back to the maille purchase, do you think that the maille from the allbeststuff link is a good choice? Could I get away with intergrated for the 14th century? I know maille was passed down through the family. I am more intereted in the leg protection that covers the front and back. What are those?
EDIT: ok ya I'll make a seperate post. After reading that sticky you made I am going to by undies first, then paddding. Oh and I will most definitly make seperate post for the 14th c. stuff.
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Could I get away with intergrated for the 14th century?
If you weren't concerned with 100% accuracy and wanted to cheat a little bit, you could always get a hauberk, coif, and mufflers as separate pieces, then cleverly layer them to look integrated when you wanted integrated, but still be able to have them as separate pieces if you needed them thusly. You might be able to get a little more mileage out of a single set at the price of sacrificing a little bit of accuracy. Of course, that's entirely up to you and how historical you want to be. Just throwing it out there. :)
I am more intereted in the leg protection that covers the front and back. What are those?
You mean in plate? Those would be greaves. Schynbalds just protected the the front and started appearing about mid-to-late-13th century. Some of them seemed to be nothing more than simple gutters, though the better ones probably would have had at least a little shaping to them.
Greaves, on the other hand, fully encased the leg and require very precise shaping in order to properly fit. They came in a little bit later than schynbalds.
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How about for the ring style? I know both times used riveted, but how about the round/full rings intergarted with the riveted. If it helps I am a German knight.
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Sir Aiden,
In my experience with Civil War reenacting and reenacting in general, it's generally better to start out with what ever is most representative and cheaper, then after you get some experience, work on building up your kit, or expanding to other kits. For example: I started out as Federal Infantry. The gear for Federal Infantry is readily available and inexpensive. I bought the machine stitched coat and the foreign made cartridge box. But now that I've been doing it for four years am I starting to replace foreign made leathers with stuff from particular craftsmen and am starting a Surgeon kit and a Cavalry kit. The trick is getting just enough to get involved, then amassing knowledge and experience from your comrades. Right now, I'm working on a 11th century Norman kit as it allows me to break into the hobby with little expense. Then as I talk with people, interact on the forum more, participate in events, etc. amassing knowledge, only then will I start to acquire new kits or upgrade my kit. Nothing educates you about a time period like reenacting.
My recommendation (based on reenacting other wars, so take that into account) is to start out with the cheaper kit and gradually work your way up, focusing mostly on learning. That way when you do get to pursue a 14th ce kit, you'll know exactly what you need and where to get it and can avoid costly mistakes (and you may even develop the right connections to purchase used items at cheaper prices). Hope that helps.
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Ok you're looking for the same Era as me essentially, I could help you out a bit with this. I'd suggest full leg chausses as the latest reference for tie in the back ones is about 1250 and the Dargen great helm wasn't used till at least 1280. I own the same great helm you want and it's the nicest helm I own pretty much:
(http://imageshack.com/a/img706/2323/sdargen.jpg)
I got it customized to have an aged appearance to look around 30 years old, and I use silk ribbons instead of leather ties to hold the liner in. The Dargen helm can be used all the way from 1280 till at least 1330. If you're doing a German knight you are in luck because they held onto the older designs longer than England and France did, plus the Dargen helm is German. This helmet is well worth the money but if getting other things is your first priority I would suggest getting the riveted maille first. The allthebeststuff maille is worth the price and is decent enough quality, you can even get a full set for less than what I payed for my hauberk ALONE. Had I known about this stuff I would of gotten this instead so take your chance to get all this cheaply. I'd suggest getting the round ring riveted with alternating flat punched rings as that can be used anywhere from the dark ages up to the late medieval. My maille is only period from about 1230 onward as it's wedge riveted. Round riveted just avoid the flat riveted round riveted as that stuff is pretty "cheese grater" like to gambesons due to the rivet heads being on both sides, the round stuff is more forgiving on the gambesons and the half solid link stuff even more so as theres less rivets. Just make sure you get the one with tapering sleeves as the bingo winged ones are unsightly and require tailoring like I did to mine. If you have any questions I sent you a friend request on Facebook and I can pretty much walk you through making a late 13th early 14th century kit quite easily.
Heres how my kit looks by the way http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/10596356694/#in/set-72157637221932746/lightbox/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/10596356694/#in/set-72157637221932746/lightbox/)
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Sir Aiden,
In my experience with Civil War reenacting and reenacting in general, it's generally better to start out with what ever is most representative and cheaper, then after you get some experience, work on building up your kit, or expanding to other kits. For example: I started out as Federal Infantry. The gear for Federal Infantry is readily available and inexpensive. I bought the machine stitched coat and the foreign made cartridge box. But now that I've been doing it for four years am I starting to replace foreign made leathers with stuff from particular craftsmen and am starting a Surgeon kit and a Cavalry kit. The trick is getting just enough to get involved, then amassing knowledge and experience from your comrades. Right now, I'm working on a 11th century Norman kit as it allows me to break into the hobby with little expense. Then as I talk with people, interact on the forum more, participate in events, etc. amassing knowledge, only then will I start to acquire new kits or upgrade my kit. Nothing educates you about a time period like reenacting.
My recommendation (based on reenacting other wars, so take that into account) is to start out with the cheaper kit and gradually work your way up, focusing mostly on learning. That way when you do get to pursue a 14th ce kit, you'll know exactly what you need and where to get it and can avoid costly mistakes (and you may even develop the right connections to purchase used items at cheaper prices). Hope that helps.
I entirely agree. I am thinking that I will save the 14th c. for when I begin to partake in SCA and other things of the sort. Luckily I have both the time and patience. So I will start putting aside money for the future!
Sir Ulrich,
Then i may just make the purchase after all. Nice kit btw. I will definitely contact you.
So another question still remains... What shall I wear on my feet? What type of shoes or boots should I wear?
