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Main => The Great Hall => Topic started by: Don Jorge on 2013-11-06, 19:11:54
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Hello everyone, my name is Jorge Manuel Acosta (added some of ya'll on fb already!) and I am 28 years old. I went to college at Florida International University and got a double major in History and Asian Studies with a minor in Religious Studies. I came to North Carolina to get my Masters in Divinity in Christian Apologetics back in 2011. I just got married a month ago and am as happy as a clam.
As a history major and self-proclaimed nerd with an extraordinary imagination, I have always found dressing up and renaissance fairs to be great fun! About a year ago I plunged into LARP and started playing with a soft kit a wizard/priest archetype. I am about start a new LARP with some friends here in NC and decided to play a knight. In the research of armor and kits to create my character concept I found this forum. The concept of Modern Chivalry and Knighthood intrigues me. As a christian I feel that I aspire to be and work on a better me. Always being considerate to others and their needs.
Now a few questions. I have a friend who can get me a 50% discount off anything on larping.org and I was looking at these (http://www.larping.org/larp-shop/product-category/larp-armor-sets/) sets as starters for my LARP character. I understand it isn't SCA or even historically accurate but hey for a full set at under $350 that isn't bad. I have seen helmets that cost more alone! Now I will submit to the wisdom on the forums here and spend my money on things I like but also are recommended by those that know a LOT more about weapons and armor. So here are my scenarios/questions:
1. Buy cheap 18 gauge armor from LARPing.org
2. Buy SCA approved Battle Ready armor from wherever you guys suggest (maybe talk to my SCA Marshall first) little by little developing my kit slowly but surely full of items I want and but might be expensive.
3. Mix and match and get some cheaper armor for items that don't need to be heavy duty. Like get 18 gauge from Larping.org for greaves or bracers.
The obvious answer is #2. But before you tell me that take a few things into consideration and let me know what you think. Right now my priority is LARP. I have good friends there and am plugged into a LARP community. I am just figuring out what else to add to my hobbies (to the dismay of my wife I am sure!). I am only just finding out about SCA and Living History and re-enactments and Armored Combat Leagues and HEMA!
I have made contact and plan to attend my local HEMA group (www.triangleswordguild.com (http://www.triangleswordguild.com)) and am looking to buy a Feder ASAP. Already got some Lacrosse gloves and need to buy my Helmet ASAP. I have heard about SCA and am intrigued with the idea as it seems like something my wife can actually get into! She is wary of LARPing and doesn't like make believe but loves dressing up and going to Ren Faires. SCA might be a good alternative for her to partake in my geekiness. What is Living History even about? What options are out there? If I buy legit armor and swords I want to be able to USE them and fight and use all the HEMA training I am going to be picking up. Suggestions on different things to do would be appreciated!
Order of things I want to spend money on:
1. HEMA Helmet
2. Gambeson for HEMA and under my armor!
3. Armor of a Knight (era and persona is flexible...I am an anglophile but also learning german longsword and from portugese/spanish decent myself so those could be interesting)...to be used immediately for LARP...so either cheap 18 gauge full set or some essentials of good stuff to make me LOOK like a knight and then eventually build the kit...
4. Feder (thinking about rengenyei or ensifer or pavel moc)
5. Actual Sword for either SCA/Living History/ACL or whatever it is I decide to do besides LARP.
Wow this post is turning out to be a lot longer than I imagined. But hey now you guys know me and my goals a little better and maybe I can start making some headway and understanding what I need to be doing and in what order to start my career as a Knight :)
Thanks,
Jorge
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Welcome to Modern Chivalry, Jorge - take a look around, stay awhile...you'll find we're a great bunch of guys with similar, if not the same, interests- and always happy to help.
An aside on LARP armor...the link you provided has a lot of the stuff that I've seen popping up starting a year or two ago; it isn't cheap and it isn't going to stand up to snuff if you ever plan on taking it into the combat arena. While it was fun to upgrade and switch out this piece or that piece in my quest to become more historically plausible, I sort of wish I had someone like me, or the fine gents of this forum, to steer me away from the constant dross that's all over the place and point me in the right direction.
