ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2008-01-27, 20:50:45
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These guys not only do some very interested longsword techniques, but also have a very interesting video style.
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg[/youtube]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg)
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA[/youtube]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA (http://youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA)
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:o
I always suspected that the longsword was an often under appreciated weapon
that was too easily dismissed as crude and clumsy.
Seeing what I can only assume are some of the techniques of Johannes Lecküchner,
it truly was an eloquent and versatile weapon in the hands of someone who knows
how to use it!
WOW!
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Yeah, what they're doing isn't precisely the same as what we're learning at VAF, but very similar. Some of the techniques are executed a little differently. But this is basically what the period European longsword fighting looks like... or I should say, this is what the techniques can look like when executed properly under perfect conditions, since they're demonstrating rather than fighting. :)
I like to point people to these videos so they'll understand why I love longswords. :)
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You know Hollywood has done a real injustice to the longsword and sword fighting in general.
Remember those 50s and 60s era films that portrayed medieval fighting and the actors used the
longswords like rapiers. Even more modern films take a lot of liberties. The only recent film that
even “hinted” at the real potential of the longsword was Kingdom of Heaven and that was pretty
much the one scene with Orlando Bloom and Liam Neeson.
I guess you could call Hollywood’s contributions to historic reenactment a double edged sword.
On the good side it sparks interest in an otherwise oblivious general public but on the other hand
it gets almost everything completely wrong.
:(
weird, I had to edit my post...seems like I was repeating myself!
weird, I had to edit my post...seems like I was repeating myself!
Oh cut that out! ;)
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No kidding. I know a lot of my interest in swords, knights, armor, etc came from a variety of sources, including movies and games. It's good that it gets people interested, but it's a shame that there is so much misunderstanding out there. It reminds me of a comic strip I saw once, where a young kid is in a karate lesson, and asks the teacher when they'll get to do the slow-motion stuff. :)
Because of the way Hollywood does things, it's no surprise that there's this preconception out there that Japanese katanas and samurai are the "ultimate" in swords and warriors. In actuality there's very little difference between the medieval European knight and the samurai. Similar sized swords, similar techniques, similar amount of weight of equipment and armor. They even had a similar ethos (Bushido vs Chivalry). The culture and styles differ the most, and as a result the weapons and armor fill slightly different niches. So I just chuckle when I see "samurai vs knight" arguments on message boards. :) (IMHO, it's just as worthy as all of the other "holy wars", such as Kirk vs Picard, Emacs vs vi, Aliens vs Predators, etc) :)
The western martial arts are quite beautiful to watch, and fun to learn. They're simply more scarce, since they were allowed to die out as gunpowder took over, unlike the eastern arts that were kept alive as a living tradition. Anything that's done today with western sword arts is being revived from the surviving manuscripts (German fechtbuchs in most cases), and there are only a handful of groups out there doing so. But this revival movement is gradually growing as more people learn that it does exist, and that it's actually pretty cool. :)
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Of course all this really cool revival stuff has to happen AFTER I've
become a middle-aged, overweight and out of shape slob! ;)
Oh well gives me a goal to strive for! :D
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Hah, you and me both! I sit behind a computer all day, every day... I'm horribly out of shape all the time.
I actually find that longsword is less strenuous than some of the other things we do (occasional single-hand swords, sword and buckler, etc). The worst was sword and shield, I thought, but we don't do that in class anymore since there isn't much that's survived about those techniques.
Longsword is more symmetrical, and since you operate it with both arms, it doesn't tax any one part of your body much. In fact, one of the things our instructor keeps trying to get us to do is relax, without tensing up the shoulders, etc. And it pays off. It's very aerobic, it gets your heart rate up without wearing you out or causing sore muscles.
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It is wonderful exercise, but what really appeals to me is that the mind is completely engaged as well. It's my personal escape from ordinary day to day life.
Besides, if a middle-aged frumpy housewife can learn it, anyone can. :D
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I've often heard sport-fencing referred to as "physical chess" since you're having to out-think your opponent, potentially several moves ahead. I think that applies to any martial art as well. And besides, we get to hit people over the head with steel swords. What's not to love?
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Oh I forgot to say...
Frumpy? Hah... Any chick with period weapons is hot as far as I'm concerned. :)
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:)
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Another interesting video:
http://www.warussepat.fi/kiltavideo_le3.3.wmv (http://www.warussepat.fi/kiltavideo_le3.3.wmv)
Demonstrating longswords, messers, daggers, and spears.
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So Ed,
This means we have to get off our butts and finish making our videos. :) Got to keep up with the Joneses!
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Heck yeah, I'm looking forward to being able to show those off. OK, I need to get off my butt and rip that second set of tapes.
Oh, and welcome to the forum! :)
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Why, thank you, Sir Edward. And thank you for inviting me.
