ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: Mike W. on 2014-02-04, 22:35:18
-
I'm quite certain that this forum, being named what it is, has had many discussions on the topic of acting chivalrous and gentlemanly in the modern age. Being new to this forum, I wanted to introduce this topic so I may participate in it and learn from what others have to say. It would seem to me that chivalry tends to have large general rules like: Serve your country, Serve God and others, treat ladies with respect. Etiquette on the other hand seems to consist of meticulous rituals like how to tip a hat properly, how to conduct oneself in conversation, how to court a lady. How have any of you exercised chivalry and etiquette in your daily lives? Do any of you have a set of personal etiquette/chivalry rules that you strive to follow? What are some rituals you follow to ensure that you live a chivalrous and honorable life?
-
hmmmmmmm
-
I strive for integrity within myself and with whomever I interact with each day. Most days I do well and on other days I fail and allow my own preconceptions and narcissisms to rule the day. Suffice to say I endeavor to treat everyone the way I wish to be treated yet those that have shown me to be utterly incorrigible miscreants I have to consciously struggle to maintain the modicum of civility our overly politically correct society dictates.
-
Similar to what Sir Brian said, I make an effort to be truthful, helpful, respectful, and courteous at all times. I try to resist the urge to lay blame on others, or avoid taking responsibility for my mistakes. Sometimes these things take a considerable amount of conscious effort, and at other times they don't.
It's amazing how much of chivalry can be boiled down to the "golden rule" of treating others the way you would wish to be treated.
-
As an Eagle Scout of ’87, I still subconsciously try to live up to the Scout Law. While not always successful, I’m mindful of my failures.
-
I just play it day by day. Trying to get away with as much mischief as my wife & conscience allow. :)
-
hmmmmmmmm
i must be a bad egg
-
Suffice to say I endeavor to treat everyone the way I wish to be treated yet those that have shown me to be utterly incorrigible miscreants I have to consciously struggle to maintain the modicum of civility our overly politically correct society dictates.
This summarizes mine as well.
Also, you are indeed correct about similar discussions before. Feel free to browse the old threads and "necro post" in them. We don't mind reviving old threads with new perspectives or information. :)
-
Now do any of you have any particular etiquette rituals? Being a student of the 19th century, I've picked up some old fashioned habits, like always wearing a nice hat whenever I'm out and about and follow the rules of hat wearing, I always bow when being introduced to someone, I hold the door open for people, etc. (Though for some reason, being polite and chivalrous to the opposite sex has a way of being misconstrued as making advances).
-
Well, I like to think at the end of the day, before my prayers of all the things it did that were chivalrous, and what I can improve on for the future. I keep myself best I can now away from bad habits, and strive for a healthy life, and being more than a good person. But a chivalrous one.
-
I try to be chivalrous as much as possible. But I find chivalry not to be a trait that knights of old had, but one that every day people should have. But, it seems to be one not taught to youth anymore. I am kind to all, but the moment some one disrespects me and my family I stick my sword through 'em.
-
I think about this a lot and it's one of the reasons I'm here on this forum.
I'll skip all the explanation and just say that my opinion is that chivalry in our modern sense of the word, has never really been a cultural norm in any western culture. The idea was highly romanticized in the 19th century, along with nearly everything else about medieval times, and that has unfortunately stuck because medieval studies has never been important to the majority of human beings since the medieval era. So we who find such things interesting must discover what the real meanings are for ourselves. As for me, my obsessive curiosity led me on a journey of discovery that has more or less ended up giving me mixed feelings on the subject. As it turns out, not only were real knights not all that chivalrous, even the ones who were would never fit our modern definition of what chivalry is. A great man revered by millions as a paragon of virtue was also one who had put to death every man, woman and child of a village that defected to their enemy. Surviving stories have been intentionally embellished to make people look better (or in some cases worse) than they really were. The mere idea of chivalry in medieval times only applied to the upper social classes - "defend the helpless" meant women and children of knights and nobles, not every helpless person.
What all this means to me is that if I want to feel like I am living up to my own ideals of behavior, only I can be the judge of my success. What chivalry means to everyone is irrelevant - it only matters what it means to me, because in the end whether I've lived up to "everyones" expectations won't be important. But it can be said there is one thing analagous with my medieval idealized knight persona and myself: my conscience must be my guide, and the same is true of every other man. I cannot control what others do, or what others think of me. I can only control my own actions, and attempt to live up to my own standards, and be content with myself or not based on that.
And perhaps most ironically of all, in all likelihood that is exactly what those unchivalrous, murdering, virtue paragon real knights of medieval times were thinking to themselves all those centuries ago.
As for myself, what I do is I usually look for opportunities to live up to my standards when it will really matter. I ask myself "Am I doing the right thing?" And if I fail that test, "What will I be able to live with tomorrow?"
Scott
-
In general, I don't consider chivalry to be anything special or set apart. I believe chivalry really is just a fancy name for doing the things that all human beings should already be doing. That is, being the best person one can be. I believe everyone has the moral responsibility to make themselves become the best they can be so as to better serve others. However, few people aspire to that, and even fewer achieve it. Therefore, since it is so rare, it has garnered a special term to set it aside from everyday living.