If you are interested in acquiring armor, do it right the first time and buy armor that's going to be protective and look good, rather than pretty bits that'll get bashed to pieces in your first foray. Even if you never go beyond LARPing, you'll at least have the best suit of armor out there (unless someone's done the same as you and went for real armor rather than decorative) and who knows, in your quest for knighthood, it is not unheard of for raw recruits to take a liking to the more martial side of knighthood (fencing, jousting, feasting, dancing, etc etc) on top of assembling a period-specific harness or kit. There are many on here who are much more versed in this sort of thing than I- I'm just giving the broad brush stroke, there's a lot to consider with regard to being a knight that would take up a lot more room than I feel like doing at this moment in this post.
One thing I didn't learn til later- the garments you were under your armor are just as important as the armor itself; it can either make it a pleasant, rewarding and gratifying experience, or it can be ghastly, uncomfortable and in some case, downright painful. Whichever route you choose, my only hope is that you enjoy it.
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Hail and welcome!
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Welcome!
Sir William has the right of it. The under garments matter A LOT when it comes to armor. However, what you wear under the armor may depend a lot on the kind of armor you want to go with.
There are some downsides to getting inexpensive 18ga armor, though it has the advantage of being very light. One of course is that you can't fight in it for SCA or HEMA. Another is that it's probably "one size fits most" or only will come in a few sizes. Plus there's a good chance that it's not going to be designed well in certain areas, whether that translates into how it fits, how it moves, or both. And nothing sucks more than wearing improperly fitted or shaped armor.
On the plus side, however, is that thin gauge metal is easy to bend and cut, so if something isn't right, you may be able to adjust things, or trim down a sharp corner.
But having said all of that, you're going to be investing money right from the start, so I would still recommend getting something that favors function over being cheap. Most of us end up with a box full of "junk armor" that never worked right, and we've replaced it twice over. For instance, I have a set of legs and gaunts I never use, but they were standard, cheap SCA gear.
The requirements will of course be very different for different groups. For LARP you only need to worry about appearance and comfort, but SCA has all sorts of requirements for safety, and for HEMA it's all about comfort and mobility, and how much protection your group (or yourself) demands. Living history is a whole different game.
For living history, they want everything to be as accurate as humanly possible. That means having the correct belt buckles, shoes, hinges and clasps, the right shaping and look to the armor pieces, not mixing components that were decades apart historically, and so on. This is a very high standard of authenticity, so most people don't start here. Accurately made armor can get very expensive, depending on the type (for instance, 15th century fluted Gothic plate is horrifically expensive if done correctly).
So I doubt you'll find a "works for everything" solution, at least not right away, unless you're willing to shell out the big bucks for high Gothic armor. :)
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Welcome to the forum, and congrats on your recent marriage! :)
I'm going to go the lazy route and pretty much say, "Ditto" to what Sirs William and Edward said. ;)
But I'll add on a bit to that. Probably the best thing to do is decide what you main goal is going to be. For instance, if you're just LARPing now but plan on getting into SCA combat, it would be a lot less expensive to spend a little more on good SCA-grade armor now than to buy a set of LARP gear now and have to re-buy everything later on for SCA (plus, with some decent gear to start out with, you'll probably be one of the flyest LARPer around ;) ). When it comes to this hobby, a lot of times "cheaper" can end up being more expensive in the long run.
Also, if you're going for a more historical kit, it would be best to pick a general time frame. Pick a century and try to stay within that century as much as possible. It will help you figure out what kind of arming garments would work best and be the most comfortable. A 13th century aketon doesn't work very will with 15th century full-plate. As was previously stated, under garments are very important. Then, once you get the basics, you can refine it further by "early", "mid", or "late" century, or even get as specific as a particular decade. It all depends how much you want to get into it.