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I'd go with viking leathercraft shoes with a lugged sole. The reason I suggest those is because you can lace the feet of the chausses between the lugs which makes it harder for them to come undone. http://www.vikingleathercrafts.com/period-footwear.html (http://www.vikingleathercrafts.com/period-footwear.html)
I use the 12th century boots myself I also have a pair of the 13th/14th ones but they were too thin at the toes which is why I switched to the 12th century ones, the toes are wider on those as I have wide feet. Could always get period turn shoes but they wear out quickly on rocks and pavement so the viking ones could suffice.
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I'd go with viking leathercraft shoes with a lugged sole. The reason I suggest those is because you can lace the feet of the chausses between the lugs which makes it harder for them to come undone. http://www.vikingleathercrafts.com/period-footwear.html (http://www.vikingleathercrafts.com/period-footwear.html)
I use the 12th century boots myself I also have a pair of the 13th/14th ones but they were too thin at the toes which is why I switched to the 12th century ones, the toes are wider on those as I have wide feet. Could always get period turn shoes but they wear out quickly on rocks and pavement so the viking ones could suffice.
A great suggestion, for no one will be really looking at my feet really. Let alone see past the chausses. I can save the time appropriate ones for my soft kit. So Ulrich, what is your opinion on the link I provided? Do you think it is a worth while purchase?
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Thats a decent hauberk but the problem is it's flat ring rather than round. Flat ring round riveted has issues with being a cheesegrater to gambesons. I would probably go after the round ring round riveted 8MM with solid flat punched rings. Thats the closest thing to 12th and 13th century maille around.
http://allbeststuff.com/c-medieval-chainmail-armor/c-chain-mail-shirt-coif-set/Round-Riveted-Links-with-Solid-Washers-Chain-Mail-Full-Suit-Body-Armor (http://allbeststuff.com/c-medieval-chainmail-armor/c-chain-mail-shirt-coif-set/Round-Riveted-Links-with-Solid-Washers-Chain-Mail-Full-Suit-Body-Armor)
I would go after that one as it has the integrated mittens but not the coif. Separate coifs did exist for the late 1200s and it's more versatile. The mittens will need the palm removed and leather added though. The sleeves also taper so you wont really have to tailor it. It also comes with rings to tailor the coif with and whatnot and it's a full set. All sold for a lower price than what my hauberk cost me ALONE.
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What kind of leather would one use for his mittens? And from where?
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Here is what Joe Metz had to say about mittens:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/2577352573/#in/set-72157606473530717 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8765199@N07/2577352573/#in/set-72157606473530717)
-Buy some lambskin/deerskin mittens that fit your hand, nothing fancy or expensive. I used unlined mittens. The main objective is to have the back of your hand covered so that the mail isn’t laying directly on your skin. If you are planning on sparring you best use suede welding mitts, but it will make it more difficult to slit the palm. I cut the elastic gathering out of my mittens; no modern fibers/nylon if I can help it!
-Fashion your mail so that it fits over the top of the mitten. This is relatively easy if you are familiar with working butted mail and a bit more challenging with riveted mail.
-To attach the mail to the mitten you have a couple options. You can sew the edge with a running stitch along the outer edge of the mitten. This is somewhat time-consuming, but really achieves the better result. The other option, if you are working with butted mail is to sink the outer rings of the mail itself through the leather of the mitten. This is what I did in the example above. Again, this works for butted mail because you can open the rings and close them again. Solid, riveted mail does not allow for this technique.
As for the slit in the palm, there apparently were various different configurations, vertical, horizontal, diagonal, close to the wrist and more distal. I picked the midline vertical slit because it seemed to be the most user friendly. The placement of the slit depends on the size of your hand. I was careful not to cut the slit too long which would leave the palm too “floppy”, but the opening has to be big enough to allow your hand to pass through while your arm is in the sleeve with a gambeson on. You also must consider how the mitten will hang on your wrist with the muffler pulled back.
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Flat ring round riveted has issues with being a cheesegrater to gambesons.
Aiden, I would regard this as a "your mileage may vary" comment. My hauberk, which I've had these past 10 or so years is a flat ring pin-riveted affair; I've not experienced the cheese grater issue that Ulrich has, despite having the same gambeson I've always had since I first got that hauberk- until he mentioned it, I didn't know it was an issue.
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Flat ring round riveted has issues with being a cheesegrater to gambesons.
Aiden, I would regard this as a "your mileage may vary" comment. My hauberk, which I've had these past 10 or so years is a flat ring pin-riveted affair; I've not experienced the cheese grater issue that Ulrich has, despite having the same gambeson I've always had since I first got that hauberk- until he mentioned it, I didn't know it was an issue.
Seconded, I've used primarily 9mm flat ring pin riveted mail (wedge only once) for the last few years and have not had any snags or tears from it.
I think the mail is half of the equation - the garment fabric is the other. Lower thread counts, or looser threads, probably makes it easier to snag. My IceFalcon gambeson and Revival Clothing Arming Coat are both doing fine; gambeson has had minimal use but my arming coat is my normal wear, and the only holes it has after 2 full seasons are the holes I put in it myself... and a couple I had to fix from arming points tearing through, but that's not mail related.
edit: Not to say that the wedge riveted isn't a smoother surface than the pin riveted - it is - the difference in surface texture on it is often negligible unless your arming garment is prone to snagging or tearing
As a side note, wedge riveted doesn't seem to catch on "itself" as much as pin does, either. Particularly important when doing the "mail dance" to get a hauberk/haubergeon on. The wedge can still do the "roll" catch, where it rolls up on itself, as can happen when it is tightly fitted, so it isn't flawless, but can be regarded as better. It's also more expensive, and if you go for stainless mail - considerably more expensive.
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I have both pin and wedge riveted mild steel maille, and while I like the wedge much more, the pin was fine to start with. Also I think the wedge riveted rings are a lot easier to rivet, which makes a difference if you want to do much tailoring and when you need to replace broken rings. Alternating solid rings was historical and will save you a few ponds of weight (and a lot of time if you plan to do any tailoring) as well as causing fewer snags and burst rivets.
