ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Courtyard => Topic started by: Thorsteinn on 2013-10-24, 19:26:47
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Do you apply the below to any of your training?
"No youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack under the fist of his adversary, and when he is thrown to the ground he must fight with all his might and not loose courage... Anyone who can do that, can engage in battle confidently. " -Roger of Hoveden
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Insurance frowns on that kind of thing. :)
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Do you apply the below to any of your training?
"No youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack under the fist of his adversary, and when he is thrown to the ground he must fight with all his might and not loose courage... Anyone who can do that, can engage in battle confidently. " -Roger of Hoveden
sounds like SERE school! :)
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I was taught that way ;D
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Ive forced myself to believe I could fight that way.
Therefor I believe I can only fight that way.
I hate fighting, Never been in a fight.
But I always want to get in a fight so I can show I can be ferocious in battle.
I don't want to fight for I am scared of what I would do to someone if they starting throwing punches at me.
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Ive forced myself to believe I could fight that way.
Therefor I believe I can only fight that way.
I hate fighting, Never been in a fight.
But I always want to get in a fight so I can show I can be ferocious in battle.
I don't want to fight for I am scared of what I would do to someone if they starting throwing punches at me.
I've been in my share of fights and Dresden has the right of it:
"I am not a skilled martial artist. But I know a little, picked up in training with Murphy and some of the other SI cops over the years at Dough Joe’s Hurricane Gym. Real fighting is only slightly about form and technique. Mostly it’s about timing, and about being willing to hurt somebody. If you know more or less when to close to distance and throw the punch, you’re most of the way there. But having the right mind-set is even more important. All the technique in the world isn’t going to help you if you come to the fight without the will to wreak havoc on the other guy." -Harry Dresden
Ancient Knightly Wisdom (True Quote, no matter the source) (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,980.0.html)
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wow that's, something I feel like I needed to hear.
Thank you Thorsteinn.
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I have learned over the years that an unwillingness to get hurt is more detrimental to the outcome of a fight than the skill of one or the other. It isn't easy, that first time but once you've been hit and you don't shy away or run from it, learning how to fight becomes easier. You may not always win, but it won't be the big unknown beast it once was.
I did some boxing as a kid; I'm pretty good with my hands but didn't develop a true aptitude for the sport because I didn't like getting hit and I didn't like pounding away on anyone- unless I'm angry. But that's different and has no place in sports; in any case, I learned that it wasn't that big a deal (still don't like to get hit tho lol) and later on, I learned that if need be, I can rise to the occasion.
Roger of Hoveden's remark is spot on- albeit for an earlier time when one's skill or lack thereof could be mean the difference between being alive and being killed. Still, if you're interested in MMA or any of the more visceral martial arts you won't really know what you're capable of until you've heard your teeth click inadvertently from a powerful blow to the face or body and how you react.
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well ive wrestled with my brother sicne we were kids.
but there was this time i wrestled this big kid, who was really muscular and i wasnt, I was doing ok until the second round we went he got me in a headlock and I heard my jaw begin to crack, and everything began to go purple.
then I realized he wouldnt stop until I was knocked out, so I gave in.
I also think I lost that day because I was fighting for no Cause what so ever.
But I don't really look at that as a serious fight. just something meant to open my eyes a little.
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I’ve done a bit of fighting in my day. Brawling with siblings and friends is akin to mixing it up with your comrade in arms – i.e. shipmates, barracks roommate, etc. You might be trying to bust their nose or blacken their eyes but for the most part you really don’t have the intention to inflict permanent damage because subconsciously you know the person you are fighting and up until that point of violent conflict were at the very least neutral to each other or on the same side which essentially inhibits the full effectiveness of you tenaciously fighting them. The same condition applies when training (regardless of how intense the training is) in any martial art whether with or without weapons. – Control to a certain measure is applied often times in various degrees within each combatant’s psyche in addition to outside influences – authorities showing up to end the conflict, referees to limit the engagement (tournaments, boxing/MMA matches, etc).
However in an actual fight (bar fight, street fight, and combat?) there is the fear factor that either overrides those ‘safety’ governors or induces a flight reaction. It is the element of the unknown concerning your adversary’s intentions, skills and tenacity that invokes the fear within, as it should for all you know you are about to engage in battle with your killer. – A sobering thought that demands you give it careful consideration of what extent you will carry the fight. The example you provided Nate is a good start. You stated that it opened your eyes. How so? A headlock is a basic ‘unskilled’ attempt to control and subdue an opponent which relies upon exerting leverage upon the head using superior strength. – If it opened your eyes then you should realize that you need to learn how to quickly and easily breakout of these kind of basic holds or convince your opponent it is in their best interest to immediately release you.
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That was well said, Sir Brian.