But that's just one way to go about it. You'll find that everyone does things a little bit differently, so spend some time researching before jumping right into it and find out what works best for you. And, don't be afraid to ask questions here if you're unsure about something. This is a pretty easy-going forum with some really smart guys. We'll help you out wherever we can. :)
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I sent a PM a day or two ago regarding the armor. Let me know if you didn't get it.
If you are already engrossed into the LARP community... I'm going to suggest something that, to be perfectly honest, I love suggesting. Multiple kits!
Get your LARP armor, have fun with that, and when it's mostly complete (a kit is rarely ever *complete*), then, start expanding into a new one for SCA. You can get into some of the cheaper SCA armor, and still look pretty decent on the field, for around $1,000 or so (helmet to heels). LARP armor, I have no idea, though. One thing to remember is SCA armor can be used for LARPing; LARP armor can't, 99% of the time, be used for SCA.
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My problem with SCA armor is finding it and being secure that it will pass Marshall's inspection. Do you guys know where I can get a nice decent SCA set? Also are there any resources to see different kits by century...like a chart or table so I can see which look I want to start working towards?
Thanks a lot for the warm welcome and advice!
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I sent a PM a day or two ago regarding the armor. Let me know if you didn't get it.
If you are already engrossed into the LARP community... I'm going to suggest something that, to be perfectly honest, I love suggesting. Multiple kits!
Get your LARP armor, have fun with that, and when it's mostly complete (a kit is rarely ever *complete*), then, start expanding into a new one for SCA. You can get into some of the cheaper SCA armor, and still look pretty decent on the field, for around $1,000 or so (helmet to heels). LARP armor, I have no idea, though. One thing to remember is SCA armor can be used for LARPing; LARP armor can't, 99% of the time, be used for SCA.
Yes I read your PM, thanks for the input! At this point I have not bought anything except my HEMA Lacross gloves :)
And it seems I cannot buy my Gambeson until I pick out:
a) Time Period for my Kit
b) How historically accurate I want to be (arming points etc)
So...like I said...are there any resources showing side by side armor from different centuries in different countries? I am pretty sure my Kit should be English, German, Portuguese or Spanish....I also think I prefer Plate over Chain...James what armor type is it that you sport in your avatar? That looks a lot like my taste...I am sure it is expensive :P
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I'll let Sir James regale you with the tale on how he got all of that harness together; now, once you've picked out what period you want to shoot for and how historically accurate you want to get, we can then suggest some armorers you might want to get acquainted with.
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So...like I said...are there any resources showing side by side armor from different centuries in different countries?
Well, there's this: http://www.thortrains.com/uniforms/fullarmor1.jpg (http://www.thortrains.com/uniforms/fullarmor1.jpg) It's pretty basic, but it might give you some ideas as to what time-frame you want to shoot for. You sound like you're a Late Middle Ages fellow. That's when you started seeing plate gain favor over maille. I mentioned in another thread that I'm a big fan of this book (http://www.amazon.com/Arms-Armor-Medieval-Knight-Illustrated/dp/0517103192/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383775840&sr=8-1&keywords=arms+and+armour+of+the+medieval+knight) when it comes to armor. The chapters are broken down by century, and there are a lot of really nice photos of period armor and illustrations. Might be worth checking out.
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Welcome Belemrys, and good speed to you.
G.
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So...like I said...are there any resources showing side by side armor from different centuries in different countries?
Well, there's this: http://www.thortrains.com/uniforms/fullarmor1.jpg (http://www.thortrains.com/uniforms/fullarmor1.jpg) It's pretty basic, but it might give you some ideas as to what time-frame you want to shoot for. You sound like you're a Late Middle Ages fellow. That's when you started seeing plate gain favor over maille. I mentioned in another thread that I'm a big fan of this book (http://www.amazon.com/Arms-Armor-Medieval-Knight-Illustrated/dp/0517103192/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383775840&sr=8-1&keywords=arms+and+armour+of+the+medieval+knight) when it comes to armor. The chapters are broken down by century, and there are a lot of really nice photos of period armor and illustrations. Might be worth checking out.
