ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2008-03-27, 14:10:22
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So, what would be some good suggestions for SwordChick? I was thinking that it would be pretty cost effective to go with 14th C plate. Like the "chartres arms" and spaulders shown here:
http://www.madmattsarmory.com/inv_arms.php (http://www.madmattsarmory.com/inv_arms.php)
This shop also has a coat of plates kit and some nice breastplates.
I don't know what quality his work is, but the pictures are nice. :)
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Thanks, Ed. I was already composing my post (and trying to get my attachments to work) so here I go again...
Okay, deep breath, enough talking, I need to start putting something together. I'm counting on you gentlemen to help me. :)
In order to keep things affordable, I'll be putting together bits at a time. In terms of accuracy, issues such as stainless steel don't bother me. At the same time, I don't want anything glaringly wrong. (Though I suppose that is in the eye of the beholder.)
In an ideal world, I'd like to look like this (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,10.msg268.html#msg268). However that image is heavily photoshopped. I don't look that good in real life. :)
In terms of something more practical, Mr. Christian Tobler suggested that something like what he is wearing and which is based on the effigy below would work quite well, especially since I have a new gambeson.
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Thanks, Ed. I was already composing my post (and trying to get my attachments to work) so here I go again...
Woops, sorry. :)
Okay, deep breath, enough talking, I need to start putting something together. I'm counting on you gentlemen to help me. :)
In order to keep things affordable, I'll be putting together bits at a time. In terms of accuracy, issues such as stainless steel don't bother me. At the same time, I don't want anything glaringly wrong. (Though I suppose that is in the eye of the beholder.)
I'm with you on that. I cut all sorts of corners to keep things practical and affordable. Stainless will certainly make the maintenance easier! Often it costs slightly more, but it saves you a lot of headaches, and it doesn't have to be polished to a chrome finish either if that's something that bothers you (some people prefer more of a satin finish).
In an ideal world, I'd like to look like this (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,10.msg268.html#msg268). However that image is heavily photoshopped. I don't look that good in real life. :)
Sure you do! And you will once we get all your armor together.
In terms of something more practical, Mr. Christian Tobler suggested that something like what he is wearing and which is based on the effigy below would work quite well, especially since I have a new gambeson.
That's a pretty good suggestion. In those images, there's nothing on the arms, which I find interesting. Nevertheless, these look pretty good:
http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/14_century_arms.html (http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/14_century_arms.html)
Do you like that style of helm? The helm you want might also restrict the period a bit, if there's a certain look you'd like to go for. His suggestion is certainly good in terms of keeping the cost manageable.
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Thanks, Ed. I was already composing my post (and trying to get my attachments to work) so here I go again...
Woops, sorry. :)
Actually, that was a sincere thanks. :) I appreciate that you were watching out for me.
That's a pretty good suggestion. In those images, there's nothing on the arms, which I find interesting. Nevertheless, these look pretty good:
http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/14_century_arms.html (http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/14_century_arms.html)
No, I don't think those arms would work too well for me. From the website "These arms are a medium length with a bit larger diameter. Best fit would be for someone around 5'10" and 200lbs though there is a bit of latitude." I'm a bit smaller than that. :)
Do you like that style of helm? The helm you want might also restrict the period a bit, if there's a certain look you'd like to go for.
I do like the helm on the effigy. However, I'm still very open to suggestions.
Another sincere thank you!
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That's a pretty good suggestion. In those images, there's nothing on the arms, which I find interesting. Nevertheless, these look pretty good:
http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/14_century_arms.html (http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/14_century_arms.html)
No, I don't think those arms would work too well for me. From the website "These arms are a medium length with a bit larger diameter. Best fit would be for someone around 5'10" and 200lbs though there is a bit of latitude." I'm a bit smaller than that. :)
Hah, I didn't read the fine print. :) It sounds like they'd fit me though.. maybe with some extra room.
OK, I'll keep my eyes open for others.
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Yeah, I think the one Christian suggested to you would work nicely, but only if you've definately decided on the 14th century. I'll try to remember to bring in a couple books tonight that you might be interested in borrowing. They've got a lot of good "inspirational" pictures. (and by "inspirational" I mean "inspiring to make you spend money")
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So Pamela and I got together to pour over some books to start figuring out a plan for a harness. We've slightly narrowed it down to two potential pathways, depending on whether she goes for 14th c. or 15th. I think it will ultimately come down to cost and availability... mostly cost, actually.
I'll do two separate posts, one for the 14th c. plans, one for the 15th c. plans.
If we went 14th c., we'd do something similar to what Christian recommended for her above. (Yes, I'm saying "we", Pamela. Shut up!) So we're talking mid-14th c. Exact, 100% accuracy isn't necessary, but she still wants it to be within reason.
One of the "pros" is that she already has a 14th c. styled gambeson from Revival Clothing.
(http://www.revivalclothing.com/ProductImages/gambeson_LinenRed_chauses_LinenSlateBlue_side.jpg)
She would need a cuirass... preferably some kind of segmented cuirass, such as the famous Churburg type, such as this one:
(http://www.bestarmour.com/Pancir%209%20a.jpg)
http://www.bestarmour.com/pancir3.htm
And hourglass gauntlets, such as these ones that I own (possibly without the fingers):
(http://www.myarmoury.com/images/reviews/lm_gaunthg_f.jpg)
(Made by Lewis Moore, whom is currently MIA from the armour world from what I hear)
She also is very likely going to get a set of legs from Revival Martial Arts:
(http://www.revival.us/ProductImages/legharness_black_web.jpg)
http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=293
She's already gotten the chance to try the above legs on, and they fit her perfectly, so that's a definately plus.
And then finally the hardest part: The helmet. Some form of bascinet with aventail is what we're thinking. Something like this one below, though possibly without the visor:
(http://www.bestarmour.com/Slap%2017%20h.jpg)
http://www.bestarmour.com/slap2.htm
Not only will the helmet be the most expensive part, but it pretty much has to have the mail aventail.
This would give her a reasonably complete harness, and she can add further details to this later, such as a mail shirt, arms, etc.
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And now onto 15th c. possibilities.
We were looking at some ideas for an early 15th c. mercenary-type of harness that could be added to later. We came up with something that isn't too fancy.
First, we'd start with some sort of basic arming doublet, such as the one that Revival Clothing sells. Alternately, she can make a typical 15th century doublet and add points to it as necessary, such as this one here:
(http://www.revivalclothing.com/ProductImages/15thc_doublet_Wool_fntlcdgown_Linen_Montage.jpg)
http://www.revivalclothing.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=225
From there we'd need some type of cuirass. Something like this would be very nice:
(http://www.bestarmour.com/Pancir%201%20b.jpg)
http://www.bestarmour.com/pancir1.htm
We probably either need to make sure the cuirass doesn't have a fauld (such as the one above), or else was made by an armourer who really understands a woman's physique, since women's hips are different from men's.
We'd use the same legs as the 14th c. harness (and these legs are technically more correct for this 15th c. one):
(http://www.revival.us/ProductImages/legharness_black_web.jpg)
http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=293
We'd might skip the gauntlets initially, but eventually do something like this:
(http://www.bestarmour.com/Rukavice%2011%20a.jpg)
http://www.bestarmour.com/rukavice3.htm
For the helmet, we have several options. I was thinking the GDFB "celeta", since it looks pretty good, and you can't beat the price.