In an actual unsanctioned fight (street, barroom brawl, what have you) you must realize that whatever rules you may adhere to, your opponent likely will not.
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Yes well put sir brian.
It opened my eyes because I realized how easily I could be subdued. But the person was almost twice my size, and he was at the time a little slow. He didnt really fight fairly though considering all he liked to do was show people he was stronger. Just a bully in the end
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He didnt really fight fairly though considering all he liked to do was show people he was stronger. Just a bully in the end
In most real life unsanctioned fights, I believe this would often (but not always) be the case with whoever starts the conflict.
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Very 'Ender Wiggins' solution here.
Notice how he starts fighting in their mind first? This isn't his first fight, it won't be his last, and he lets them know that.
Jack Reacher Bar Fight Scene (Complete) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu1MtT_S3bc#ws)
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Nice, I haven't seen Jack Reacher. I think I'll netflix it at some point.
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Very 'Ender Wiggins' solution here.
Notice how he starts fighting in their mind first? This isn't his first fight, it won't be his last, and he lets them know that.
Jack Reacher Bar Fight Scene (Complete) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu1MtT_S3bc#ws)
I read Enders game, its now one of my favorite books, because he really thinks like I do. Or similar. It was a great read, I hope the movie is good. I havent seen jack reacher yet.
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The trick to actual fighting, I've seen, is really about having the guts to take and to dish out damage, and (especially with multiple opponents) to make a calculated explosion of violence.
Simple steps
1. Decide how to hit opponent.
2. Follow through. If the hit landed, proceed to step 3. If not, defend counters and go back to step 1.
3. Hit opponent again. If opponent still has the capacity to harm you, repeat. If not, the fight is over.
(now make all of this take place in a matter of seconds, and you get the gist of it)
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Yes well put sir brian.
It opened my eyes because I realized how easily I could be subdued. But the person was almost twice my size, and he was at the time a little slow. He didnt really fight fairly though considering all he liked to do was show people he was stronger. Just a bully in the end
Size is rarely relevant, unless there is a vast disparity such as 100 pound woman fighting a 250 pound man and even then the size variance is irrelevant if the woman is highly skilled and the man is unskilled. Mass can be manipulated with leverage. Since you are dealing with a bully he is complacent and overconfident in his greater size. The next time he wants to use you as a prop to reaffirm his 'supremacy' in your social circle - break something on him. You will have to pay the consequences but you will establish yourself as someone definitely not to mess with.
You and your brother can practice on each other if you do not know how to escape from the basic headlock, be careful and practice slowly to perfect your technique.
Assuming the bully has your head in the classic headlock with you bent over at the waist and your head approximately around his waist. You can break his nose by reaching up to his face and planting your palm on his cheek bone then clasp his nose and make a fist. It will cause excruciating pain and if your hands are strong enough will break his nose. Or you can place the pinky finger edge of your hand under the tip of his nose and press upwards. His head will go back and you tell him to let go of your head and you'll let go. When he releases your head you grab the back of his knee and throw him onto his back. While he is stunned stomp on his groin. However the fastest and most damaging counter to a headlock is when he has your body bent over with your head at his hip you adjust your stance by taking a step slightly forward then do the nut cracker on him. That is three hard punches with both fists, one from the front and one from the back with his gonads being smashed between them. He will let go and if he doesn't collapse you can then grab the nearest leg and lift and push him down.
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While mass, strength, size, and leverage is actually very important in a fight (we have a 6' 6" new fighter who hits like a freight train), especially if no great disparity in skill exists, skill can still be paramount.
I once told a student who didn't believe this that I was going to close my eyes, place my hand on her shoulder, and at the word 'go' I would submit her without ever opening my eye's. While I'm stronger, and slightly taller, she was heavier & a little faster. Yet I still succeeded even though she saw everything I did.
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TRUE fighting is about taking in ALL aspects of your opponent's skills and capabilities. What you cannot gauge is their willingness to do anything (beyond rules, morals, and laws). I play it safe and avoid it. But when you can't avoid it, CONFRONT THE THREAT with absolute focus & resolution on ridding yourself of the threat. Better yourself by knowing what YOU would do makes it easier to do in a fight than worrying about what your opponent will. Size up your opponent based upon what you KNOW not think. Thinking is for when you have time to do it.
Knowing is what makes you prepared for it. KNOW what you will do before hand and reaction will guide you when faced with it (by recognition). Train yourself to be better and do it repetitiously. Remember, repetition instills reaction. That makes you the threat. Willingness to commit to your own actions without second guessing yourself instills confidence.
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TRUE fighting as about taking in ALL aspects of your opponent(s) skills and capabilities. What you cannot gauge is their willingness to DO anything (beyond rules, morals, and laws). I play it safe and avoid it. But when you can't avoid it, CONFRONT THE THREAT with absolute focus resolution on ridding yourself of the threat. Better yourself by knowing what YOU would do makes it easier to do in a fight than worrying about what your opponent will. Size up your opponent based upon what you KNOW not think. Thinking is for when you have time to do it.