Awesome! Exactly the type of resources I am looking for...I will check and see if I can find that book in my local library (doubt it).
Thanks,
Jorge
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Yep, as was said, arming garments are critical to having armor - particularly plate - not be a horrendous experience. And the time period you're shooting for, whether it's "around 1410-1420" or "about 1450 give or take 25 years" is an important first step before picking out what you want.
I'll let Sir James regale you with the tale on how he got all of that harness together; now, once you've picked out what period you want to shoot for and how historically accurate you want to get, we can then suggest some armorers you might want to get acquainted with.
Ha! Well, the helmet (not pictured) is an MRL armet for now. The mail standard/collar, I made. The cuirass, arms, gauntlets, and upper legs are by Allan of Mercenary's Tailor - no longer in business, but he sells pieces here and there - and if you're lucky enough to get some, it's some of the best functional armor you can get for the price. The greaves are from the Ukraine, by HammerBreaker. The sabatons are by Mad Matt up in Canada (Mad Matt's armory). The mail is by IceFalcon and I had to expand the fauld (still working on voiders, so, not pictured). The shoes are Viking Leather 14th century w/ties, the pants are GDFB 15th century wool pants, Revival Clothing linen shirt, with a Revival Clothing arming coat. No gambeson or padding. Sword belt is by Inner Bailey Leatherworks, sword is an Albion Mercenary. I think that covers it, aside from that I wear modern boxers and socks under it all. :)
It's not based on a specific harness, and is English/Italian in style. It is a "composite" of around 1525, meaning made up of different parts of armor from similar styles and decades, but not based on a harness that was specifically produced as a single armor.
It's extremely rare for an armorer to work in the huge span of all medieval armor, so if you have any specific time frame, I'd be happy to point you towards armorers who make what you'd be looking for.
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From what I have been looking at I am torn between 1515 Maximilian type armor (he is my favorite Hapsberg Monarch)...or something like Sir Brian has as far as transitional armor...I think that might be cheaper than the Maximilian type armor...
http://www.illusionarmoring.com/16thsuit.html (http://www.illusionarmoring.com/16thsuit.html)
Looks like it would be about 1500 plus shipping plus strapping and a random 350 dollar charge?
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Illusion is known for long wait times. And then being late too. If you have around 18 months or so to wait, it might be worth a try. They're quoting a year for orders, I recall seeing orders that were a year past the original delivery date and still unfinished (though a few years back).
Maximillian armor is heavily fluted. Open up a home equity line of credit or something. Roughly $15,000 for a cheap one out of mild steel. If you want heat treated steel, I'd say you're talking $20,000+ range. It's one of the styles I'd love to have, few people make, and I'll never have unless I hit the lotto or end up having kids who hit the lotto... :)
Transitional armor is MUCH more reasonable in price. It is also easier to get it fitting properly, whereas plate has very little forgiveness in fitment. I've spent many hours getting mine tweaked to a decent fitment. As far as transitional, I have a GDFB bascinet, coat of plates (aluminum), and (in stainless) steel spaulders, steel knee and elbow cops, splint arms and splint legs. I think it was around $1,000 and since it's almost all stainless (except the helm and coat of plates), it won't rust. However, I got the coat of plates used for a steal price of $100 or so. I don't have gauntlets for it, but you could probably get a similar suit for about $1,000 roughly. If you want to check out Mad Matt's site (he made the spaulders/splint arms/splint legs, and my sabatons in my avatar pic), here's his site:
http://www.madmattsarmory.com/ (http://www.madmattsarmory.com/)
Sir Brian should be able to refer you to sources for his armor. I believe it is also Mercenary's Tailor, but I'm not 100% sure.
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You could always get armour of the Maximilian style without the fluting.
(http://sl-armours.com/images/patterns/arms_14.jpg)
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Just keep in mind that generally speaking, as you get later in the period, the armor historically was made with better armoring technology, which equates to more complex shaping and more articulated pieces, which means it'll cost more to you.
