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Main => The Campaign => Topic started by: Thorsteinn on 2013-09-13, 16:00:24
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Steel for steel my lads, steel for steel.
(https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/q85/1237590_10151855828844044_827110389_n.jpg)
From the album"Battle of the Nations 2013, The Best Photos" on Facebook. (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151695810239044.1073741827.206676754043&type=3)
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Sadly, that's not surprising knowing the steel sledgehammers they call 'halberds' and 'falchions' in BotN.
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Sadly, that's not surprising knowing the steel sledgehammers they call 'halberds' and 'falchions' in BotN.
Yes, indeed. QFT.
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I take it the one who wore it is ok?
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Yes he's OK what with the suspension harness & whatnot and IIRC that's one of the European guys whom tend to have lower quality steel on their domes, thus why they have more dents in their helms than the US & Canadian teams.
BUT... not for nothing I'm unsure why if I can dent a helm well with a rattan sword that weigh's 3-ish lbs then why is it safe to strike a fencing masked man using a steel sword that weighs 3-ish lbs?
(IE: My 55" SCA greatsword with steel furniture is 3lb 9oz, and my 14 ga SS helm has dents)
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BUT... not for nothing I'm unsure why if I can dent a helm well with a rattan sword that weigh's 3-ish lbs then why is it safe to strike a fencing masked man using a steel sword that weighs 3-ish lbs?
Well, the safety of using a fencing mask is under some debate. But generally, it's considered safe with the appropriate level of control, but not for full-out hard-hitting fights. A lot of folks will use something more substantial for competitions, or when fencing people they're not familiar with.
HEMA/WMA practice with steel generally doesn't use anywhere near the power level that you're used to in SCA. The reasons are two-fold:
1. Such power actually isn't necessary when you're fighting with unarmored techniques. It only takes a modest amount of power for a sharp weapon to deliver an incapacitating blow, particularly in sensitive areas like the face, armpits, etc.
2. Safety, of course. Using a fencing mask with rebated steel simply requires that the participants are controlled and don't strike too hard. But even with a heavier helmet, there are other safety considerations. We're finding that adequate hand-protection is proving to be one of the more challenging aspects, so we have to worry about injuries in other areas too.
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BUT... not for nothing I'm unsure why if I can dent a helm well with a rattan sword that weigh's 3-ish lbs then why is it safe to strike a fencing masked man using a steel sword that weighs 3-ish lbs?
(IE: My 55" SCA greatsword with steel furniture is 3lb 9oz, and my 14 ga SS helm has dents)
Your 55'' SCA greatsword has a mass distribution that's equal throughout it's entire length, and has a large hitting surface area. The only part that doesn't have equal mass distribution is your crossguard (assuming you use one).
A HEMA federschwert has the overwhelming majority of it's mass concentrated in it's hilt. At least the last 1/3 of the sword and the center of percussion (which hits the hardest due to the node in the standing wave created in the blade), is very flexible so the force is not transmitted to the fencing mask you just hit with it as if it were a solid object with no give and a lot of mass. The part of the sword that impacts the person has very little mass compared to the overall mass of the sword.
That's why you can safely hit a fencing mask with a steel federschwert, but you need a 12 gauge steel helm for rattan. Physics :)
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That's why you can safely hit a fencing mask with a steel federschwert, but you need a 12 gauge steel helm for rattan. Physics :)
That's also a really good answer. :)
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That's why you can safely hit a fencing mask with a steel federschwert, but you need a 12 gauge steel helm for rattan. Physics :)
That's also a really good answer. :)
Oh I see! So I wouldn't have gnarled fingers if I didn't take that 'physics' to the hand? ;D
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Remind me not to take my Dargen Great Helm to a European reenactment, mines only 16 gauge too, which is prolly too thin for fighting but I cant stand things being too heavy. Looks like I'm going to have to find a new helm for fighting practice.
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Remind me not to take my Dargen Great Helm to a European reenactment, mines only 16 gauge too, which is prolly too thin for fighting but I cant stand things being too heavy. Looks like I'm going to have to find a new helm for fighting practice.
I got 3 decent sized dents in my 16 gauge helmet from one or two bouts of 3 points each and wooden wasters. I think 14 gauge is questionable, 12 gauge ideally; or 14 gauge stainless (since it's a harder steel).