Knowing is what makes you prepared for it. KNOW what you will do before hand and reaction will guide you when faced with it (by recognition). Train yourself to be better and do it repetitiously. Remember, repetition instills reaction. That makes you the threat. Willingness to commit to your own actions without second guessing yourself instills confidence.
Bolding mine, reminds me of the saying "You don't rise to your expectations, you fall to the level of your training".
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I haven't had to be in a fight since Middle School? The advantages of being 6'5...I didn't feel confident enough in a fight until College when I did competitive Judo...from that point on I have feared no man in a fight...training and size make me very hard to beat...It also helps to spar twice a day every day for a couple of years...you are not afraid of getting hit or thrown or tasting your own blood..
Fear is the biggest thing to overcome in fighting...
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Fear is the biggest thing to overcome in fighting...
I think that's probably the one thing that is hardest to combat; the inner fear that occurs just before a fight. It doesn't make you a scaredy-cat or wimp; just about everyone knows this feeling and has had it at some point in their lives; don't be afraid to lose, don't be afraid to fight - just do it. It is way easier than it sounds, until you throw your first punch (and/or take your first punch).
I like this, Dane-
Willingness to commit to your own actions without second guessing yourself instills confidence.
- it is well said.
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Within re-enactment circles here in the U.K. as soon as a youngster (male or female) shows an interest in combat they are usually given the chance to start with the basics under the supervision of an experienced combatant.
There are a few umbrella groups that set standards and guidelines for re-enactment combat all based loosely around a mixture of W.M.A. techniques, show fighting techniques and broader re-enactment standards.
These training sessions usually take place in the form of squire training exercises, and quite often in front of the M.O.P.s as a part of our event/show.
The first and most important things they learn are; acceptable target areas, correct attack techniques, pulling blows, and blocking/defense.
Of course it is of paramount importance that they learn how to "play" safely, but we all know that in such activities as we undertake, accidents happen.
When accidents happen ( as long as they are not too serious ) there are two main results;
1, The new combatant learns a valuable lesson by the mistake,
2, we all get to have a laugh about it and get chance to say " well you have at last bled/bruised for your hobby".
Their experience then goes into the oral history of the group and takes on an almost legendary status :D
G.
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I will be putting this to the test this weekend. Teaching youth will be interesting, local high school group/club. in the past the statement held true, they could not fight tenaciously but they can flail like loons and try to hit your hands repeatedly. an other problem with youth is over confidence or lack of confidence, one or the other always seems to be their down fall. perhaps this applies to tenacious fighting in some way, the under confident ones seem to retreat so they fit that, but the over confident, although they get hurt and loose every engagement, attempt to fight with some tenacity I suppose.
anyway will have results when the weekend is over.
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No matter how much you train, it can only give you technique. Every man you fight is different. A new challenge and are unpredictable. Keep a calm head the whole time. Best advice is to be prepared for anything and have fast reflexes. Don't exert all your energy to defeat them. Most of all stand up for yourself. The younge learn through experience, are not as experienced as elders who are experienced. Thats why they must mostly train their mind. As Papa Wallace said to William Wallace, "Oh, I know you can fight. But it's our wits that make us men. Want to know whats ridiculous. If someone in school decides to beat your guts out and you defend thy self you are equally as guilty in the eyes of the school board. Thus why bullies can get away with anything. Sometimes you have to prove you will not tolerate them. But as I usually say "raise the shield, not the sword"
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I haven't had to be in a fight since Middle School? The advantages of being 6'5...I didn't feel confident enough in a fight until College when I did competitive Judo...from that point on I have feared no man in a fight...training and size make me very hard to beat...It also helps to spar twice a day every day for a couple of years...you are not afraid of getting hit or thrown or tasting your own blood..
Fear is the biggest thing to overcome in fighting...
Beg to differ. When it comes to fighting, STUPIDITY is the hardest thing to overcome. It is how you avoid it that makes people fumble over your inability to decide actions to take.
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No matter how much you train, it can only give you technique. Every man you fight is different. A new challenge and are unpredictable. Keep a calm head the whole time. Best advice is to be prepared for anything and have fast reflexes. Don't exert all your energy to defeat them. Most of all stand up for yourself. The younge learn through experience, are not as experienced as elders who are experienced. Thats why they must mostly train their mind. As Papa Wallace said to William Wallace, "Oh, I know you can fight. But it's our wits that make us men. Want to know whats ridiculous. If someone in school decides to beat your guts out and you defend thy self you are equally as guilty in the eyes of the school board. Thus why bullies can get away with anything. Sometimes you have to prove you will not tolerate them. But as I usually say "raise the shield, not the sword"
Protect yourself first no matter what Aiden. Grown ups have just as much stupidity in their decision making as to who & what course is right as kids do. Inexperience does not make one less able to think comparative to those with experience thinking they know what is the right course of action. Use your common sense especially when others lack it. Do what is right by you. Listen to yourself but take in what others say in the process. You learn by other's logic as much as by their stupidity.