As for the "cheesegrater" effect, I admit that the pin rivet rings catch on almost everything a lot more than wedged which has nothing to get caught on, but your fabric generally isn't going to get chewed up by it. I'd say that the comment reminds me that most cheap India made maille has poorly punched rings that leave sharp edges on the inner circumference. Those sharp edges on the rings are what chews up your linen.
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I should add here that Royal Oak Armory is who made my entire plate harness, helm to sabatons. Jeffrey Hildebrandt is really great to work with. Nice to see his work on someone else here.
Maybe he could be added to the links page as a resource?
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Alright, that solves my mitten problem. Also, from what you all tell me, I shouldn't really worry about my maille messing up my garment. Which brings me to the next part that must be figured out about my kit, where can I get a gambeson? Capapie has some, or I could go with a cheaper one from KoA. I would make one, but I am going to save all of the custom stuff for when I stop growing, save, my surcoat and additions to my maille. Speaking of surcoat, i have to get back to my heraldic design! In addition, I am actually surprised that it is not there scott.
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http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SNMC7108BK&name=13th+Century+Gambeson+%2D+Black (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SNMC7108BK&name=13th+Century+Gambeson+%2D+Black)
That one should work, I got an arming cap made by the same company and they dont use poly in their stuff only all natural materials. You could go the custom route but thats gonna cost at least 200 bucks as thats the amount I payed for mine.
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And I'd add that if you're at all handy with a needle, you could even make your own custom fitted gamby for well under 100 bucks.
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http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SNMC7108BK&name=13th+Century+Gambeson+%2D+Black (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SNMC7108BK&name=13th+Century+Gambeson+%2D+Black)
That one should work, I got an arming cap made by the same company and they dont use poly in their stuff only all natural materials. You could go the custom route but thats gonna cost at least 200 bucks as thats the amount I payed for mine.
Nice find as usual Sir Ulrich :)
And I'd add that if you're at all handy with a needle, you could even make your own custom fitted gamby for well under 100 bucks.
Ya, custom is usually incredibly cheaper, higher quality(if you do it right), and is the perfect fit for your body. But because of school, I don't have thebtime until the summer. Well, I suppose I could always wait till the summer to make the following: underwear(braies and shirt, chausses, gambeson, and arming cap.
But thats the thing scott, im startig out with easy projects, such as a surcoat, to get a good grip on using a needle and making these type of projects. Eventually I plan to have a fully custom, hand made, kit using all medieval methods. Maybe even have my own little forge and workshop ::) but anyway i want you all to know im not looking for costume cheap products. Actually, scott, would you happen to know how to make one? Let me add that if anyone has any knowledge or instructions on how to make anything for my kit i would MOST grateful. I know how to make a surcotte but thats about it. Im taking notes as we speak.
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Custom is usually cheaper - if you do it yourself
Custom is usually more expensive - if you commission it from someone else
Very important distinction :)
If you want to make a gambeson / arming garment, you can buy a pattern for it for about $25 (Charles de Blois Pourpoint).
Surcoats are pretty easy - I'd wager there are some patterns floating around.
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Custom is usually cheaper - if you do it yourself
Custom is usually more expensive - if you commission it from someone else
Very important distinction :)
If you want to make a gambeson / arming garment, you can buy a pattern for it for about $25 (Charles de Blois Pourpoint).
Surcoats are pretty easy - I'd wager there are some patterns floating around.
This is what i was given when discussing my heraldic design. The only thing I don't know how to do is put in an inside liner that is going to be green. http://cottesimple.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/draft_and_sew_a_surcotte.pdf (http://cottesimple.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/draft_and_sew_a_surcotte.pdf)
I almost forgot!! Im going to need a good, double wrapped, belt for my kit! I know by-the-sword has one that is pretty nice. I am planning to by Iron cross pewters for it. I want this because my heraldry has 3 Iron crosses on a chief. This is the belt: http://www.by-the-sword.com/p-5646-double-wrapped-sword-belt-200208.aspx (http://www.by-the-sword.com/p-5646-double-wrapped-sword-belt-200208.aspx)
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Custom is usually cheaper - if you do it yourself
Custom is usually more expensive - if you commission it from someone else
Very important distinction :)
If you want to make a gambeson / arming garment, you can buy a pattern for it for about $25 (Charles de Blois Pourpoint).
Surcoats are pretty easy - I'd wager there are some patterns floating around.
This is what i was given when discussing my heraldic design. The only thing I don't know how to do is put in an inside liner that is going to be green. http://cottesimple.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/draft_and_sew_a_surcotte.pdf (http://cottesimple.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/draft_and_sew_a_surcotte.pdf)
I almost forgot!! Im going to need a good, double wrapped, belt for my kit! I know by-the-sword has one that is pretty nice. I am planning to by Iron cross pewters for it. I want this because my heraldry has 3 Iron crosses on a chief. This is the belt: http://www.by-the-sword.com/p-5646-double-wrapped-sword-belt-200208.aspx (http://www.by-the-sword.com/p-5646-double-wrapped-sword-belt-200208.aspx)
Use that pattern, the lady who wrote it is very good.
For an inside green liner, you just make "two" surcoats. Green is inside, other color outside. You're lining it, so instead of sewing 2 pieces together at the sides, you're sewing 4. It's just like two pieces of paper over top of each other.
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Custom is usually cheaper - if you do it yourself
Custom is usually more expensive - if you commission it from someone else
Very important distinction :)
If you want to make a gambeson / arming garment, you can buy a pattern for it for about $25 (Charles de Blois Pourpoint).
Surcoats are pretty easy - I'd wager there are some patterns floating around.