A lot of folks will start with mid-late 14th century plate armor because it's cheaper to reproduce, and is during the height of heraldic pageantry and before plate armor started evolving into jousting armor.
By the 16th century, a lot of the armor was become more specialized to the joust, but not all. Some of the jousting specific features that were added included haute guards (those wings that stick up from the pauldrons), affixed helms (little or no neck mobility, frog-face helms, etc), lance rests, interchangeable plates that bolt on to the breastplate, asymmetrical pauldrons, and so on.
One of the nice things about 15th century Gothic armor is that there is plenty of artwork showing it being used on foot as well as on horseback, including judicial combat.
As an aside, generally speaking you would not use a gambeson or aketon under plate armor. The armor itself is meant to absorb most of the impact, so the arming doublet/coat tended to be a bit thinner than a gambeson would be. It might have some light padding, but ideally the plates needed to be close-fitting to distribute the impact.
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Hail and welcome friend! You will fit in among us I guarantee! And a nice place to get some custom fitting armor for SCA is armstreet.com who have a good selection of armor and medieval clothing.
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You could always get armour of the Maximilian style without the fluting.
(http://sl-armours.com/images/patterns/arms_14.jpg)
Armor of Wladislas :)
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Armor of Wladislas :)
Ah cheers mate. Anyways, here's a pic of a very similar set of armour...in colour! Also like what everybody already said, pick a period you like and go for the well-fitted arming clothes first. How much time and money are you willing to spend on a kit? Knowing those answers will be extremely helpful.
If any of the info I say is wrong, please feel free to correct me. I'm always keen on learning.
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Illusion is known for long wait times. And then being late too. If you have around 18 months or so to wait, it might be worth a try. They're quoting a year for orders, I recall seeing orders that were a year past the original delivery date and still unfinished (though a few years back).
Maximillian armor is heavily fluted. Open up a home equity line of credit or something. Roughly $15,000 for a cheap one out of mild steel. If you want heat treated steel, I'd say you're talking $20,000+ range. It's one of the styles I'd love to have, few people make, and I'll never have unless I hit the lotto or end up having kids who hit the lotto... :)
Transitional armor is MUCH more reasonable in price. It is also easier to get it fitting properly, whereas plate has very little forgiveness in fitment. I've spent many hours getting mine tweaked to a decent fitment. As far as transitional, I have a GDFB bascinet, coat of plates (aluminum), and (in stainless) steel spaulders, steel knee and elbow cops, splint arms and splint legs. I think it was around $1,000 and since it's almost all stainless (except the helm and coat of plates), it won't rust. However, I got the coat of plates used for a steal price of $100 or so. I don't have gauntlets for it, but you could probably get a similar suit for about $1,000 roughly. If you want to check out Mad Matt's site (he made the spaulders/splint arms/splint legs, and my sabatons in my avatar pic), here's his site:
http://www.madmattsarmory.com/ (http://www.madmattsarmory.com/)
Sir Brian should be able to refer you to sources for his armor. I believe it is also Mercenary's Tailor, but I'm not 100% sure.
Okay, lets talk transitional period and metals then...for combat what type of metals should I be looking for at each piece? 16 gauge? 14 gauge? Mild Steel (does that just mean cold rolled?), Blue Steel, Satin Polish, Mirror Polish, Stainless Steel (as strong as steel but rust resistant or is it weaker and not combat armor material?)? What type of metal should my chain mail be? What types of coat of plates are there and what should I be looking at? I will definitely be wearing a surcoat over my armor so maybe the coat of plates doesn't have to be that elaborate? What can I skimp on and what should I pay the big bucks for?
Gah so many questions :)
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For the most part, if you're going to fight in the armor, you're probably looking at 16ga thickness. Most SCA kingdoms requires 16ga armor, and 14ga for the helm, if I recall.