Of course all this really cool revival stuff has to happen AFTER I've
become a middle-aged, overweight and out of shape slob! ;)
Oh well gives me a goal to strive for! :D
I don't want to use this board for my own advertising, but since you bring this up:
I'm the guy who teaches Sir Edward and Sword Chick how to beat each other senseless (but with style, of course). Roughly 50% of my adult students are over 40 and begin out of shape. They take my intro class just out of curiosity, then many stay. As they go on, many start getting in better and better shape, and they learn to really love historical swordsmanship for what it is: A beautiful art form that strives to preserve something precious that otherwise will have become forgotten. And they use that to justify purchasing more swords. :) So, while I'm not trying to talk you in to anything, I will definately say don't let your age or weight hold you back if it is something you're truly interested in.
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hey now, a pear and oval are a shape too!
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I'm the guy who teaches Sir Edward and Sword Chick how to beat each other senseless (but with style, of course).
And you do it quite well, I might add!
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Since Das Bill is an instructor when it comes to swordsmanship I'm assuming he has better than average knowledge on the subject. Now, I sometimes like to practice fighting with swords with a friend of mine and, in to that end, I've made myself two wooden swords complete with make-shift cross-guards. Now, whenever we spar we use a point system, wherein the first guy to touch his opponent gets a point and it all stops there then begins anew. Who gets three points wins a hypothetical 'match' though we always spar beyond three points.
Now, I feel that I'm somehow getting the short end of the stick since I tend to get touched more often than he does, though I tend to move around more than he does. It's all pretty annoying since we're both untrained and we're basically pulling moves out of our arses, though his arse seems to be offering better moves than mine. I always dismiss him telling him that's he's lucky, but we both know how faint my arguments hold.
I'm both taller and heavier than he is, so technically I should be winning more often with my advantage of reach.
Any pointers that might help both of us (read: me) improve?
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Any pointers that might help both of us (read: me) improve?
buy a bigger gun? ;) I'm sure Bill can help you out here
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Any pointers that might help both of us (read: me) improve?
I know you're going to hate this answer, but here it is nonetheless: Stop sparring. I'm serious. First of all, its dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. Second of all, you will only get worse, and it gets harder and harder to fix habits that are ingrained. YouTube is a perfect example of how awful you will get by sparring without an instructor helping you... it is littered with really terrible free fencing videos.
Second thing: If you can't find an instructor, then get some books. I highly recommend Christian Tobler's Fighting with the German Longsword. It will give you a broad overview of the Liechtenauer tradition of fencing. If you want a more immediate solution, here's a very generalized article I wrote a couple years ago:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_arms_gls.html
It isn't perfect, and it is only a "teaser" article, but it can at least give you a taste of some of the core actions of the system.
And then you need to start drilling the actions with your partner. Not just once or twice, but over and over and over, until it becomes part of your muscle memory, so that when you see "X" attack you automatically respond with "Y" counterattack without thinking. And after it become second nature, then *maybe* it is time to start pressure testing it by doing free fencing.
But I'm serious: Without an instructor, any free fencing you do is likely to result in you using techniques that work to "get the point" as opposed to actually using realistic martial techniques, let alone the risk of injury. The analogy I like to use is learning a foreign language: At some point, yes, you need to start conversing with another person. But if all you've done is memorized a few words, and you never learn the theory, the structure, how to form tenses, etc, and if the only person you ever talk to is equally ignorant of the language and says, "Let's just learn as we go," then all you'll get good at is learning to speak gibberish. Which is exactly what will happen to your sword technique.
Understand that I'm not saying this to give you a hard time: I'm saying it because its what I see constantly, and then I see people online acting like experts just because they've spent the last few years beating up their friends with sticks in the back yard without ever having learned a single thing about an actual martial art.
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Thanks a dozen for the link! As for the book, where I live it's pretty hard to find English books on such obscure subjects as swordsmanship. There are no Romanian books on the subject, let alone English books. And I would really love to train with an instructor, believe me. I know that what we are doing now is basically a hazard to both of us and we are both untrained as hell. But there are no such instructors in Romania that I know of. And if there are, there are none in city.
And I have a manuscript from the web on sword fighting by Paulus Hector Mair. Might that help?
But there's one thing about what you said that somehow surprises me. If you learn to counter set moves from the same repertoire, wouldn't that make fighting someone who is untrained a bit dangerous for the trained swordsman? Since he wouldn't know what moves to expect or how to counter them. And we do use protection for both our heads and our hands. We're not that reckless. And we don't hit each other devilishly hard. We're lifelong friends who have known each other from the cradle (literally) after all.