This is what i was given when discussing my heraldic design. The only thing I don't know how to do is put in an inside liner that is going to be green. http://cottesimple.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/draft_and_sew_a_surcotte.pdf (http://cottesimple.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/draft_and_sew_a_surcotte.pdf)
I almost forgot!! Im going to need a good, double wrapped, belt for my kit! I know by-the-sword has one that is pretty nice. I am planning to by Iron cross pewters for it. I want this because my heraldry has 3 Iron crosses on a chief. This is the belt: http://www.by-the-sword.com/p-5646-double-wrapped-sword-belt-200208.aspx (http://www.by-the-sword.com/p-5646-double-wrapped-sword-belt-200208.aspx)
Use that pattern, the lady who wrote it is very good.
For an inside green liner, you just make "two" surcoats. Green is inside, other color outside. You're lining it, so instead of sewing 2 pieces together at the sides, you're sewing 4. It's just like two pieces of paper over top of each other.
Gotchya, and how would you suggest I do the designs on the surcoat. It will most likely have three white formee crosses on a green chief, and under that will be a green chevron. Should I add them after I complete my surcoat? Also would you suggest that I use heavy linen on the outside and a softer one on the inside for my maille. From the 2 surcoats my brother has perchased this seemed to be the case.
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If you want some help sewing period garments and have $35 to spend, get yourself a copy of The Medieval Tailor's Assistant. It gives you a ton of patterns and instructions on creating common medieval garments for kits from 1200 through 1500. It's very useful.
What year and country is your kit, and how historical are you trying to be?
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If you want some help sewing period garments and have $35 to spend, get yourself a copy of The Medieval Tailor's Assistant. It gives you a ton of patterns and instructions on creating common medieval garments for kits from 1200 through 1500. It's very useful.
What year and country is your kit, and how historical are you trying to be?
Medieval Tailors you say? I'll check that out. Late c. 13th Germany. I do want to be as historicaly accurate as possible.
In was looking at some flared Poleyns for my kit from windrose armory and they look pretty nice. They are also stainless steel which is a bonus because I never really have time to clean armor with high maintenance. I was also thinking of getting the matching elbows. Do Do you think I need cuisses for them? Also got me thinking that if I want to really go far and beyond with this kit i could get an early, simple, coat of plates which would be nice. As for the helmet, im set on that royal oak dargen helm. i cant find a finer helm on the market for a late 13th c. But im going to have to crack open the piggy bank after a few years for that. Oh! And prick spurs to complement my kit! I think this kit is going to end up being a $2000 dollar investment!(including helm). Not to bad. Just going to have to get an albion squire line sword. Have this kit for maybe 3-5 years then move onto my late 14th c. SCA kit.
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I found this doing a quick google search...
*** Web Link Removed due to potential copyright infringement *** - Sir Brian
If you don't mind reading off a computer screen, it should help a lot.
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I found this doing a quick google search...
*** Web Link Removed due to potential copyright infringement *** - Sir Brian
If you don't mind reading off a computer screen, it should help a lot.
Wow! This is a killer find! I'll be using my phone. I never use a computer lol. I'll definitly take some time later to look over this!
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Nice find! Will definitely use that resource.
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I found this doing a quick google search...
*** Web Link Removed due to potential copyright infringement *** - Sir Brian
If you don't mind reading off a computer screen, it should help a lot.
Wowee! Great find for all of us! This'll help me work out the stitching with the Bocksten Tunic I'm making.
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Just a reminder to everyone that this is a public forum and everyone should be careful that the web links you post are not potential copyright infringements as that reference source was. The first page had the copyright information clearly annotated so please be more cognizant of this before posting such links!
Besides we don't want the FEDS sniffing around our forum, they might find the bodies we have stashed. ;)
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I must have missed that. Yes, we need to be very careful about sharing copyrighted works!
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Ah yes, very well. My apologies for my negligence.
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In that case, here's another legal collection of web links I found awhile ago.
http://www.modaruniversity.org/briana/Briana3.htm (http://www.modaruniversity.org/briana/Briana3.htm)
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Ah yes, we don't want the gaurds to go lookig around here lol. Anyway, would any one know where to get an appropriate belt for my time period? As I said before, I saw the one on by-the-sword. But besides that one I can't seem to find a better belt. I was also thinking of placing formee crosses all along the belt, if anyone know where to get those.
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Late 13th century knights often wore two belts outside their surcoat, one to cinch the surcoat and and another to hang a sword. The former could be fairly simple, and in at least some effigies of 1250-1300 it's just a braided cord. The latter was usually more decorated, but still austere by 14th century standards, with tooling as much as brass mounts. Pitty there aren't more etant German effigies. At this point in history, not much differed between England, France and Germany armor-fashion-wise though, except that England had some cooler looking surcoats around 1250. It's not until the age of plate that you start to see a gap in technology, where the Germans notoriously hold on to the older styles longer than anyone else. Anyway here's a good illustration of a period English setup:
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/john_d_abernon_s24_r2734_large.jpg)
The most common belts in this period (meaning all belts, not necesarilly sword belts) were made of leather and average about 1" wide. There were wider and skinnier ones, but very wide belts (more than 1.5" wide) were for generally for women, with the exception of sword belts, which were mostly 1.5" wide or so.
Mid to late 13th century buckles were of brass. Around 1250 the common style was a D shape, either with or without a tongue, sometimes lobed with little "blobs" along the curve of the D. The buckle could be attached to the belt either by means of a brass plate that was riveted to the leather, or by running the leather through the buckle to hold the buckle on. This style of buckle lasted until the 15th century. The other end of the belt strap had a brass weight attached to it, commonly referred to today as a strap end. Throughout the medieval period strap ends changed a lot from place to place and by the wearer's personal tastes, but a common example would be about 3-5" long and as wide as the belt, tapering to some simple geometric shape or animal shape or something at the end. Even this early, belts commonly had some brass mounts riveted to them as well. Mostly they were simple geometric shapes or animals, they became more fancy over the centuries. These tiny brass fittings had one or more posts on the back for attaching them to the belt. A hole was punched in the leather, the post pushed through, a square washer of brass sheet was set down over the post, and finally the end of the post was peened to mushroom it, fixing the mount in place. In the late 13th century a knightly belt might have a mount every few inches, or more if the knight was wealthy. Start by choosing a buckle and strap end that are about 1" wide or slightly wider, then choose one or two styles of simple mounts and buy a total of 10 - 12 of them. The leather strap will need to be long enough to wrap all the way around you with all your gear on at least 1.5 times. Keep this length in mind if you decide to just order a belt from somewhere.