-
Chivalry now isn't what it used to be; we've had this discussion at length- the thread(s) are around here somewhere. For myself, it is a long-running battle of conscience vs conscious- as in, am I truly aware of what's going on around me, and how much do I care? I am reasonably courteous and well spoken to most people I meet; I don't have much patience for idiocy, though. What I term idiocy is actually pretty broad and it is a struggle at times to remain silent. My grandmother always told me I should not speak if I had nothing nice to say...so I find myself being quiet for just that reason but sometimes, on rare occasions, it is very difficult and I don't always win that skirmish, but I do try.
I do my best to be chivalrous, but I'm sure there are times when I am not.
-
It is simply not tought and enforced as it used to be. Plus today people do not need to be as social to get by in life because of the internet and texting etc. Hopefully we will pass this ideal of chivalry onto out children and so on and so forth.
-
Personally I am okay with striving for the romantic ideal...even if I cannot achieve it I will try my best and hopefully leave the world a better place for it...
-
I think many follow chivalrous lives, but they mostly take parts of it in which the believe in. Chivalry is what you make it out to be, at least following out of the rules of chivalry or guidelines per say.
There are many here if not most or even all that live out most of the chivalric ideals (again, if not All the ideals)
-
Personally I am okay with striving for the romantic ideal...even if I cannot achieve it I will try my best and hopefully leave the world a better place for it...
It is the ideal because it is unattainable. That is why I strive for it. The journey can never be done, so I can never stop trying to be better.
-
Chivalry, and Etiquette are different things in my mind, if related.
Chivalry is the value sets expected of one who seeks to be "Knightly", or chivalrous.
Etiquette is behaving socially gracefully in whatever context you happen to be.
Yes, they are related, since acting properly in public is a lot easier if your value set espouses being a decent human being.
But chivalry in many ways will and has, stayed the same. The core tenets, stripped of the social context (the realm of etiquette) still exist. Etiquette changes rapidly and drastically. The etiquette of the 19th century is as inappropriate today as the etiquette of the 15th century in the 19th century.
Etiquette varies region to region. The details (and in some cases, major parts) of etiquette can change just as fast as the cultural groups you interact with. Good luck using American socialization on Germans, and have fun getting a beat down in Saudi Arabia by propping your feet up on a desk and revealing the bottom of your shoes.
Stay modern, chivalrous, cultured and classy gentlemen.
-
What all this means to me is that if I want to feel like I am living up to my own ideals of behavior, only I can be the judge of my success. What chivalry means to everyone is irrelevant - it only matters what it means to me, because in the end whether I've lived up to "everyones" expectations won't be important. But it can be said there is one thing analagous with my medieval idealized knight persona and myself: my conscience must be my guide, and the same is true of every other man. I cannot control what others do, or what others think of me. I can only control my own actions, and attempt to live up to my own standards, and be content with myself or not based on that.
And perhaps most ironically of all, in all likelihood that is exactly what those unchivalrous, murdering, virtue paragon real knights of medieval times were thinking to themselves all those centuries ago.
As for myself, what I do is I usually look for opportunities to live up to my standards when it will really matter. I ask myself "Am I doing the right thing?" And if I fail that test, "What will I be able to live with tomorrow?"
Well stated and IMHO the essence of manhood.
-
You raise a good point, Aiden...people in general are less personally social; with the added buffers of the internet and 'social media' people don't have to look one another in the eye when they speak/interact. I do appreciate what such things afford us- my brother lives on the other side of the country and if it weren't for technology, we probably wouldn't see or speak to eachother but a handful of times over an entire life, you know? But one cannot ignore the detriment to society that they have also been.
-
You raise a good point, Aiden...people in general are less personally social; with the added buffers of the internet and 'social media' people don't have to look one another in the eye when they speak/interact. I do appreciate what such things afford us- my brother lives on the other side of the country and if it weren't for technology, we probably wouldn't see or speak to eachother but a handful of times over an entire life, you know? But one cannot ignore the detriment to society that they have also been.
Yes indeed, there are its benefits and its cons. If it were not for the internet we all would never have known one another and never would this community be what it is. I know for a fact that when speaking over social networks I am funny, talkative, always know what to say. But in person it is a WHOLE new situation. You don't have all the time in the world to think about what you want to say. Also I am part of the first generation EVER to grow up with these things. My generation is being raised with this technology. The generation before mine used an ancient tool called the type writer (what ever that is). Anyways, I mean if you REALLY want to get old fashion, there is always 12 century fox!
-
You raise a good point, Aiden...people in general are less personally social; with the added buffers of the internet and 'social media' people don't have to look one another in the eye when they speak/interact. I do appreciate what such things afford us- my brother lives on the other side of the country and if it weren't for technology, we probably wouldn't see or speak to eachother but a handful of times over an entire life, you know? But one cannot ignore the detriment to society that they have also been.