For HEMA use, generally 16ga will work as well. Any thinner, and the armor will take a beating, but thicker will just be very, very heavy.
Historically, armor tended to be 16ga or thinner. The process of shaping the complex curvature of the armor had the benefit of allowing the metal to get quite thin in places where the curvature provided the strength, limiting the weight while maximizing the strength. Reproductions are usually made from sheet metal, so there is less of this happening, and a more consistent thickness, which just means more weight compared to historical armor.
In terms of the actual metals, "mild steel" is just plain steel, and will be the cheapest. Spring steel is a good step up, since it's an alloy intended for use in springs, it has a lot of flex (without taking a set) and will resist taking damage. Stainless is the most expensive because it's hard to work with. It's very rigid (and will also resist damage to a point), and has the benefit of being really hard to rust up.
Another alternative is aluminum. Completely non-historical, and non-functional. It's also expensive because it's hard to work with (for being soft, rather than extra-hard like stainless). The main reason to get aluminum is for renfaire/LARP where you want it to look good, but be lightweight.
What sort of polish/finish you want is largely a matter of taste. But highly polished steel will resist rust better than a dull finish, because the small pits and crevices in the surface act as anchor points for rust to take hold. Because of this, once it starts to show rust, it'll rust more easily again in the future. Also, a higher shine will usually be more expensive because it's more labor intensive.
My 14th century armor is from Mercenary's Tailor, and it's very cost effective since it's mild steel, and a satin finish. It's what we might call "munitions grade armor", in that it's functional and cost effective, without going the extra mile to be extra pretty.
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As far as thickness is concerned, if you're using hardened spring steel you can easily go with 18 gauge or lighter and be just fine unless you plan on doing HMB or Battle of the Nations style bludgeoning.
Polishing doesn't affect function (unless it's very rough, then it will attract rust with greater frequency), but it definitely affects cost. I prefer a satin finish on my armor, as a mirror finish is all but impossible to maintain, and I find it annoying to look at.
I recommend spending as much as you can afford on plate armor. Ideally it should be heat treated spring steel, and custom fit to you. Once you start to compromise, you will to varying degree begin to degrade function and comfort, until you go with very cheap mild steel armors that are improperly shaped and articulated that don't fit you and don't move properly. The nicer the armor, the more you'll enjoy wearing it. You absolutely get what you pay for in the armor world.
But all of that is irrelevant if you have crappy arming garments. The foundation of the armor, that is the clothes you're wearing under them that provide the anchor points to suspend your armor make or break even the nicest suit of custom fit high gothic plate. Always start with good arming garments. The armor must be sized to you wearing them anyway, so avoid the temptation to start with the steel bits.
**EDIT** For the sake of full disclosure, SCA armor is not historical armor. My above advice concerns historical armor or armor used for HEMA/WMA. SCA armor is designed for a very specific sport and has very different requirements than real historical armor. Therefore, styling and shaping are often compromised to make the armor work for their sport. The rules of the sport also put you at a distinct disadvantage by wearing a plate harness. Also, never EVER purchase SCA armor before trying the sport and consulting with your local marshallate. They will get you in loner gear to see if you even like it, and if you do, they will provide the specific rules for their region, because armor requirements vary locally.
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SCA standards say that at a minimum the armor must be 16 gauge in thickness; if you're speaking of mild steel, a lot of the fighters go heavier at 14ga and 12ga for their helms at the least. Mild steel is just that, usually cold-rolled, untempered, unhardened. Blued steel is just steel that's been blued or blackened, it has the same hardness or lack thereof as the steel it was before the blueing process was begun. The different polishes (satin, mirror, etc) only deal with how shiny you want your armor to be. I have noted a marked departure from the super shiny harnesses of the late 90s and early 00s- for myself, I prefer the satin finish. Its a good look w/out being gaudy. Stainless tends to be somewhat softer than mild steel which makes it less palatable for weapons applications but perfectly suitable for armor.