Good appproach: "Raise your shield ... (for defense) but then strike with it (to attack)." (If they look for you to draw your sword, they will be unfocused on the real threat). Fight smart. :)
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When your getting mugged!, he has a knife in the alyway
you Pick The Metal Trash Can, Use the lid as a Shield- and the trash can itself as a Hammer
He has a pocket knife.
You have a giant hammer and a shield.
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No matter how much you train, it can only give you technique. Every man you fight is different. A new challenge and are unpredictable. Keep a calm head the whole time. Best advice is to be prepared for anything and have fast reflexes. Don't exert all your energy to defeat them. Most of all stand up for yourself. The younge learn through experience, are not as experienced as elders who are experienced. Thats why they must mostly train their mind. As Papa Wallace said to William Wallace, "Oh, I know you can fight. But it's our wits that make us men. Want to know whats ridiculous. If someone in school decides to beat your guts out and you defend thy self you are equally as guilty in the eyes of the school board. Thus why bullies can get away with anything. Sometimes you have to prove you will not tolerate them. But as I usually say "raise the shield, not the sword"
Protect yourself first no matter what Aiden. Grown ups have just as much stupidity in their decision making as to who & what course is right as kids do. Inexperience does not make one less able to think comparative to those with experience thinking they know what is the right course of action. Use your common sense especially when others lack it. Do what is right by you. Listen to yourself but take in what others say in the process. You learn by other's logic as much as by their stupidity.
Good appproach: "Raise your shield ... (for defense) but then strike with it (to attack)." (If they look for you to draw your sword, they will be unfocused on the real threat). Fight smart. :)
Thank you for liking my reference, I have always liked using it. Thus why it is under my signature thingy. "I raise not the sword but the shield, for sometimes the greatest offence is the best defense"-Aiden. Well ya, by experience i meant in skill as a fighter and know your stuff and to fight smart. Not go in as a brute and just assume you are the greastest fighter. So ya basicaly I meant what you said. I just have a poor choice of words. Forgive me.
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well after instruction and what not, the "youth" was allowed to free spar.
not being aggressive/trying hard/tenacious injury list:
1) lots of bruises
2) hurt fingers
3) hurt head
4) other injury from meeting the ground
try hard and tenacious fighters injury list:
1) bruises
2) twisted wrists and ankles
3) head injury
4) and one case of a sword point going about a 1cm in to some ones hand
all in all not to bad it I do say so myself. compared to other years where we have had worse injuries. ultimately the tenacious fighters won every bout but one or two of them. also all were able to walk away with a smile on their face. most injuries to the youth fighting hard were self inflicted or were caused by someone putting forth similar effort. etc....
that was the weekend ;D
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well after instruction and what not, the "youth" was allowed to free spar.
not being aggressive/trying hard/tenacious injury list:
1) lots of bruises
2) hurt fingers
3) hurt head
4) other injury from meeting the ground
try hard and tenacious fighters injury list:
1) bruises
2) twisted wrists and ankles
3) head injury
4) and one case of a sword point going about a 1cm in to some ones hand
all in all not to bad it I do say so myself. compared to other years where we have had worse injuries. ultimately the tenacious fighters won every bout but one or two of them. also all were able to walk away with a smile on their face. most injuries to the youth fighting hard were self inflicted or were caused by someone putting forth similar effort. etc....
that was the weekend ;D
oh Its just another day for SURBURBAN KNIGHTS ( I took that from a sorta funny video made by a guy called Nc critic, Dont know if it is copyrighted- Doubt it lol.)
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well after instruction and what not, the "youth" was allowed to free spar.
not being aggressive/trying hard/tenacious injury list:
1) lots of bruises
2) hurt fingers
3) hurt head
4) other injury from meeting the ground
try hard and tenacious fighters injury list:
1) bruises
2) twisted wrists and ankles
3) head injury
4) and one case of a sword point going about a 1cm in to some ones hand
all in all not to bad it I do say so myself. compared to other years where we have had worse injuries. ultimately the tenacious fighters won every bout but one or two of them. also all were able to walk away with a smile on their face. most injuries to the youth fighting hard were self inflicted or were caused by someone putting forth similar effort. etc....
that was the weekend ;D
oh Its just another day for SURBURBAN KNIGHTS ( I took that from a sorta funny video made by a guy called Nc critic, Dont know if it is copyrighted- Doubt it lol.)
yeah Doug aka NC is pretty funny.