(http://www.cashanwei.com/images/products/big/AB0331_1.jpg)
http://www.cashanwei.com/product_details.asp?id=AB0331&mg=1
(that helmet looks infinitely better in person than it does on their website photos.) If we go with that, we'd likely need to get a mail standard, but those can be found for $95 at Ice Falcon Armoury:
http://store.fastcommerce.com/cat_icefalcon-ff80818118cf3b000118e2443818053f.html
If Pamela decided to go for a closed face helmet instead, she could go with this GDFB one:
(http://www.cashanwei.com/images/products/AB0451.jpg)
http://www.cashanwei.com/product_details.asp?id=AB0451
with this bevor from Windrose Armoury:
(http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/images/armour_images/n40-I.jpg)
http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=336
(since the GDFB bevor from CAS is pretty poorly formed so as not to fit any breastplates, unfortunately)
And eventually we could add additional pieces to this one as well. Including a mail fauld, spaulders, etc. I could easily see it heading towards something vaguely like this:
(http://www.bestarmour.com/Zbroj%2018%20d.jpg)
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And the compare and contrast phase between the two routes outlined above:
14th c. harness pros:
-Already have the gambeson as the foundation garment, which is a big step
14th c. harness cons:
-Helmet plus mail aventail will be very expensive if Pamela wants it done right (and knowing Pamela, I'm certain she does)
-Will still need something to point the leg harness to (since the gambeson alone doesn't have this... she'll need a pourpoint underneath, or at least a belt, which doesn't work as well)
15th c. harness pros:
-The GDFB helmets are looking pretty good without breaking the budget
-Making her own doublet shouldn't be too hard, all things considered, and she can always use that temporarily until she can afford a more expensive arming doublet
15th c. harness cons:
-Don't already have any of the pieces yet
I can't think of any other glaring things at the moment. Despite the fact that the above list seems to favor the 15th c. harness slightly, that's only on "paper", not in reality. It obviously all comes down to which route Pamela wants.
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And we will look terrific. :D
Seriously, thanks for helping me out. All my boys will be gone this weekend, so I'll have some unsupervised time to check out those links.
Another question: Shoes? Would Revival Clothing's ankle boots work for both looks? I feel the need to take advantage of their current sale.
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I don't envy you those choices Lady SwordChick, far too difficult
for me to decide! ;)
Here is a possible substitute for the helm at a very reasonable price.
http://www.excaliburbrothers.com/site/697427/product/22-H53 (http://www.excaliburbrothers.com/site/697427/product/22-H53)
I was considering getting one for myself. :)
Of course you'll have to make your own liner but that's really easy to do.
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Here is a possible substitute for the helm at a very reasonable price.
http://www.excaliburbrothers.com/site/697427/product/22-H53 (http://www.excaliburbrothers.com/site/697427/product/22-H53)
I like what is said about it on the website:
"# What An Awesome Unique Gift Idea for
* Dad or Mom
* Husband or Wife
* Boyfriend or Girlfriend
* Brother or Sister
* Aunt or Uncle
# Father's Day, Mother's Day, Halloween, Graduations, Birthdays, Christmas or Anniversaries
# Anytime you want to make them feel special!!!"
:D
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They obviously had you in mind! ;)
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Well, it seems you're leaning towards the revival.us legs in either case, so is that where you'll start? Bill's right, you'll need to figure out the pointing though depending on which way you go.
This is a great start so far!
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Yeah, I think the revival.us legs are almost a definite. (Ask Mark. He has the link and a strong hint that one leg could be for Mother's Day and the other for my birthday.) ;)
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I like what is said about it on the website:
"# What An Awesome Unique Gift Idea for
* Dad or Mom
* Husband or Wife
* Boyfriend or Girlfriend
* Brother or Sister
* Aunt or Uncle
# Father's Day, Mother's Day, Halloween, Graduations, Birthdays, Christmas or Anniversaries
# Anytime you want to make them feel special!!!"
:D
"Nothing says love like a gothic flanged mace." -Sir Edward Toton, circa 2007
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I think you can pull off the Revival Clothing ankle boots for either 14th or early 15th century without any issues. Same with the turnshoes. And you could also temporarily get away with cotton tights rather than proper hosen while you're saving up... the only thing that would look slightly odd is that you wouldn't have a codpiece... but then, you wouldn't technically need one, now would you? So in a way, it would look just as odd if you did have one. Funny, I never thought about that before. Pshh. Medieval cross dressing. Either way, you will likely eventually have a mail fauld or something that would hang over that area, so no one would ever see.
I'd forgotten to add that Pamela and I were talking about the possibility of her using jack chains instead of full arms, since GDFB makes those. EVERYBODY wears arms, but you never see anyone wear jack chains, which are super cool.
(http://www.casiberia.com/images/products/AB0087.jpg)
http://www.casiberia.com/product_details.asp?id=AB0087
I was lurking around the CAS site, and I found that they now carry these by GDFB:
(http://www.casiberia.com/images/products/AB0088.jpg)
That piece is very inexpensive, and would be perfect for the 15th c. kit. The only problem would be whether or not it fits. And I'm a little alarmed that it comes in two sizes: Large and Sexually Transmitted Disease (STD).
I also just noticed, Pamela, that they have a houndskull bascinet at a very reasonable price, which would work for your 14th c. route:
(http://www.casiberia.com/product_details.asp?id=AB0423&mg=1)
http://www.casiberia.com/product_details.asp?id=AB0423&mg=1
But you'd still need the mail aventail.
And it just occurred to me that Museum Replicas also has a bascinet which Sir Wolf posted not too long ago:
(http://www.museumreplicas.com/museumreplicas/images/300406i/300406-1-M.jpg)
http://www.museumreplicas.com/museumreplicas/detail.aspx?ID=353
And that one even comes with a mail aventail, though it is butted. It would be up to you whether you would want to replace it with more historical rivetted mail.
Geeze, I need to stop with all this fashion advice for Pamela. If I'm not careful, I may start saying things like, "FAAAABulous!", and I'll become much bitchier.
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Simple solution = I'll take one of everything. :o
I'd forgotten to add that Pamela and I were talking about the possibility of her using jack chains instead of full arms, since GDFB makes those. EVERYBODY wears arms, but you never see anyone wear jack chains, which are super cool.
The jack chains really are wicked cool.
Geeze, I need to stop with all this fashion advice for Pamela. If I'm not careful, I may start saying things like, "FAAAABulous!", and I'll become much bitchier.
I told you you aren't swooshy enough to be a fashion designer. :)
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Hey Pamela,
I found one of those archer's sallets that we were talking about on Peter Fuller's website:
(http://www.medievalrepro.com/Images/archsall.gif)
http://www.medievalrepro.com/Helmets.htm
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Wow, you've been busy! It looks like it's turning into a nice little shopping list. Fabulous! (heh) :)
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Wow, you've been busy! It looks like it's turning into a nice little shopping list. Fabulous! (heh) :)
Its because I spent so much time planning my own harness before starting to put the pieces together, and I'm still not quite finished, so I have so many books tagged and webpages bookmarked. :)
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I'm having WAY too much fun trying to spend Pamela's money here. :)
So Pamela: First, we were talking about whether or not to get gauntlets right away, and I'm finding plenty of period imagery where full plate harnesses are worn without gauntlets, so you're safe there. We were talking about fingerless demi-gauntlets, and wondering whether that was confined to the 14th century, or whether that continued into the 15th. Well, it definately continued into the 15th. Check out folio 9r in Paulus Kal's treatise:
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00001840/images/index.html?seite=23
There are a number of other images in Kal showing demi-gauntlets over mail gloves, too, and all of this is from the third quarter of the 15th c.
On a similar note, we were talking about a cuirass that only covered the front. There are a lot of images in Kal of fully armoured, mounted knights who appear to not have back plates. Look at folios 6v, 8v, 13r, 15r, 16r, 17r. 6v in particular:
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00001840/images/index.html?seite=18
This image might imply that you could get away with your Revival Clothing gambeson. While it may be intended for 14th c, the rough design might transfer over to later periods. Perhaps not up to living history standards, but I think you might be able to get away with it. Further, the extra padding of the gambeson would probably be too thick for both breast and back plate, but a frontal piece would work well. In the color version of the photo, it appears that the mail fauld is worn under the gambeson.