Spring steel can be thinner because it is harder by nature, and as such, it'll cost more. Then there's spring stainless which just means it won't rust as much but it'll be more costly still. Then there's spring steel, tempered - as far as I know, it is the 'Cadillac' of steels - it can be very thin, very light and still very protective. Not to mention, pretty expensive. You can get a full mild suit for about $2000, give or take, depending on how much plate you want. For the same suit in tempered spring steel, multiply by 5 at the least.
Of course, living history reenactors would and should shy away from anything other than mild or tempered high carbon steel; all else (stainless, spring, titanium, mithril, vibranium, adamantium etc) is modern invention.
Coats of plates...you said transitional period so you're looking for something along the lines of the Visby CoP; plenty of places to get those made, I've dealt with three different armorers and the results were more or less satisfactory, but I would only put forth two of them - Winter Tree Crafts, LLC and Mad Matt's Armory; MMa is in Canada though so the shipping charges may be of concern. WTC is in Vermont but he's scaled his workload way back as he's currently building a new house and shop on recently purchased land...he's worked me into his schedule but only as a favor to me as we've had good dealings in the past. Since a CoP is made up of plates riveted/sewn onto a leather facing you don't have to go high hog with stainless or super expensive steel; mine is being made of 18 ga mild steel plates- since they overlap, it'll be plenty protective. A CoP will run you $200-500 depending on armorer, materials, specs, etc.
You should probably avoid skimping- it will only lead to you replacing that part with a more expensive and better part, if you have the willpower, save yourself the trouble and go for what you really want. In this particular path of interest, as with most things, you get what you pay for and if you're needing it for its primary purpose of protection, you'll not want to skimp on it at all.
I was just thinking...you might get away with being skimpy on the undergarments; braies, chausses, under tunic - things not easily seen when in full kit or harness. If you have or know anyone who has skills in sewing, you can save yourself a good deal of money by working with patterns and sewing your own garments with the added bonus that it'll be to your specifications, not something off the rack that may or may not fit.
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Hail and well met! Welcome to the forum!
(sorry for being late on the greeting, somehow missed this one!)
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Wow I love the information overload! Okay so basically looking for Mild 16 gauge with a satin polish and 14 or 12 gauge great helm...for the transitional kit using the mad matts CoP kit would I need a gambeson (would it need arming points?) and chainmail right? if so how long? and would I need chainmail legs too? I really like Sir Brians Kit and would love more insight as to what it would take to build something like that...btw I already have a tunic and pants from my soft kit (see in the avatar) and I want to get a gambeson that I could use in HEMA but would also be good in my battle kit.
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Great answers from everyone so far, I'm not going to rehash the steels, they have it well covered.
If you buy a mail shirt, you can point your arms directly to it. You'll want points to hang the legs from, though.
If you have plate legs, don't get mail legs as well. Too bulky.
You don't want an excessively padded gambeson. Minimal is better, especially with plate over it. Think of a thick snow suit; not very fun to move around in, you feel "bloated". Too much padding does the same, compounded with mail and plate over top of it. Revival Clothing makes a good off the rack gambeson that is hard to beat without going custom; and they sometimes have an end of year 20% off sale in late December. Sign up for their mailing list and keep an eye open. As a bonus, it'll work for armor and HEMA too.
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Great answers from everyone so far, I'm not going to rehash the steels, they have it well covered.
If you buy a mail shirt, you can point your arms directly to it. You'll want points to hang the legs from, though.
If you have plate legs, don't get mail legs as well. Too bulky.
You don't want an excessively padded gambeson. Minimal is better, especially with plate over it. Think of a thick snow suit; not very fun to move around in, you feel "bloated". Too much padding does the same, compounded with mail and plate over top of it. Revival Clothing makes a good off the rack gambeson that is hard to beat without going custom; and they sometimes have an end of year 20% off sale in late December. Sign up for their mailing list and keep an eye open. As a bonus, it'll work for armor and HEMA too.