And I think you can see that I've never had any pretensions of being an expert on historical swordsmanship. What with my backyard-expertise, it would be pretty hypocritical of me to claim such a thing. Anyway, your link is of great help. Thanks again!
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Thanks a dozen for the link!
You're welcome! :)
As for the book, where I live it's pretty hard to find English books on such obscure subjects as swordsmanship. There are no Romanian books on the subject, let alone English books. And I would really love to train with an instructor, believe me. I know that what we are doing now is basically a hazard to both of us and we are both untrained as hell. But there are no such instructors in Romania that I know of. And if there are, there are none in city.
Understood. I hope as time goes on, this material becomes more and more accessible.
And I have a manuscript from the web on sword fighting by Paulus Hector Mair. Might that help?
Its better than nothing, but I don't think Mair's treatises are the best to work from if you don't already know what you're doing. It has a lot of weird things in it. If you can get a copy of Christian's book that I mentioned above (or even his first book, Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship, which has a translation of the Sigmund Ringeck treatise), things will go much easier for you.
But there's one thing about what you said that somehow surprises me. If you learn to counter set moves from the same repertoire, wouldn't that make fighting someone who is untrained a bit dangerous for the trained swordsman? Since he wouldn't know what moves to expect or how to counter them.
If your opponent doesn't know how to counter, then you just hit him. :) There is this strange idea that people have that an untrained fighter is somehow unpredictable... most untrained fighters are *incredibly* predictable. There are exceptions, but not that many. The thing is, there are an infinite number of counters... but that's not actually the point. Understanding a martial art isn't about learning a rigid set of predictable rules. Its about learning to be flexible enough apply the rules to match an infinite number of situations. Just like painting: There are rules to how to paint. You can either throw on a bunch of colors and hope to get a semblance of a picture, or you can follow the rules of color balance, form, light and shadow, etc. Some people can do this more intuitively than others, but the artists who can consistantly produce quality work (as opposed to someone who made a masterpiece by luck but never made anything good ever again) are the ones who understand the underlying rules and theory of what makes good art.
And we do use protection for both our heads and our hands. We're not that reckless. And we don't hit each other devilishly hard. We're lifelong friends who have known each other from the cradle (literally) after all.
That's good. I still stand by what I said, though. :) I'm not trying to come down hard on you, I just keep hearing stories about how some friends were whacking away at each other in their back yard with sticks, and one slips and ends up injuring a friend for life, and I wouldn't like to hear about it again. But of course, its up to you whether or not to take my advice. :)
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I've found a reenactment group here in my very city and they plan on expanding to medieval reenactment. Currently, they're doing 1877 reenactment together with WW1 and WW2 reenactment but once they start the medieval segment, I'll join in. What excites me is the fact that they train with sword, spear and bow according to the way fighting men in my country would do so back in the XV-th century.
So, I'll finally learn to swing a sword around properly. :P
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Congratulations Sir Griff! I know you will excel !
:)
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Thank you my good sir.
Physically speaking, I see no reasons why I shouldn't do so, what with being 1.84 metres tall at 16 years of age. I've also been through many a rugby practice session and several matches, so I'm also of some worth when it comes to endurance, which I think is also quite important.
I can't wait to start practising, to be honest.
So now I won't be Sir Griff, but Griff Viteazul!
(The term "Viteaz" was used to refer to a knight in medieval Wallachia, and means "Brave" in my language)
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Sir Griff,
Come to Chivalric Weekend this summer and you will recieve a wealth of training and knowledge :) Das Bill will be there teaching as well as Christian Tobler.
Hopefully I will be able to take class or two. I'm diffently taking Das Bill's classes and hoping to pull him aside at the end of the day for some rapier :-X
There will be intruction in longsword, messer, sword and buckler, german dagger, wrestling and pole arms.
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I would gladly do so, but I don't live in the US, Todd.
In Europe I lie, in the Eastern half. Romania, to be exact.
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There will be intruction in longsword, messer, sword and buckler, german dagger, wrestling and pole arms.
Who's teaching messer, Todd?
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There will be intruction in longsword, messer, sword and buckler, german dagger, wrestling and pole arms.
Who's teaching messer, Todd?
Christian.
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These are other videos I enjoy watching. Bill what is your thoughts on these? http://www.gladiatores.de/Movies.html
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These are other videos I enjoy watching. Bill what is your thoughts on these? http://www.gladiatores.de/Movies.html
Huh, I hadn't seen some of those before. I've only seen the ones they have on YouTube. Very cool.
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I guess there will no classes at CW 09. We are going to sit around the campfire in armor and drink beer, wine, and mead. So boring :P
and Bill is going to dance for us...his new name is..wait for it...."Igrayne"
Here is a clip of Bill dancing last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqq8b6NX9i8
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hahahahahahaha
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That might be even better than the Blue Man Group thing. :)