Of course, you'd still need an arming doublet or pourpoint in order to point the legs. But if you were leaning at all towards 15th c, but the idea of using your gambeson was holding you into the 14th, this might be a tie breaker.
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I'm having WAY too much fun trying to spend Pamela's money here. :)
I truly do appreciate the help. (Thank you dahling! kiss kiss :-*)
That's good news about the half gauntlets or no gauntlets being correct. As you know, I get cranky with trying to find a pair of gloves that fit. So skipping the gauntlets, at least for now, certainly does appeal to me.
On a similar note, we were talking about a cuirass that only covered the front. There are a lot of images in Kal of fully armoured, mounted knights who appear to not have back plates.
Hmm, again, that sounds quite appealing. I can get closer to a complete look sooner.
Of course, you'd still need an arming doublet or pourpoint in order to point the legs. But if you were leaning at all towards 15th c, but the idea of using your gambeson was holding you into the 14th, this might be a tie breaker.
Actually, at this point, I'm kinda excited about attempting to make the arming doublet. And, I was worried about using my gambeson after talking about the possibility that the armour would leave marks on a gambeson. I've decided I like the natural color, so I don't want to see it abused too soon.
I have taken my first official, though minor step. I took advantage of Revival Clothing's March sale and got the ankle boots.
I am leaning (okay, toppling) towards the revival.us legs. I was talking to Christian about them again today. :)
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Hey folks,
Yay! Let's *all* help Pamela spend her money. First, I'll take a new watch, a Ferrari, a steak dinner, oh, and...a complete Robert MacPhearson harness!! ;) But seriously...
First, Brother Bill - be careful about gauntlets...if we're talking about Fechtbucher, they are (almost certainly) always wearing them. That they aren't always drawn appears to be an artistic convention. Good examples of what I mean are in several Talhoffers and in Gladiatoria - the gauntlets are only drawn when the technique specifically involves them; otherwise they're omitted for the sake of showing the fingers clearly.
There may be other iconographic sources that show this, with the intent of the fighter truly not wearing them, but we can draw such a conclusion from the treatises.
Now, the jack chains are a great idea - I know of two who wear them: AEMMA's Brian McIlmolye and "Big" Dave Teague. They're way cool...
If you have a foundation garment, and I can see some rationale for using the RC gambeson (but for the legs, your idea of making one is better, Pamela - though you could get the pourpoint as well), based on the Kal evidence, you should first get, and I think in this order:
Helmet
Gauntlets
Breastplate or Brigandine or Coat of Plates
If you're going 15th c., the GDFB breastplate looks good, and I've been meaning to get one to evaluate for our guys (hint, hint Ed: you'll be hearing from me soon!). Has anyone seen this yet?
The jack chains would be a great, inexpensive compliment to that, though they're *usually* shown on guys wearing either just the jack, or a brigandine.
GDFB certainly has helmets that'll work.
The Revival.us legs will go with all of the above.
Now, gauntlets...one possibility is the mitten variety sold on Ebay by Armstreet/Steel Mastery. I haven't evaluated them yet, so I'm not sure. But in any case, these would go on over whatever leather gloves fit you.
I'm at work, so that's all I have for now, but I'll keep an eye out on this thread...
CHT
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If you're going 15th c., the GDFB breastplate looks good, and I've been meaning to get one to evaluate for our guys (hint, hint Ed: you'll be hearing from me soon!). Has anyone seen this yet?
Welcome to the forum!!
Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to see the breastplates yet. I'm curious about them as well.
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Hi Christian! Gee, it's been ages since I've heard from you. :D
Thank you for helping me on this. My worry about gauntlets is finding a pair small enough. Even my padded gloves are too big. I get frustrated when my hands move, but my gloves, and therefore my sword, don't. Any advice you could throw my way about gauntlets would be wonderful.
Oh, and thanks again for letting me try on the legs. ;) If you are going to play fashion designer like Bill, then here's a kiss kiss in your general direction as well. :-*
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I'll shop with you for gaunts, I need them to. I'm sure a custom set could be made to fit perfectly, I just haven't looked into it yet. :)
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First, Brother Bill - be careful about gauntlets...if we're talking about Fechtbucher, they are (almost certainly) always wearing them. That they aren't always drawn appears to be an artistic convention. Good examples of what I mean are in several Talhoffers and in Gladiatoria - the gauntlets are only drawn when the technique specifically involves them; otherwise they're omitted for the sake of showing the fingers clearly.
There may be other iconographic sources that show this, with the intent of the fighter truly not wearing them, but we can draw such a conclusion from the treatises.
I actually was thinking of other sources besides the fechtbucher, but point taken. In fact, as I think about it, there may be other reasons they aren't wearing the gauntlets in those sources. For example, there's a painting on p. 95 of Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight without them, but the wearer is not in combat, and his bearing water to King David, so perhaps this is why the gauntlets are not present. There are some funerary brasses of knights without gauntlets as well, but again, that does not depict combat.
The jack chains would be a great, inexpensive compliment to that, though they're *usually* shown on guys wearing either just the jack, or a brigandine.
Yeah, I mentioned this to Pamela as well. I've only seen them on padded jacks alone or in combination with a brigandine, and never with any other form of harness. Still, I think they're plausible enough, if we keep it within reason. Glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks so. :)
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I'll shop with you for gaunts, I need them to. I'm sure a custom set could be made to fit perfectly, I just haven't looked into it yet. :)
Okay, kiss kiss for you too! :-*
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Moral of story: When you help women buy armour, they kiss you.
Damn, I love this business...
Onto more serious business: Pamela, I'm working on the same problem with my student Catriona. She's a powerhouse, but petite. Finding gauntlets for her is going to be an ongoing problem.
CHT
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Maybe Pamela needs that breastplate that Bill posted about...
CHT
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That's not a bad idea. I just pulled out a tape measure to check some of that sizing against myself and it might be too small for me (or barely doable, but I'd be concerned about the waist).
So is this the part where we ask Pamela for her measurements? :)
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So is this the part where we ask Pamela for her measurements? :)
I'm probably in enough trouble with Mark as it is for suggesting all this expensive armor. :)
My concern about that is the faulds... Christian had made a great point to Pamela about faulds made for men not fitting well on women. But then, maybe that's not a concern if it's only the front piece? I really don't know.
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It's a lovely piece and I have no objection to spending that kind of money on one piece, but it's too soon. I'm still weighing my options. Though, what do you think? Would it work? Is it more 14th or 15th century? (Thanks for helping me with the learning process.)
And, if I do spend that much, I need time to save for it. Unlike Bill, I don't have a pretty girlfriend I could sell. :D Hmm...There is my firstborn. Anybody want an academically gifted and musically talented bass player?
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Well Pamela, the GDFB offering is the safer bet anyway - cheap(!), and more likely to fit, I think. Given that it'll cost less than 1/5 what the Stanislav Proczek breastplate costs, it makes sense.
~C
PS. Alternate Plan: kidnap Bill's girlfriend, so *you* can sell her. ;) That gets you: the breastplate, that bastard sword from the Baltimore show, and who knows...
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Well, you could always do what I do--- deficit spending. :)
Then again, there's always the kids' college funds!
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PS. Alternate Plan: kidnap Bill's girlfriend, so *you* can sell her. ;) That gets you: the breastplate, that bastard sword from the Baltimore show, and who knows...
I am sooo not continuing this conversation, for my own safety...
Anyway, Pamela is on her way. As of tonight, she's bartered her first helmet and bevor combo. And they fit quite nicely, too.
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Did she get the sallet we saw at your place Bill?
CHT
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Did she get the sallet we saw at your place Bill?
CHT
Nope, that sallet/bevor combo went to Ed. She got this one:
(http://www.casiberia.com/images/products/AB0451.jpg)
http://www.casiberia.com/product_details.asp?id=AB0451
The sallet is incredibly nice for the price, but unfortunately the visor of this particular one doesn't stay down or up. I was contemplating sending it to someone to have a spring pin added. Pamela tried it on tonight, and it fit her incredibly well. We were talking about how it shouldn't be too much trouble to remove the visor and leave it as an open face sallet.