Here's a drawing of several 13th century buckles: http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ceejays_site/pages/bucklepage10.htm (http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ceejays_site/pages/bucklepage10.htm)
As with most things about armor, the really good stuff isn't cheap. But a really nice belt hand made by yourself is worth more than a mediocre one bought cheap.
At the top end of sword belt/scabbard quality lies DBK Custom. You will not find a finer sword scabbard produced anywhere in the world. http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/index.html (http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/index.html)
At the other end you make your own, with parts from a place like Armor and Castings, Gaukler, Quiet Press, or Lorifactor. The leather can be vegetable tanned from Tandy, along with a bottle of dye and a couple simple tools. Veg tanned is not exactly period, but we have to draw the line somewhere.
There are lots of places you can get the parts to make a really nice period belt, let me know if you want to go this route and I can help out more.
Scott
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That actually helps me out a lot too, Scott, thanks for the info! I'm planning on making a belt for my soft kit soon. I assume the details regarding strap ends and mounts are true for civil belts as well (by which I mean, not sword belts)?
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Scott, I know exactly the type of belt your talking about. I would LOVE to make my own, but that'd have to wait a bit, probably half way through the summer. My goal is to make and finish my kit by the end of the summer. I will probably work on a soft kit in between which I certainly would enjoy making a nice belt for. That too will have to be in the summer for I don't have the time during the school year. Plus, I am regetfully admiting I am yet to own an actual sword (besides from my Aragorn sword). Which I should have by the summer time. So the double wrap will have to wait until such time. I would like to say this conversation is more of a note taking. So I am prepared. That helps me out a lot, thanks :)
If you want for now, would you mind sharing some basic tools needed to make these belts and supplies so I am prepared to make a belt when the time comes?
Question, you said that the German surcoat looked different than the English one. In what way?
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Yes, there is no difference between civilian and martial belts until the 14th century. If you plan to wear the belt interchangably just remember you'll need to place the holes in the right places.
No problem about just taking notes. Being mentally prepared for things you're going to undertake is important if you want to do it right. The more time you spend thinking about it the better IMHO.
I'll re-post the whole belt making tutorial in a new thread.
You've probably handled a real sword by now, but if not you're in for a real treat! I wish I could be there the first time someone handles a real sword. People's minds have been unconsciously conditioned by movies and TV to think certain things about swords. When you feel one in your hand the first time your world will never be the same.
But even those who do handle them don't always appreciate the full depth of symmetrical and aesthetic beauty of a true sword. Sometimes people talk about the center of percussion of the blade or the pivot and balance points, but that's really just skin deep into the beauty of a real sword. Watch this video, and see if it changes how you think about swords. Albion NG Principe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51xWlcR0c88#)
Now, if you feel like it, research a bit further and watch Peter Johnsson's speech at Arctic Fire 2012. See if it changes how you think about medieval people.
(That's the thing that keeps me fascinated with medieval studies - one fascinating thing reveals another, and another until you're learning more than just about medieval things, you're learning about yourself and your world, and how much different they are from their medieval counterparts, and how much the same they still are.)
But however you appreciate it, the first time you hold a real sword in your hand is a magic moment. In the blink of an eye and without a single word a host of information is instantly communicated. All your preconceptions vanish, your socially programmed ignorance is washed away, and the truest beauty of the sword is made crystal clear right there in your hand. Once you've held a real sword, you'll understand why I refer to anything less as merely an "SLO" (Sword-Like-Object). It's true, you can pick up any long and pointy piece of metal and it'll kill people just as dead. But so can a crowbar. The true quality of a sword is it's design as a weapon, a tool for one specific purpose. When you hold it, you know the terrible power that you now wield. You feel the weight of responsibility to wield it responsibly. And you yearn to wield it with utter proficiency. You can use a piece of lead to draw with, but it's not a calligraphy pen. Neither is any long and pointy piece of metal a sword.
Incidentally, my feelings about the power and responsibility of carrying a sword and by extension any weapon, are reflected in the motto tooled into my sword's scabbard. "MENS CONSCIA RECTI". It's latin. Translated, it means "A mind conscious of what is right." I find it a profoundly poignant motto.
Scott
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Almost forgot to post about the surcoats.
Take a look at this with the inverted V shape cut in the front, an English style from around 1300.
(http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/john_de_goshall_s24_r1590_medium.jpg)
And my favorite, the Cyclas, from 1350 or so. A Cyclas style surcoat is one that's shorter in front than the back.
(http://www.themcs.org/armour/photos/2006%20MCS%20Pickering%20St%20Peter%20and%20St%20Paul%20William%20Bruce%201346%20small%2040.jpg)
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I held a "SLO" when I was 10 and that probably got me hooked. It was like $30 but still. Then that got my brother into swords. Just holding one for the first time in my life, I felt a surge throughout my whole body. Breathless. I couldn't take my eyes off it, as if I was looking into its soul. Almost the same experience when I got my first piece of armor (but could not compare). I am really excited to get that feeling all over again when I have a REAL sword to call my own. The sentimental value of it.
That was a cool video! I had no idea swords were crafted like that. They are trully the perfect weapon.
Now having a sword custom made for thy self is probably even better than just buying a sword. In fact having anything personally made for you probably is a more awesome feeling than something premade.