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Duke Icefalcon, Aesir Armory, Clang Armory, or Windrose are good helm guy's to got to. If you have a great idea and good cash flow then Ugo Serrano's your man.
Ian: My greatsword is the same one I've posted pics of and it balances 19-ish" from the pommel end. I sadly had to increase the grip length from 11" to 14" because what felt great in my bear hands was not so good in my munition-grade gauntleted ones. So that does make it balance much like a Fendershwert or even just a rebated sword like Albions Maestro Liechtenauer or Epée de Guerre (and mine is lighter but longer than both Albions).
I'm gonna query the BOTN guys I know to see what the stats are on the BKS longswords they use.
BTW: Bpeaking of Albions- If y'all want to ever buy me a Albion sword for HEMA then that Epée de Guerre would make me happy happy. My 35th B-day is in 5 months, the same week that my child is due. :D
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Balance doesn't really matter. That's just where the forces are evening out, it doesn't say anything about the mass specific at the point of impact of the weapon. On your rattan, even though it balances close to where a real two-handed sword might balance, the part that you're hitting someone with still contains more mass than the tiny sliver of blade on the business end of a federschwert.
If you smash someone with the hilt of a federschwert using a mortschlag, you'll crack their skull just as efficiently as using a real sword, but since the the blade has so little mass where it counts, and f=ma, the force delivered will be much less than that of a full sized blade with equal balance and performance characteristics.
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It may contain slightly more mass but it is also striking over a significantly larger area thus your lbs/sqft is very very close to the same, and not every steel tournament that I've seen used Fendershwerts like the one you describe. I would put good money on the nylon swords acting much like a rattan one does for dent potential (Remember I've been using rattan for better than 13 years and have fought with nylon too) if most agree that Nylon is safer than steel, and nylon is the equal of rattan for damage potential, then "steel for steel".
I have no problem wearing a fencing mask & whatnot for rapier & light duty nylon longsword work, but would you feel comfortable going into a high stakes Steel HEMA tourney wearing one of those masks against a BOTN or SCA guy and then you make him twitch? You very well know how easy it is to develop tremendous power.
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What does BOTN style fighting have to do with HEMA? HEMA fighters have been using regular fencing masks with steel weapons since pretty much the dawn of HEMA and people don't get their skulls caved in like BOTN helmets. The proof is in the pudding.
Weapons designed for HEMA are designed for safety. The whole reason the federschwert was invented in period was to duplicate the performance, feel and balance of a real sword without hurting anyone for real. And besides, HEMA technique in sparring matches is not about trying to concuss your opponent like in BOTN. I'm not sure what your point is then. You're combining 3 very different sports and playing a what if game. Sure, you can take a steel HEMA sword, swing it as hard as you can and injure someone wearing a fencing helmet, but that's not what you do in HEMA...
BOTN is about taking a heavy steel crowbar roughly shaped like a medieval weapon and pounding someone into submission or on to the ground. It's pure apples and oranges.
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If someone is fighting BOTN or SCA style in a WMA/HEMA battle by trying to use brute force instead of refined technique, and subsequently bashing fencing masks in ... that person needs to be removed immediately as they are an unsafe competitor.
That has nothing to do with the safety of the mask; it's the training (safety) of the people wielding the weapons.
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That has nothing to do with the safety of the mask; it's the training (safety) of the people wielding the weapons.
QFT! Sir Edward and I (mostly me though) had a bit of an issue with our power levels in training yesterday since we've both haven't down any real training in a month our control was a little off and we were landing some pretty hard hits on each other. - Again my apologizes Sir Edward! :-[
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Oh it's OK. We were both ramping up a little. Those hits were just getting a little into the heavy side, so I thought I'd mention them before we ramped up further. I was doing it too though. So it's all good. :)
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That's why you can safely hit a fencing mask with a steel federschwert, but you need a 12 gauge steel helm for rattan. Physics :)
That's also a really good answer. :)
Oh I see! So I wouldn't have gnarled fingers if I didn't take that 'physics' to the hand? ;D
Yes, for that is 'applied' physics. lol
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you know I used to be an adventurer like you, until I took a sledge hammer to the bucket.