She also now owns the Windrose bevor that you had told me about. The bevor was pretty good considering it was cheap. Actually, for the price, it was pretty fantastic, but it just barely didn't fit right with my harness. If I put it over the cuirass, it slid around a lot. It fit reasonably well under the cuirass, but it pressed fairly uncomfortably against my collar bones, and I could touch it with my face if I dipped my head slightly forward. I could have tweaked it a bit and forced it, but I think it'll serve Pamela better. Besides which, I've decided to stick with the open faced celeta with the mail standard for my neck, so the only reason to keep the sallet and bevor were simply because they were cool. :) I'd rather Pamela get use from them than have them simply decorating my closet.
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So Pamela's got the head protection. She's working on making her arming doublet. She's knows where she's getting her legs, and she's probably going with the GDFB jack chains for the arms. The torso portion is still a little iffy, though she's leaning towards the GDFB breastplate (if she doesn't decide to go custom). That still leaves the hands. I still think she can get away without gauntlets for awhile, as there are tons of pictures of lower class men-at-arms and mercenaries in various iconography, such as in the Chronicles of Froissart. Many of these soldiers are depicted with helmet (almost always open faced that I've seen), torso protection (usually brigandines, though sometimes it appears to be some sort of solid plate with clothing over it), and sometimes with plate arm defenses. So this isn't quite what Pamela's harness is shaping out to be, but I think we can skirt around that for the time being until she can get good gauntlets that fit her.
However, I was looking at BestArmour, and these might work out quite nicely:
(http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/D%20Rukavice%2011%20a.jpg)
http://www.bestarmour.com/rukavice3.htm
They're fingerless, so that might mean that the fit won't be as big of a concern. They're also significantly cheaper than other gauntlets because of this. (4000 CZK = $249.84 USD, not counting shipping) On the other hand, BestArmour does custom make the gauntlets, so maybe Pamela would rather have full gauntlets, since they can probably make them to fit her.
Either way, "word on the street" is that BestArmour has about a year waiting list right now. Still, I'm considering getting on that list for a set of custom gauntlets... Pamela, if you're interested, let me know, maybe we can go in on an order and split shipping from the Czech Republic.
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I am so gosh darn happy! Wow, Bill, I think this is the first time someone has given me a gift as a thank you for all my nagging. :) Thank you, my friend.
<wearing the helmet and doing a little happy dance>
Would you like a tall skinny bass player in exchange? Oh, that's right. You are one. :D
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well we want pictures Pam!!!!
remember Bill, we don't see jack chains on anything but jacks. meaning low man on the totem pole as far as plate. i don't think they would work so well on an arming doublet with a bunch of other armour. If she's going for a "more plate" approach, I'd skip the jack chains. I still wear my sleeveless jack with full arms and gauntlets, only because I'm a billman and an archer. As soon as I find the right legs and breastplate I'll drop the jack :)
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee66/medievalguy88/MTA%202008/IMG_0955.jpg?t=1207221422 here u can see the new 28 layer jack jamesb made for a guy in Lord Greys. those are patrick thaden's chains he's wearin :)
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Either way, "word on the street" is that BestArmour has about a year waiting list right now. Still, I'm considering getting on that list for a set of custom gauntlets... Pamela, if you're interested, let me know, maybe we can go in on an order and split shipping from the Czech Republic.
Let me know if you guys do this, I see all sorts of things I like.
I love the look of these: http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/rukavice22.html (http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/rukavice22.html)
Though I suspect these would work better with the wide cuffs on my vambraces: http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/rukavice23.html (http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/rukavice23.html)
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Some other possible links for custom work:
http://justus.pair.com/GalleryPhotos/slides/Hourglass.html (http://justus.pair.com/GalleryPhotos/slides/Hourglass.html)
http://www.medievalrepro.com/ (http://www.medievalrepro.com/)
http://www.ageofarmour.com/past.html (http://www.ageofarmour.com/past.html)
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If you're going to go with BestArmour, and incur the wait anyway, I'd really advise getting fingers on the gauntlets, or get mitten gauntlets. Sure, there's some evidence for half-gauntlets with mail fingers, but really for the 15th c., that's an oddity, and much less protective at that if you ever wanted to bout with steel blunts.
C
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remember Bill, we don't see jack chains on anything but jacks. meaning low man on the totem pole as far as plate. i don't think they would work so well on an arming doublet with a bunch of other armour. If she's going for a "more plate" approach, I'd skip the jack chains.
Yeah, I admit to having mixed feelings about the jack chains... I think if I were suggesting it to be normal, then it'd be out of the question. I don't think it's entirely unplausible, though, and that's why I think Pamela could get away with it for the time being until she eventually upgraded. But your point is definately well taken.
(And FYI, in case I've never said this before, you and your guys have some FANTASTIC kit!)
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Though I suspect these would work better with the wide cuffs on my vambraces: http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/rukavice23.html (http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/rukavice23.html)
Go with the gothic ones, Ed. This second one is too early period for your kit.
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I agree. When I get a chance, I need to measure the end of the vambrace, since it flares out a little and is already slightly big on my arm.
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http://www.armouronline.com/usd/product/574/breast__back_plates.html i've not seen much of their work up close. i have a paid of their gauntlets that are a number of years old (i got them like 4th hand) and they suck bad. these ones: http://www.armouronline.com/usd/product/587/gauntlet.html but who knows if they've gotten better etc.
these two pieces have me wondering if its a good idea to order or not: http://www.armouronline.com/usd/product/482/shank_guard.html http://www.armouronline.com/usd/product/480/knee_guard.html but at 176 plus shipping for full greaves.... hmmmmmmmm is it almost too good to be true?
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http://www.armouronline.com/usd/product/574/breast__back_plates.html i've not seen much of their work up close. i have a paid of their gauntlets that are a number of years old (i got them like 4th hand) and they suck bad. these ones: http://www.armouronline.com/usd/product/587/gauntlet.html but who knows if they've gotten better etc.
these two pieces have me wondering if its a good idea to order or not: http://www.armouronline.com/usd/product/482/shank_guard.html http://www.armouronline.com/usd/product/480/knee_guard.html but at 176 plus shipping for full greaves.... hmmmmmmmm is it almost too good to be true?
Yeah, from the photos they don't look too shabby... but I don't blame you for being hesitant. I don't know of any reviews of these guys.
Its funny, I've seen several modern versions of that exact same gauntlet style, and every single one has been terrible. I wonder what every is doing wrong? Maybe the design is more subtle than it looks, and people underestimate them?
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they recently... uh prob past 5 years now, is that recent? changed there names. they used to be called K n Kart armor. see if you can find any reviews on that.
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Its funny, I've seen several modern versions of that exact same gauntlet style, and every single one has been terrible. I wonder what every is doing wrong? Maybe the design is more subtle than it looks, and people underestimate them?
That's been my experience as well. I have a pair like this (I think they were the old CAS/I versions or something), and they're terrible. I've had them packed away for a while now, but if I recall, it was very difficult to even close the hand.
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Word on the street is that a certain Sword Chick is picking up a certain GDFB breastplate....
("Word on the street"? Who am I; Huggie Bear?)
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("Word on the street"? Who am I; Huggie Bear?)
"Well, we won't hold that against you, that's for every man to decide for himself."
~ Roland: from the movie A Knight's Tale
:D
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("Word on the street"? Who am I; Huggie Bear?)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=T01XHjhR_zk
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I am so gosh darn happy! Wow, Bill, I think this is the first time someone has given me a gift as a thank you for all my nagging. :) Thank you, my friend.