Ah, so German ones are just regular straight cuts. Personally, I am more of a Jupon kind of person for 14th century. But they all look pretty cool to me :) except the really late ones that are strictly above the waist
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It would be cool if all swords were crafted like that, to that level of attention to detail, but a great many aren't. As far as production swords go, Albion is at or near the top. I remember the first Albion I ever held...it was their Arn sword from their filmswords.com website. If you forget the aesthetics (fit, finish, fittings, etc) and just go with the aspect of how it handles, it is still worlds apart, imo. I know Arms and Armor make swords that are lauded in the sword-loving community but I've never handled one. Angus Trim made swords that have gone over big in the backyard cutting community, but his are all modern appliances with removable hilt components which make customization on the part of the owner easier, but is not historically accurate (to my knowledge). Still, he makes beastly cutters and there's definitely a market for that as well as other types of swords; SLO or wallhangers as well as decent or average look-a-likes (I call them that because they have the general look but none of the attention to detail like you'd expect from Albion or A&A) to museum-specific pieces like what Albion does and of course, the custom market. I've yet to handle a true custom- but I'm quite fine with what I currently have. Well...I always want more but who doesn't right?
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I've yet to handle a "real" sword, most of my weapons are mere wallhangers. As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun. At least I know how to properly use those. ;) One day, though, I'd like to get my hands on a really high-quality, combat-ready sword like an Albion. I think the closest thing I own to a high-quality sword is Anduril from Lord of the Rings. While it's an absolutely beautifully-made sword and currently the crown of my collection, I still doubt it has the same feel as a real sword, and I'd never attempt to swing it around or fight with it.
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I've had a few wallhangers and even a few antique North African swords and military sabres, but I will say nothing compares at all to the feel of an Albion. I was lucky enough to acquire a Senlac at a bargain price and I must say it feels like a natural extension to my arm. It's so perfectly balanced and handles so nicely, I could swing it all day. ;D
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I've yet to handle a "real" sword, most of my weapons are mere wallhangers. As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun. At least I know how to properly use those. ;) One day, though, I'd like to get my hands on a really high-quality, combat-ready sword like an Albion. I think the closest thing I own to a high-quality sword is Anduril from Lord of the Rings. While it's an absolutely beautifully-made sword and currently the crown of my collection, I still doubt it has the same feel as a real sword, and I'd never attempt to swing it around or fight with it.
You know, I remember posting a few years ago that I just couldn't see spending more for a sword than for a handgun. And then I did. And then I did so again, and again. Once you get over that hurdle, it's addicting! :)
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I've yet to handle a "real" sword, most of my weapons are mere wallhangers. As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun. At least I know how to properly use those. ;) One day, though, I'd like to get my hands on a really high-quality, combat-ready sword like an Albion. I think the closest thing I own to a high-quality sword is Anduril from Lord of the Rings. While it's an absolutely beautifully-made sword and currently the crown of my collection, I still doubt it has the same feel as a real sword, and I'd never attempt to swing it around or fight with it.
I recall back when I was first getting interested in going to Renfaires I met a guy at PARF who didn’t have anything impressive in the way of garb but said his sword was an Albion and that it cost him over a thousand dollars. At the time, I of course didn’t know what was so significant about Albions but I remember discussing with my wife and wondered why anyone would spend that much money for something you couldn’t even take out and show off at a renfaire. Yet a few years later when I started WMA and learned how to really use several different types of swords I understood the significance and preference for a well balanced and high quality blade is worth every penny of the cost. I also had the advantage and privilege of Sir Edward as a friend who has an immense collection of blades that I could swing around and try out before I invested in my Albion Talhoffer. I use it from time to time to keep the plastic bottles from overrunning my back deck. :)
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As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun.
Problem: Sword is more expensive than a hand gun.
Solution: Buy a sword and start buying more expensive hand guns so the sword is still cheaper.
Problem: Hand guns are more expensive than a sword.
Solution: Buy more expensive / custom swords so that hand guns are cheaper.
Problem: Run out of space for hand guns and swords.
Solution: Give them to Sir James and start over again.
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I am sorry to come back to this subject, but I can't seem to find any lambskin or deerskin leather mittens. Also would those be time appropriate? Or is suede? I read something on the forum about using chopper gloves? I am looking for ones that are "authentic" to the time period and are good for combat and sword wielding.
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I am sorry to come back to this subject, but I can't seem to find any lambskin or deerskin leather mittens. Also would those be time appropriate? Or is suede? I read something on the forum about using chopper gloves? I am looking for ones that are "authentic" to the time period and are good for combat and sword wielding.
http://www.amazon.com/Mens-Tan-Deerskin-Chopper-Mittens/dp/B0047VOVAI (http://www.amazon.com/Mens-Tan-Deerskin-Chopper-Mittens/dp/B0047VOVAI)
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sexytime
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sexytime
Took the words right out of my mouth. Just got to cut the palm, then add lacing to lace it shut (which will require assistance from someone to tie). Then remove that elastic part from the rist. Well I think I got an idea of what to do for my kit now :) thank you all for helping me with this I really appreciate it. Now all i have to do is look at kettle helms and bucket helms. I would ask for assistance on my soft kit but I already know what I need so I'll just post pics of it in the making. Again I appreciate all the help :)
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If anyone doing a early/mid 14th century kit needs a CoP there is a good one made by a Ukrainian on the AA who is selling it really cheap. $190 usd shipped! It is 16g and the guy does really solid neat work...I have read reviews of some other pieces here and there and have exchanged PM's with him. Alas, it doesn't fit me...
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=168159 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=168159)
(http://cs14113.vk.me/c412522/v412522907/848b/Id6gOvJpudY.jpg)
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Nice! I know winter tree crafts has a pretty nice one, so does mad matt. If you really want an intense one check out this from clang: http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/body%20pics/brig%20red%20suede%2001.html (http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/body%20pics/brig%20red%20suede%2001.html)
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Alas, that is very 15th century...I am making my Corrazina as a happy medium. Oh and this guys' is significantly cheaper than mad matt or winter tree crafts.
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Alas, that is very 15th century...I am making my Corrazina as a happy medium. Oh and this guys' is significantly cheaper than mad matt or winter tree crafts.