Yes indeed, there are its benefits and its cons. If it were not for the internet we all would never have known one another and never would this community be what it is. I know for a fact that when speaking over social networks I am funny, talkative, always know what to say. But in person it is a WHOLE new situation. You don't have all the time in the world to think about what you want to say. Also I am part of the first generation EVER to grow up with these things. My generation is being raised with this technology. The generation before mine used an ancient tool called the type writer (what ever that is). Anyways, I mean if you REALLY want to get old fashion, there is always 12 century fox!
Indeed. I'm very introverted and find it much easier to communicate online. The odd thing is, I didn't really grown up with this technology, and I've only been part of the Internet world for about...oh, five or six years or so; I don't really feel like it's adversely affected a proper development of my interpersonal skills. I definitely agree that that's the case with a lot of the younger generation, but in my case, I've just always had lousy social skills. ;)
Now on the other hand, once I actually get to know someone and get over my initial shyness, I definitely prefer in-person communication where possible. I like being able to read facial expressions and hear inflection in tone. That's an important part of interpersonal communication that is completely lost with social media.
-
I'm very interested in the comments from our younger members. My children were issued IPads in 1st grade and are very savvy with modern communications. We try to instill "old fashion" values, turn off the devices, go play outside, and try not to kill each other. ;)
Our constant theme is "what do you do when you think no one is looking?"
It may be a bit simplistic, but it seems to fit the chivalry theme.
-
As human beings are naturally social creatures, I place high importance on social interaction. I will not text, talk on, or check my phone in the presence of others. For certain matters of importance, I will only discuss them in person. Social technology does connect people over vast distances, but it also removes certain essential communication elements like voice inflection and body language. I believe, like all other things, it should be used in moderation and with responsibility.
-
As human beings are naturally social creatures, I place high importance on social interaction. I will not text, talk on, or check my phone in the presence of others. For certain matters of importance, I will only discuss them in person. Social technology does connect people over vast distances, but it also removes certain essential communication elements like voice inflection and body language. I believe, like all other things, it should be used in moderation and with responsibility.
Agreed! Emailing my parents in Mexico takes a distant 2nd place to Skyping them. Voice inflection, body language and hand movement are critical to a full conversation.
-
Personally I am okay with striving for the romantic ideal...even if I cannot achieve it I will try my best and hopefully leave the world a better place for it...
It is the ideal because it is unattainable. That is why I strive for it. The journey can never be done, so I can never stop trying to be better.
The only person you need to be better than is the you of yesterday. :)
-
Chivalry, and Etiquette are different things in my mind, if related.
Chivalry is the value sets expected of one who seeks to be "Knightly", or chivalrous.
Etiquette is behaving socially gracefully in whatever context you happen to be.
Yes, they are related, since acting properly in public is a lot easier if your value set espouses being a decent human being.
But chivalry in many ways will and has, stayed the same. The core tenets, stripped of the social context (the realm of etiquette) still exist. Etiquette changes rapidly and drastically. The etiquette of the 19th century is as inappropriate today as the etiquette of the 15th century in the 19th century.
Etiquette varies region to region. The details (and in some cases, major parts) of etiquette can change just as fast as the cultural groups you interact with. Good luck using American socialization on Germans, and have fun getting a beat down in Saudi Arabia by propping your feet up on a desk and revealing the bottom of your shoes.
Stay modern, chivalrous, cultured and classy gentlemen.
I agree with this.
-
I too believe chivalry should be practised by all people. The world would be a lot better place. I was raised to have good manners and politeness(opening a door for a woman etc.) so that part comes natural to me. I do have issues that i try to work on everyday. Old habits of blaming someone before knowing the whole truth, judging certain people for things are sometimes hard to break. This code of chivalry is making me better every day. I try to think before i say things and like many others have said treat people the way u want to be treated.
-
I too believe chivalry should be practised by all people. The world would be a lot better place. I was raised to have good manners and politeness(opening a door for a woman etc.) so that part comes natural to me. I do have issues that i try to work on everyday. Old habits of blaming someone before knowing the whole truth, judging certain people for things are sometimes hard to break. This code of chivalry is making me better every day. I try to think before i say things and like many others have said treat people the way u want to be treated.
As with all of us, we all hope to always improve our moral standing and our habits. No matter what it is. Chivalry is the guideline and the force to push us to become a better person, in thy home or out of it. As humans we are not perfect, nor are we ever expected to be. As for chivalry in our modern world beyond the forum and order, it is quite a sad sight. I had planned to open a club in my school in order to help people bring this, what is now considered by our modern world an old custom, into their lives. To no surprise I could not pass this club for there was no teacher to sponsor it either willingly or capable. That said, I am sure that over time this will catch on. As long as people like you continue to follow the code and pass it on.
-
In terms of chivalry, I frequently choose to let others proceed before myself. If another person and I desire the same thing, I will concede it to them, before I take it. I have also recently started donating to charity in an effort to help those less fortunate than myself. As for etiquette, my biggest thing is proper grammar. I try my best to articulate myself clearly and concisely. I also try not to say "um"constantly or fumble over my words.
-
Refined manners are to be a reflection of the refinement within one's character. Thus when we exhibit our manners, we are showing ourselves whether in public or in private.