<wearing the helmet and doing a little happy dance>
Would you like a tall skinny bass player in exchange? Oh, that's right. You are one. :D
OOOOOOOOOH snap. i just read this post. :)
hey Pamela do you have any pictures of your new helmet and bevor yet?
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hey Pamela do you have any pictures of your new helmet and bevor yet?
Not yet. And I might as well wait until the breastplate Huggy Bear was referring to arrives. :D
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("Word on the street"? Who am I; Huggie Bear?)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=T01XHjhR_zk
WHAT!? That's not Huggy Bear.
THIS is Huggy Bear:
(http://images.stampedeblue.com/images/admin/huggybear.jpg)
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On my way! Legs may be appearing this spring/summer. Gauntlets will be a bit more problematic. I am so very gosh darn excited!!!!!!!!
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Stylin'!!!
You're well on your way. It's looking great so far! And sandwiched between us in the other photo, you're starting to blend in...
Heh. Armored knight sandwich. :)
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a rose between two thorns.
WOW those look great. man if i don't get a breastplate this weekend I might be seriously tempted at one of those. the helms look great too. can't wait to see more detailed pictures etc and pick mine up friday night!!!!!! woo hoo
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Thank you, Sir Wolf! <blush>
Ed, Thank you for all of your help!
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oh, i found you some arms:
http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/gothic_arms.html]
there instock now and these rock!! if you need to shorten them up i'm sure he could do it, if not we could. whats nice about these is the elbows tie onto your arming coat, so they will fit into your elbow, not flop around rereading it, he says he has s, m, l,lx so he can size it. GET EM!!! heheh
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a rose between two thorns.
Hey, are you calling me prickly? Hehe :)
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a rose between two thorns.
Hey, are you calling me prickly? Hehe :)
naa just a bit thornie
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I recently bought those same arms from William Hurt - they're awesome and worth every cent.
Pamela - I suspect the bevor needs to go under the breastplate here.
CHT
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Ed, Thank you for all of your help!
My pleasure :)
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oh, i found you some arms:
http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/gothic_arms.html]
there instock now and these rock!! if you need to shorten them up i'm sure he could do it, if not we could. whats nice about these is the elbows tie onto your arming coat, so they will fit into your elbow, not flop around rereading it, he says he has s, m, l,lx so he can size it. GET EM!!! heheh
Ooh, those are pretty. So many options to think about. :)
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Another friend just gave me another idea of the look I should go for. He said I look like something from "Labyrinth". :D
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Another friend just gave me another idea of the look I should go for. He said I look like something from "Labyrinth". :D
Not even close! ;)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/WebFun/goblin7.jpg)
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Another friend just gave me another idea of the look I should go for. He said I look like something from "Labyrinth". :D
HA! I know exactly what your friend is talking about, too... the guys who ride the dinosaur-like mounts.
So Pamela's harness is starting to come together. I agree with Christian about the bevor going under the breast plate... in fact, we were talking about this when we first put it on. We'd already put on the breast plate, so we went without the bevor for class, but stuck it on briefly for a photo op. The pieces are a tad big for her, but not out of the question. The sallet looks really good with the visor up, except that her sallet won't stay up, unfortunately. We were talking about the possibility of either:
1) sending it to somebody to make a spring pin for it (anyone have a suggestion on who?)
or
2) removing the visor entirely for an open face piece.
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tell me more about her visor. does it not stay in place when ist down or when its up? if it wont stay in palce when its up that can be fixed with a leather washer between the visor and the helmet where it is riveted. if it won't stay down when down then ya, a spring pin can be made from 2 rivets and a hacksaw blade. :)
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tell me more about her visor. does it not stay in place when ist down or when its up? if it wont stay in palce when its up that can be fixed with a leather washer between the visor and the helmet where it is riveted. if it won't stay down when down then ya, a spring pin can be made from 2 rivets and a hacksaw blade. :)
It definately won't stay up... the leather washer idea is pretty good. It only stays down because its heavy enough, but if she were doing serious fighting with it, I wouldn't trust it to stay closed on its own. Our harnisfechten practices are more theoritical... we don't bout with those techniques the way we do with the unarmoured techniques, so for the time being its not too much of a concern about how well it stays closed.
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And here's what the jack chains would look like. (ignore Mark's finger holding them up)
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And jack chains made a lovely Mother's Day gift. Mark said he was giving arm candy to his arm candy. Ain't that sweet? :) At least one of you ("Nothing says 'love' like a flanged mace.") knew about it and kept the secret very well. ;)
Rumor has it legs are still a strong possibility for a future gift occasion, apparently they are still out of stock.
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Nothing says love like a pair of jack chains? :)
Glad you liked them! Yes, I kept my mouth shut on that one. :)
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Well, then, happy Mother's Day! :)
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fabrics-store.com just announced new colors and a sale on their heavy weight (7.1 oz) linen. Green! It's a sign that I need to get busy making an arming doublet. I have Period Patterns, No. 101, Medieval Military Garments. http://www.pillagedvillage.com/cart/images/bigpics/MP-101.gif
I was wondering if View III, slightly modified would be appropriate? (Eliminate the crotch flap, and fitted more closely.) Any other suggestions for modifications? Buttons or lace up?
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the crotch flap i think is for the hosen. i have this pattern, but admit I've never made anything but the surcoat with it. make sure you set the sleeves up high. tight in the arm pit, and rotate them a tad forward, given more fabric in the shoulder blade area of the arm pit. this should help when raising arms not to bring the waist line up. i made my arming doublet out of 1 layer of 5 oz red, and 3 layers of 5 oz white. then i used cotton toe to pad the breast and back and shoulder area. i should remake mine, but I'm too lazy heheh. also, think about if you area going to attach legs to them. that might make them longer. i now have to add some length to mine since i am changing things up and adding legs to my kit
(http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/31.jpg)
(http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/33.jpg)
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It's funny, the crotch flap is for the jacket. View III is called "quilted short gambeson with crotch flap & long sleeves." ??? I do think I'll leave that part off though.
How long should I make it? The pattern has it stopping about mid-hip.
Sir Wolf, yours looks very nice! So I appreciate any advice you send my way.
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You're welcome to borrow my arming cotte to look at, if that helps you at all.
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I think Pamela needs something like this:
(http://www.jetrefilm.com/Nicole2Blo-res.jpg)
It's all aluminum: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=67661 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=67661)
:)
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It's all aluminum: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=67661 (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=67661)
BTW, I wasn't implying you need aluminum, I was just pointing it out. :)
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yes you were Ed, we know it, you know it, the world knows it ;) hehehe ya that chick did look hot in armour hehehe
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If they ever shoot a movie that calls for a middle-aged frumpy housewife in armour, I'll be perfect for the role. :)
In the meantime, I was wondering if any of you have heard about the new legs from Revival Martial Arts. The legs, that I don't know are coming (didn't make it for Mother's Day, but my birthday is only a month away), have shipped. But I have the feeling they will not be what I'm expecting. Mark ordered them back when this topic first started. Revival Martial Arts charged his credit card, but the legs never appeared. Last week he called them by phone and they were surprised we had not been contacted. Apparently they have "upgraded" the legs and it is now the "upgraded" version that is being sent out.
Order Notes:
6Jun2008: Leg harness upgraded to new harness w/ brass trim.
Do you think brass trim will be appropriate? I'm hoping they will be essentially the same legs. I'm worried they changed more than the trim and they will no longer fit or look appropriate. Also, I can no longer find the leg harness on the website. ???
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Hmmm... I have the same legs on order, probably from the same time frame that Mark placed the order. I e-mailed them not too long ago about an update, but never received a response. I wouldn't have known about this change if you didn't post it here. :( The same photos have been on their website at least until a couple weeks ago, though they seem to be gone right now. I'm not happy about this.
I'm going to wait until they arrive, but I may just return them when I get them. We'll see.