Ya its 15th century sadly. Ya his looks real nice, but im starting with a 13th century kit, i may buy a coat of plates but it won't be a wisby era one, it'll be the late 13th century ones. Maybe if he still has it in maybe 5 years from now I'll gladly take it off his hands, if it is still there and it will even fit me.
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I've yet to handle a "real" sword, most of my weapons are mere wallhangers. As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun. ...
Nothing wrong with having your own priorities. I have both firearms and swords, and I bet most people like us do. If you only have enough money to buy one nice and one "good enough", I'd have to choose the handgun first because it's more practical. But, the same might not be true for any other person in the same shoes. Depends on the person.
Scott
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my choices are usually - Do I want the Type XIIa sword, or the 1858 Remington Army Revolver?
I'd much rather a historic firearm over a modern.
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I've yet to handle a "real" sword, most of my weapons are mere wallhangers. As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun. ...
Nothing wrong with having your own priorities. I have both firearms and swords, and I bet most people like us do. If you only have enough money to buy one nice and one "good enough", I'd have to choose the handgun first because it's more practical. But, the same might not be true for any other person in the same shoes. Depends on the person.
While that's true, I still always have to give the advice of "get both". ;)
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I've yet to handle a "real" sword, most of my weapons are mere wallhangers. As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun. ...
Nothing wrong with having your own priorities. I have both firearms and swords, and I bet most people like us do. If you only have enough money to buy one nice and one "good enough", I'd have to choose the handgun first because it's more practical. But, the same might not be true for any other person in the same shoes. Depends on the person.
While that's true, I still always have to give the advice of "get both". ;)
Seconded :)
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There are always airsoft guns ;)
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How do nerf guns sound?
Farby.
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So I may order this tonight in a large because my normal head circumference is 24": http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0387&name=Kettle+Hat (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0387&name=Kettle+Hat)
If correct this works for both infantry and German knights, or practically any soldier from the 12th-15th century in general. Will definitely help when it comes to making multiple kits.
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you will want to leave extra space for a maille coif and a padded cap (and big hair if you have it). I normally have a small head, but I got the Large Spangenhelm and it fits perfectly.
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you will want to leave extra space for a maille coif and a padded cap (and big hair if you have it). I normally have a small head, but I got the Large Spangenhelm and it fits perfectly.
Yes! Rule of thumb when sizing any armor is to measure OVER whatever you expect to be wearing under it.
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you will want to leave extra space for a maille coif and a padded cap (and big hair if you have it). I normally have a small head, but I got the Large Spangenhelm and it fits perfectly.
Yes! Rule of thumb when sizing any armor is to measure OVER whatever you expect to be wearing under it.
Yuppers, that's why I want to get it in a large, because my head is 24" and the small is just that.
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Coming back to this topic because there was a discussion of belt hardware earlier. I've finally gotten around to looking into it some more. At the moment, here's what I'm looking at for my soft kit:
Buckle:
http://lorifactor.com/p541,b-021-a-d-shaped-belt-buckle.html (http://lorifactor.com/p541,b-021-a-d-shaped-belt-buckle.html)
Strapend:
http://lorifactor.com/p680,s-005-strapend-from-gdansk.html (http://lorifactor.com/p680,s-005-strapend-from-gdansk.html)
It seems like that buckle is more or less "generic" and would be appropriate for just about anywhere, but what about the strapend? Alternatively, would I be better off just leaving the end of the belt bare since this isn't actually a "knightly" belt?
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Coming back to this topic because there was a discussion of belt hardware earlier. I've finally gotten around to looking into it some more. At the moment, here's what I'm looking at for my soft kit:
Buckle:
http://lorifactor.com/p541,b-021-a-d-shaped-belt-buckle.html (http://lorifactor.com/p541,b-021-a-d-shaped-belt-buckle.html)
Strapend:
http://lorifactor.com/p680,s-005-strapend-from-gdansk.html (http://lorifactor.com/p680,s-005-strapend-from-gdansk.html)
It seems like that buckle is more or less "generic" and would be appropriate for just about anywhere, but what about the strapend? Alternatively, would I be better off just leaving the end of the belt bare since this isn't actually a "knightly" belt?
Nope, this would have been worn on and off the field brass fittings and all. Weather you were a knight or not.
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Well, I guess I mean at what social class are decorate belts no longer appropriate. Like, were they an item belonging mainly to the wealthy, or could you find a well-to-do townsman walking around with brass sparklies around his waist, too?
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I don't have my reference (stuck at work overnight), but those belt fittings look appropriate for a mid range impression if that's what you're looking for. If you wanted to go wealthy you would be expected to have them silver or gold plated, and the rest of the belt should be highly decorated. Commons would probably have pewter fittings on a lot of their stuff because it's super cheap. I'm assuming those are for a soft-kit belt? Those types of fittings are seen on thin belts for wear in your normal civilian clothing.
Chuck R can correct me on this if I'm wrong. The nuances of who can wear brass is not my specialty, but I'm fairly confident it's cool for mid range and the lower portion of the upper class, but will give way to gold and silver at the knightly level.
Get yourself a copy of 'Dress Accessories' from the Museum of London series of books if you really want to get in to appropriate fittings, brooches etc...
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As said earlier in the post, there were no differences in martial or civil belts. Brass was used more than pewter and is more accurate if I recall from Scott in an earlier post. There wasn't a difference until the 14th century. Also, the more mounts you have the wealthier the design and class you appear. So I so go right ahead. So I think you are fine with what you chose.
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For a soft kit, yes. I'm trying (operative word) to shoot for a more "mid-range" kit for DoK. Basically something to start out with where I can still look nice without breaking the bank on a ton of high-end accessories.
Now when we're talking mid-range, I'm thinking like franklins, merchants, and maybe some gentlemen/esquires. That about right?
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For a soft kit, yes. I'm trying (operative word) to shoot for a more "mid-range" kit for DoK. Basically something to start out with where I can still look nice without breaking the bank on a ton of high-end accessories.
Now when we're talking mid-range, I'm thinking like franklins, merchants, and maybe some gentlemen/esquires. That about right?