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You might want to actually give them a call. Apparently someone was supposed to contact us about the change, but obviously we weren't. ???
Mine have been shipped, maybe Mark can show them to you. (After all, if they work, I'm still supposed to act surprised.) ;)
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If they ever shoot a movie that calls for a middle-aged frumpy housewife in armour, I'll be perfect for the role. :)
Well, I don't think you're frumpy. :)
That's always frustrating when a product gets changed on you after you've ordered it. It's more understandable when you go to exchange an item and they no longer have the old model, but after you've placed the order seems somewhat deceptive to me. For all we know, they've changed to something with a lower cost due to lower manufacturing quality.
Still, I'd love to see it when it gets here. I never did get around to ordering any for myself. I've been wanting to try pointing my existing legs to the new arming cotte before ordering anything else (and still haven't gotten to that either).
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we can work on that Saturday morning if u can remember :)
hey what ya guys doing Saturday? I'm coming down to Ed's that morning, maybe we can all do lunch or something :) talk about armour, swords etc hehe
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Ah, wish I could! My schedule won't allow it this week. :(
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Unfortunately I'll be in New York for the Chivalric Weekend. That's too bad, otherwise I would have definately liked to meet up.
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Well, the legs were a huge disappointment. The "upgraded" versions did not come with the greaves, had no way to point them without modifications, and were poor workmanship in general. They will be going back. :(
I'll be posting on the classifieds hoping someone wants to get rid of a pair of the original ones. Otherwise, back to the drawing board...
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can u take a picture first before you send them back? pointing places can always be fixed. back workmanship is hard to fix. sorry u didnt like them :(
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My gripe with the pointing places is the "not as advertised" issue. The legs that we ordered and the ones that we received were completely different. >:(
I'm extremely disappointed in the customer service of Revival Martial Arts (absolutely not to be confused with Revival Clothing, a company with outstanding customer service.) Our credit card was charged ages ago and no product arrived until Mark called last week to inquire. They acted confused that we had not been contacted already and said they would send out the "upgraded" version immediately. It's also very suspicious that the legs are no longer listed on the website. (The old link still works, but if you do a search on leg harness, nothing appears.)
"Upgrading" is certainly in the eye of the beholder. If possible, I'll try to get a photo or two of them. Mark may have loaded them in his car already. He's going to call Revival Martial Arts and send the legs back soon.
I'm sad because the ones we ordered were a nice fit for off the rack. It was fun when Sir Christian was here and helped me play Cinderella and try them on. (Much cooler and more practical than glass slippers.)
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Yeah, they really were a disappointment. They'd be fine for SCA combat, I suppose, but they had non-historical brass border rivited on (it was kind of hokey looking, in a way), they were much heavier, a little bigger, and, as Pamela said, there were no greaves. Ed pointed out several places where there seemed to be mistakes in the construction (extra holes, etc), but at least those didn't show unless you went looking for them. Still, the biggest problem, as Pamela said, is that these are not the legs that were advertised.
I've cancelled my order with them because of this. :( I'm also completely done with Revival.us/Chivalry Bookshelf. I've had issues with getting books from them in the past, had damaged goods show up from them, and had a number of little issues. I used to give them the benefit of the doubt for being a small company. But at this point I realize I've given them far too many chances, so my money is going elsewhere from here on out. Its a shame, because they have products I like, but from now on if any of my students asks me about them, I'm going to steer them someplace else.
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Yeah this is a real shame. Functionally, the legs would be fine for use. My biggest gripe is that they're not what was advertised on the site, and they did some things in the construction that just seemed sloppy.
Examples -- As Bill already mentioned, there were extra holes drilled. It looked like a few were drilled in the wrong spots, so new ones were drilled correctly. We found about 4 or 5 of these in the pair. They're not visible from the outside and wouldn't hurt anything, so it's more of a "sloppy" thing than being a real flaw.
Also, the straps look like they were all picked at random out of a box of leftovers or something. No two were alike. All different colors and thicknesses. At least usually both sections of leather in each pair matched, but there was one obvious case where they didn't. Some of them were riveted in such a way that you could rotate the leather on the rivet, and others you couldn't.
The edges were rolled well, and the cuisses were nicely shaped. Much heavier than the previous design, but not out of spec I don't think (and well suited for SCA combat I think). However, the articulation in the knees wasn't as smooth as I'd prefer, allowing one knee to bend a bit further than the other.
The brass edging didn't look good to me, but for SCA combat it wouldn't matter (and is perhaps fancier than what many people use). I know the legs in my harness have practically no detailing, or contouring to the shape of the leg, and this set has more on both counts. But then again, mine doesn't have mistakes and inconsistent use of leather.
I think they'd be fine as a beater set on the field if you're an SCA fighter who wants a late 14th or 15th C sort of look.
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Photos. As Ed stated, these would be fine for some purposes. They simply will not do for mine.
I tried to get a full shot of both, a shot of a pair of leather straps and one of the mis-made holes. This was a rush job, so the quality of the pics is not good.
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ug thats horrible.
glad u sent them back too. i know it must be dissapointing. :(
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Are they going to give you the full refund?
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Mark called today and, yes, we will be getting a full refund. Though it might be a good idea to double check our credit card statement to make sure that we do.
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I got my full refund from them, so that's good news. They said they plan on having the old style in stock soon, that's why they hadn't sent it to me. I'm not holding my breath.
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3062/2592442273_af1bb3a916_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3211/2592441373_700a3d6ba1_b.jpg)
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Wow, the flash reflects away making them look almost black. Do you have a tripod to take pics without the flash?
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Yeah, those are the same legs that I have. They're a little "tanky" in terms of weight, but otherwise they're pretty decent. And I think they fit Pamela well enough, too.
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Yeah, those are the same legs that I have. They're a little "tanky" in terms of weight, but otherwise they're pretty decent. And I think they fit Pamela well enough, too.
Would you mind letting me try them on again sometime? (Insert Das Bill's sarcastic reply here.) :)
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(Insert Das Bill's sarcastic reply here.) :)
Er.... Your mom? (That's about as clever as I get with the sarcastic comments these days, what with spending so much time around David...)
And of course you can try them on.
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hey, here u go:
http://www.varmouries.com/vspecial.html
Features: neck (gorget) , two shoulders set, chest and back plates that hinge from rivets on the sides. This size here is about : 36" bust, 28" waist, but has straps and can be let out to 40" bust / 35" waist (approx). Fantasy Female Armour
==============
(val_30) - 20 ga steel, ROUGH hammered - but POLISHED to resist rust ! ...Made by Rob around 2006, rented a few times, now has NEW straps.
==============
Price $800 CAD
(http://www.varmouries.com/specials/val_030.jpg)
(http://www.varmouries.com/specials/val_030b.jpg)
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Wow, gorgeous :)
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WOW indeed! Great find Sir Wolf!
I'll have to bookmark that for "future" consideration for my love...I think she would make
a great Joan of Arc! :D
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http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=83772&highlight=
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/Murdoch_McArthur/female_bp.jpg)
Made by Trehearth armoury 1 solid piece front
1 solid back
mild steel
Very very nice piece.
She's given up ever fitting it again and says she'll probably never fight she was
26 waist 38 d cup
NEVER fought it worn for a couple halloweens and such.
SOOOOooooo
Here is the pic off Truehearth's website
She wants $475 for it or make her an offer
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Cheaper than implants. :)
Okay, silly question, but isn't the traditional rounded "male" design intended to deflect the blow away from the center of the torso and wouldn't a "female" design direct some blows towards the center of the torso?
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no i dont think so and heres why.
male on field of battle.. you walk on field, and while he is ummm staring you hit him in the head or other body ... then on to the next male opponient, repeat same steps
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Ah, that explains it! That sounds darn right useful.