Should be fine.
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Now when we're talking mid-range, I'm thinking like franklins, merchants, and maybe some gentlemen/esquires. That about right?
Yes, with a strong emphasis on the maybe part :)
It's a matter of how you define mid-range, but in medieval terms gentles were generally orders of magnitude wealthier than commons, so it's hard to define them as mid-range. But some well-to-do merchants/franklins do approach and exceed the income of some of the gentle folk... so it's a little wishy-washy.
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Okay, cool. Just so I know we're more or less on the same page when we talk "mid-range". :) It seems like that group can be a little harder to pin down, depending on who you ask.
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I just ordered myself a River Thames Mace from Iron gate armory WHO only have 3 left in stock(because I ordered the forth one) and it is a product that is no longer made. Joe Metz has the same one. Very hard to come by. I will be sure to write a review on it!
On that note, I also ordered myself a 13th century gambeson in a natural color from KoA. This brings me one step closer to my ultimate goal of making a 13th century German Knight. I will only write a review on it if somebody asks me too.
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I just ordered myself a River Thames Mace from Iron gate armory WHO only have 3 left in stock(because I ordered the forth one) and it is a product that is no longer made. Joe Metz has the same one. Very hard to come by. I will be sure to write a review on it!
Of course it's been discontinued, because it was actually pretty good. It always seems to work out that way. I have one of these too, and it's a great piece to show at demos.
One of the things that's historically "wrong" is that this reproduction has 8 flanges on it, whereas the museum piece it's based on has 7. It's a lot harder to mass-produce it with an odd number, so they fudged it. But that's not a big deal, and not many people know that. :)
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http://irongatearmory.com/other_weapons/axes_maces_and_warhammers/river_thames_mace (http://irongatearmory.com/other_weapons/axes_maces_and_warhammers/river_thames_mace)
I count 7 flanges...maybe they updated their design?
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http://irongatearmory.com/other_weapons/axes_maces_and_warhammers/river_thames_mace (http://irongatearmory.com/other_weapons/axes_maces_and_warhammers/river_thames_mace)
I count 7 flanges...maybe they updated their design?
Nope, that's 8 flanges. One of them is blending in with the center shaft.
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Its an attractive mace. I figured I could use it for my demo for history club(if permitted of course). This is also great because I can technically use it for a late 13th century soldier and knight, for similar styles were in that period. The only difference is that most records and known artifacts show that the flanged maces of the time had fewer flanges and don't usually have that extended metal base under the mace head. what I also like is that I can use it for an early 14th century (it real targeted time).
Sir Edward, how strong and effective is this mace? Can it be used as a live steel weapon that can take a beating or rather only good for melon smashing? If not either of those, does it only make a good decorative piece?
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Can it be used as a live steel weapon that can take a beating or rather only good for melon smashing? If not either of those, does it only make a good decorative piece?
If by live steel you mean used in a WMA setting, then you'd have to be crazy or have a death wish. A 2lb flanged mace head can defeat real armor and maim or kill the person inside it.
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Can it be used as a live steel weapon that can take a beating or rather only good for melon smashing? If not either of those, does it only make a good decorative piece?
If by live steel you mean used in a WMA setting, then you'd have to be crazy or have a death wish. A 2lb flanged mace head can defeat real armor and maim or kill the person inside it.
I just want to know if this is a well built piece. But if that's answering the question, than awesome. Except I wouldn't literally hit a man with it. Didn't know if this was the real deal or not.
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I just want to know if this is a well built piece. But if that's answering the question, than awesome. Except I wouldn't literally hit a man with it. Didn't know if this was the real deal or not.
Usually when someone uses the phrase 'live steel' it means for live combat with steel weapons.
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Yes, don't hit people with a steel mace. Particularly not if you're trying to have a friendly game. :)
As for how durable, the head is just fine. The haft, I'm not sure. It would hold up for a while, I'm sure, but I don't know that it's a particularly good hardwood. But even in period, hafts would fail and get replaced. Nothing made of wood is going to last forever, especially if it's being struck and torqued.
It should be great against melons. But something to be careful with (and this is true of any test-cutting), is check your surroundings, and angle your swings so that WHEN (not "if") your target goes flying, it won't hit anything important, such as a bystander. Maces tend to fling melons around, because the melon doesn't weigh enough to resist the hit. Downward strikes are your friend here, and of course that means you need to have a stand for the melons that you don't mind getting bashed up with maces.
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I just want to know if this is a well built piece. But if that's answering the question, than awesome. Except I wouldn't literally hit a man with it. Didn't know if this was the real deal or not.
Usually when someone uses the phrase 'live steel' it means for live combat with steel weapons.
Ya, that was kinda a dumb thing to ask on my part lol. I just wanted to know if it could work on armor. In case I ever want to test it out on some(not on a live person of course).
As for Mellon's, that's good to know! I could always have a secondary shaft to switch out. I have an entire beech tree that my disposal(already cut down) that I have been considering using for medieval projects like making a shield, various shafts for spears and maces.
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Yes, don't hit people with a steel mace. Particularly not if you're trying to have a friendly game. :)
Or if you're trying to have friends in general. ;)
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Yes, don't hit people with a steel mace. Particularly not if you're trying to have a friendly game. :)
Or if you're trying to have friends in general. ;)
Hey, what ever happened to nothing says love like a mace ;)
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Yes, don't hit people with a steel mace. Particularly not if you're trying to have a friendly game. :)
Or if you're trying to have friends in general. ;)
Hey, what ever happened to nothing says love like a mace ;)
Nothing says love like a Gothic flanged mace. :)
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Yes, don't hit people with a steel mace. Particularly not if you're trying to have a friendly game. :)
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Or if you're trying to have friends in general. ;)
Hey, what ever happened to nothing says love like a mace ;)
Nothing says love like a Gothic flanged mace. :)
So we should get a gothic flanged mace, is what you're saying?
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NO to the mace, Naythan. lol