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Yeah, I see how that works. You won't have to worry about strikes against the sternum if all of your opponents are gawking and distracted. :)
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All boobie jokes aside...I doubt such a contraption makes for safe protection. In general, soft tissue on the body is protected by armour that is supported on either side against harder bodily structures.
All the best,
Christian
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Quite true. I think my concern (and I suspect Pamela's as well) is how sharp/narrow of a surface this example has at the center of the sternum. Sport fencing chest-protectors tend to have a wider flat area in the center, if I recall correctly, and they're not intended for taking heavy percussive blows.
Are there historical examples that are so... ahem.. anatomically endowed?
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Quite true. I think my concern (and I suspect Pamela's as well) is how sharp/narrow of a surface this example has at the center of the sternum.
Exactly. I was being silly, but my question was serious. I think a more traditional breastplate would provide better protection and, honestly, would be more comfortable to wear.
As a point of reference, I wear a "male" sport fencing chest protector for rapier fencing. I wear it more for comfort though. It fits me better. (Insert joke here, but I'll be the first to point out that a 38D I'm not.)
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So what do you think? The descriptions are slightly different, but to my untrained eye the photos look like the same legs.
The new listing
http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=336
The previous listing
http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=293
Do I try again? And I wonder what happened to the greaves if they are the same. Certainly neither picture matches the legs that were actually sent to me the first time.
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i dunno, they dont look too off from the ones you got. i would say stay clear of these imho.
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hmmmm since your looking for legs, heres some links
http://www.madmattsarmory.com/inv_legs.php
http://spiers-saddlery.stores.yahoo.net/standststful.html
http://spiers-saddlery.stores.yahoo.net/greaves.html
www.icefalcon.com
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i dunno, they dont look too off from the ones you got. i would say stay clear of these imho.
No, they look the same as the ones I ordered. My problem was that the ones received were not what I ordered. I received the "upgraded" ones, which were anything but. I was wondering if the old ones were back in stock or if it was more false advertising. Everyone is away at Pennsic so I'll wait until sometime next week to shoot them an email and see what happens.
See, I really liked the old ones. I tried on Christian's and they fit my long scrawny legs pretty well for something that's off the rack.
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oh i see, my apologies i misunderstoof you.
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No apologies needed. I didn't make myself clear. :)
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So what do you think? The descriptions are slightly different, but to my untrained eye the photos look like the same legs.
The new listing
http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=336
The previous listing
http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=293
Do I try again? And I wonder what happened to the greaves if they are the same. Certainly neither picture matches the legs that were actually sent to me the first time.
It looks like they no longer include greaves. It also looks like they've increased the steel thickness... I don't know what the previous ones were, but I recall Christian's felt fairly light, and these current ones are 14 gauge (not likely to be very light). The price is still very good, particularly for stainless steel, but due to previous experiences with the company, I personally suggest you not give them any money. If I recall, the GDFB ones that I have fit you well (you can always try them on again if you want), and if you go through our "source", you might be able to get them for not too much more than the Revival.us ones.
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If I recall, the GDFB ones that I have fit you well (you can always try them on again if you want)
I'd like to take you up on that. :)
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the source also said the greaves were back in stock.
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It looks like they no longer include greaves. It also looks like they've increased the steel thickness... I don't know what the previous ones were, but I recall Christian's felt fairly light, and these current ones are 14 gauge (not likely to be very light). The price is still very good, particularly for stainless steel, but due to previous experiences with the company, I personally suggest you not give them any money. If I recall, the GDFB ones that I have fit you well (you can always try them on again if you want), and if you go through our "source", you might be able to get them for not too much more than the Revival.us ones.
I remember those as being very light as well. Possibly 18 gauge?
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Hi Gentlemen!
I need your help again. I noticed that The Mercenary's Tailor is having a sale on gauntlets. I emailed about sizing and if I send gloves that fit me, Mr. Senefelder would line a pair of gauntlets with those.
So, would any of these gauntlets (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=24&osCsid=99pvddm3vn491hr90krv53n5g3) work with my armour thus far?
What are your recommendations?
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I'm thinking you'd probably want the finger-gaunts: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=43&osCsid=99pvddm3vn491hr90krv53n5g3 (http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=43&osCsid=99pvddm3vn491hr90krv53n5g3)
You could go with the mitten gauntlets, but they'll be more restrictive for handling a sword. And the demi-gaunts won't do much to protect the fingers, though they may not need to since they cover most of the hand when closed. The Wisby gauntlets (I'm tempted to get these for use in class with the steel blunts) is probably a little outside of the style and period you're going for. Wisby was mid 14th C, but the Sallet I believe you ended up with is later in the 15th.
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We can do the mittens either in the more traditional manner, with the finger tips sewn to a leather tab riveted to the final plate of the assembley of with a second strap at the fingertips which the fingers can be disengaged from if desired.
The finger bucklers cover the fingers fully and as they're on sale as well would be an option with the demi gauntlets that would work.
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How does the sizing normally work? Do you work from a measurement of the circumference around the knuckle-portion of the hand, and maybe an overall hand length? Or something similar? I'm curious, because you're getting me tempted now. :)
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I'm very very tempted. :) It's just a matter of which ones would go best with the pieces I currently have.
Would my dishpan hands yellow gloves be appropriate liners or would the color be too inaccurate?
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If you want them for functionality, the Mercenary Tailor gauntlets are very nice. But I don't think the current models really match your harness, Pamela. Most of them have elements of later period armours, though the Wisby gauntlets are definately 14th century.
The finger bucklers might work with demi-gauntets, though. There are a number of those seen in Paulus Kal (and I think in Talhoffer as well). I'm at a Panera Bread at the moment, and they block weapons related sites, so I can't see the Merc. Tailor site at the moment to check to see how close they'd be. I've thought about getting a pair for myself, though, since they seem like an easy way to get good finger protection.
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I'm at a Panera Bread at the moment, and they block weapons related sites, so I can't see the Merc. Tailor site at the moment to check to see how close they'd be.
Augh, that's outrageous. I hate that sort of "politically correct" junk. Next thing you know, they'll be blocking one political party's web content and not another. :)
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Bill, I was so glad that Jason picked up "In the Service of The Duke" at CW '07 from Christian, contained in its lavish illustrations are several examples of finger bucklers ( as well as bevors being used with chaple de fers ). Previously I had been limited to one Italian pair shown in a sculptural effigy as reference. That book is just a wealth of knowlege as far as armour of that period goes!
I told Pam via email earlier that if theres a pair of gloves that you have that you like working with we can install those rather than our stock welding glove in everything but the Wisbys. Theres no extra charge for it.
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Thank you for your help so far Gentlemen. I appreciate any help or advice you send my way. :)
I'm trying to decide between the finger guantlets, simply for the hand protection (Das Bill can testify that I haven't found hand protection that I'm happy with yet, so this is a perpetual quest) or the demi-guantlets with the finger bucklers as a part of my kit that I'm trying to put together.
Would my garish yellow leather gloves be appropriate for either choice? Or should I quick get a new pair of gloves? (I'm talking historical accuracy, not aesthetics. ;) )
How appropriate would the demi-gauntlets be with the armour pieces I have thus far?
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Pam I fogot to mention regarding demi's, they can be converted at a later date into finger gauntlets if desired. I've done this 3-4 times for folks in the past.
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Thank you, Allan. That's good to know. :)
~Pamela
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Would my garish yellow leather gloves be appropriate for either choice? Or should I quick get a new pair of gloves? (I'm talking historical accuracy, not aesthetics. ;) )
Aside from the fact that I will still tease you about your dish-pan hands, I think yellow would be perfectly fine.
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Would my garish yellow leather gloves be appropriate for either choice? Or should I quick get a new pair of gloves? (I'm talking historical accuracy, not aesthetics. ;) )
I don't remember if I've seen the yellow gloves. Are they a bright neon sort of yellow or a more natural yellow? I think the latter is fine, historically. During the medieval and renaissance periods, there was a wide range of available colors for dying leather and fabrics, and not all of the bright colors were restricted to the "expensive and difficult" upper-classes. Your yellow seems to be easier and more common than my blue, as blue was definitely difficult and expensive. Since leather is naturally in the yellow-tan-brown sort of color range anyway, yellow is probably not difficult to achieve with historical dyes.
I found this to be an interesting article:
http://www.renaissancedancewear.com/fabric_colors_in_the_renaissance.html (http://www.renaissancedancewear.com/fabric_colors_in_the_renaissance.html)
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Bill, I was so glad that Jason picked up "In the Service of The Duke" at CW '07 from Christian, contained in its lavish illustrations are several examples of finger bucklers ( as well as bevors being used with chaple de fers ). Previously I had been limited to one Italian pair shown in a sculptural effigy as reference. That book is just a wealth of knowlege as far as armour of that period goes!
Agreed! The treatise really has an incredible amount of details for arms, armour and clothing. And on the subject of finger bucklers, you may want to take a look at the 1459 edition of Talhoffer. For example:
(http://img.kb.dk/ha/manus/th290/kamp0177.jpg)
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How appropriate would the demi-gauntlets be with the armour pieces I have thus far?
Hard to say. As Christian brought up earlier in the thread, there is some debate as to whether demi-gauntlets actually existed in the 15th century, or do we just have surviving gauntlets which are missing the fingers (there seems to be more evidence for the latter, as I've recently started learning... we have "demi-gauntlets" that show evidence of where the fingers would have been attached). And the illustrations showing finger bucklers always show them over fingered gauntlets, not bare fingers.
I'm looking at the Mercenary's Tailor site right now. The finger gauntlets and demi-gauntlets both have cuffs that are much more reminiscent of Renaissance armours (very late 15th and into the 16th century), at least to my eye, which would be a little late for your harness. Your harness is more early-to-mid 15th century.
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Bill there is sculptural/figural depictions of demi's, granted they're one piece of steel based on appearences from the late 14th century of demi thype gauntlets. The depictions i've seen are on common soldiers rather the upper class.
As far as the fingered gauntlets go you are correct, they are late 15th/ 16th century in character. I can cross over the more Milanese cuff of the maille fingered gauntlet to these or the mittens for an earlier mid cetury look, i've done this conversion severl times in the past.
Stop by the NYHFA forum and check out the thread on Hema man.
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Bill there is sculptural/figural depictions of demi's, granted they're one piece of steel based on appearences from the late 14th century of demi thype gauntlets. The depictions i've seen are on common soldiers rather the upper class.
Oh, I meant in the 15th century.
I can cross over the more Milanese cuff of the maille fingered gauntlet to these or the mittens for an earlier mid cetury look, i've done this conversion severl times in the past.
Pamela, that sounds like a good possibility!
Stop by the NYHFA forum and check out the thread on Hema man.
Oh, I'm sadly too aware of the HEMA man/boy BS. I just ignore it at this point.
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Oh, I'm sadly too aware of the HEMA man/boy BS. I just ignore it at this point.
Fingured out who it is yet? I have an idea.
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For now I'm going to go with the fingered gauntlets simply for hand protection, not to go with my harness. They'll only need to match my sweatpants and fencing mask. :)
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Fingured out who it is yet? I have an idea.
Nope. I haven't kept up, and to be honest, I just don't care.
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For now I'm going to go with the fingered gauntlets simply for hand protection, not to go with my harness. They'll only need to match my sweatpants and fencing mask. :)
Cool. Did you go with the standard cuffs?
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Cool. Did you go with the standard cuffs?
Yeah, since I'm not going for a period look, I kept it standard, except I chose the steel finish rather than the brass rivets.
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Oh, and I also copied you and David and order the finger shields so that I can wear them as added protection with my Revival Martial Arts padded gloves.
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I just informed Sir Brian that I just happened to pick up a set of SS demi's here at
the faire in Charlotte. The armourer is from Idaho and had a full set, (fingered) for
600. that I judt didn't care for. The demi's, on the other hand, (no pun intended),
have a 5-lame articulation and feel feather-lite. I am going to put them with my
Maltese harness from Andre at Icefalcon and call it done. As far as the SCA, these
would have been excellent!!!!
BTW, Go get 'em, Lady Pamela! :D
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Pam, I just saw this, I sized the finger shields for your fingered gauntlets so if we need to adjust the palm strap size to fit your sparing gloves just let me know and we'll be happy to take care of it for you ( there is of course no charge ).
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Wow, Allan, thanks!
I plan to use the finger shields over my padded gloves and I haven't tried them on with that in mind yet. How tight/loose should they be?
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They should stay put hand relaxed and feel some tensing of the strap when a fist is formed ( the knuckles will sink into the stuffed leather pad on the shield so theres no discomfort as the spance between first and second knuckle comes a little closer to the underside of the shield.
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Allan,
Pamela brought her new gauntlets to class last night. Very nice work!
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Very nice indeed. I couldn't try them on due to the sizing, but they seemed very nicely articulated, and more protective than the gaunts I occasionally use in class.
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Very nice indeed. I couldn't try them on due to the sizing,
i bet she did that on purpose too!! ;)
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Ed was the smart one. Those that actually forced them on had a hard time removing them. :)
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Well, it wasn't just smarts... I don't think I could have gotten them on. Square peg in a round hole, etc. :)
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here u go. lets hope u can see the facebook pics:
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v378/88/85/35908283/n35908283_32467271_5058.jpg
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v378/88/85/35908283/n35908283_32467270_4779.jpg
if not, sword chick go here: http://www.blackdiamondmetalarts.com/id83.html and here http://www.blackdiamondmetalarts.com/id71.html
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hLkgswP1Xv0/R6coGANTkOI/AAAAAAAAAfw/UmKZYk2f5FE/s400/sca.jpg) ehhe giggles
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Now that's the kind of Armor I want to get for my Love! ;D
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Sorry, guys. Ain't happening. :P
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Awww, darn. :)
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http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=95281 some awsome pics here from a new movie
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http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=95281 some awsome pics here from a new movie
The form of the armour is really nice... its a shame they're using a boat anchor for the sword. :)
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I thought perhaps some of you would like to see how far my kit has progressed. Oh, and I'm the one in yellow. :)
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It's coming along very well! I think it's awesome that you managed to get the arming cotte and gaunts to both have your yellow color.
What are you thinking about adding next? Mail fauld perhaps?
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Yeah, I hadn't realized how great the arming cotte and gauntlets looked together until I saw the photos this morning. I'm knock dead gorgeous, even if I do say so myself. Pun intended as well. :D
I do think a mail fauld would be a great next addition.
It sure is humbling though. Last night was the first night I had everything on and my body just couldn't figure out how to move. I thought I knew all those techniques, but what I thought I knew certainly wasn't what was showing up in practice. :-[
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Yeah, until you get used to how it messes with your weight distribution, it does tend to surprise you the first couple times you put it all on and try to do anything. The changes in center of mass, and the extra weight on your extremities kinda throw you off.
It was humbling for me last night as well. The voiders resist me lifting my arms, and combined with the weight, I was feeling unusually weak when we were doing all the high-guard stuff. As in, I think I need to lift weights regularly to compensate for that. Yikes.
But really, I think your kit is looking great, and the yellow is very striking. Knock em dead! :)
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Yep, as I always tell people, you can't fully appreciate how harnisfechten works until you've actually worn harness. Though I will say that having everything custom fit to you does make a difference. I know I had a lot of trouble doing things smoothly until I had a proper arming cotte, and god knows what a difference it was when Peter Fuller did that work on my pauldrons. It was like night and day.
I'm talking to a guy now about making me some higher quality pauldrons, and if this works out right, I might be going for some new legs as well. We'll see...
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You all look great! …But I think Magneto might give you all a bit of trouble… ;)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/magneto1.jpg)