Wow only 120 USD and they have stock for a 58 chest (I have a 54 chest...I got to see how accurate their sizing is...will call them and get more info)....I was looking at BadAss Garb but they are really expensive...I understand that is more custom but 230 base plus everything was lots extra! Has anyone bought from Forge of Svan? They had some snazy designs for about 165 USD shipped...
(http://www.forgeofsvan.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/IMG_1920.JPG)
I wonder if that Gambeson is even historically accurate for late 14th century...
I was also looking at the kit looking a bit like this picture with a great helm
(http://minimumwagehistorian.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/13th-c-knights-mean.jpg)
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Belemrys, I have the exact style of gambeson that I got from Forge of Svan, done in black...for the money, you'll not get better. They're very communicative and their wares are well made. I was worried at first at the thinness of the straps but they're very sturdy- I've picked up weight since I got it but haven't had any issues of strap or seam failure. As I said, for that amount you'll not find anyone who does it better. For significantly more (Jess Finley for instance) you'll get something much better but this is not a bad option. Just know that it is more suited for plate than maille as the padding's pretty thin. No complaints from my end though- and the turnaround time was like a month...considering where its coming from, that's pretty impressive.
On measurements - they'll tell you what they need, make sure they're accurate because Svan will build it to whatever measurements you provide and they'll be spot on, so you'll want to be wearing whatever gear you plan on wearing under it when you do take measurements as it should fit like a second skin and it will- so long as the measurements are accurate.
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As far as adding mail to the plate harness, something to keep in mind here also is how that changed over the centuries. In the 14th century, the plate armor was worn over a haubergeon. However, in the 15th and 16th, they reduced weight by putting the mail only inside the gaps of the plate armor, instead of wearing a haubergeon and then covering it with plates. This often was comprised of "voiders", which are sections of mail that cover the armpit and often inside the elbow as well, "standards" which are essentially mail gorgets to protect the neck, and mail faulds that are basicaly short skirts to protect the groin and upper thigh area.
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I wonder if that Gambeson is even historically accurate for late 14th century...
From what we know about late 14th century arming garments, the short answer is absolutely not. Late 14th century arming garments are generally done in the style of the Charles de Blois pourpoint (a surviving garment of the appropriate era). The gambeson photo you linked would work fine as a foundation for a maille hauberk, but would fail as an anchor point for plate harness.
To function properly an arming doublet worn under plate armor must girdle the hips and waist in a way to support the full weight of a leg harness without transferring that weight to the shoulders. It's critical for proper fit, function and comfort.
If you really want to know about proper arming doublets of the late 14th century I recommend reading my thread on myArmoury about he Charles de Blois reproduction I did. Particularly the first thread, and my response later in the thread to a gentlemen named Julian to whom I respond to about proper fit:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=28169&highlight=charles++blois (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=28169&highlight=charles++blois)
This is my arming doublet and harness and without that garment, none of this would work properly:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5329/8817723710_7168d8ec80.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/10302300676_17ac909ebf.jpg)
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As far as adding mail to the plate harness, something to keep in mind here also is how that changed over the centuries. In the 14th century, the plate armor was worn over a haubergeon. However, in the 15th and 16th, they reduced weight by putting the mail only inside the gaps of the plate armor, instead of wearing a haubergeon and then covering it with plates. This often was comprised of "voiders", which are sections of mail that cover the armpit and often inside the elbow as well, "standards" which are essentially mail gorgets to protect the neck, and mail faulds that are basicaly short skirts to protect the groin and upper thigh area.
Perhaps I should finish up my voiders and post an appropriate picture of standard, voiders and fauld in the near future...
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Welcome, Jorge! I can tell you that even with LARP groups, some of them are picky and won't give you credit for what only "looks" real. The big German LARPS have a nice compromise system with reduced protection for "decorative" armor made from fiberglass, latex, etc. Like you, I've also tried to put together kit that can span different activities.
Ian - very nice arming wear - will take a closer at look your article.
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Hello Gareyth, what was your solution? Multiple kits I bet :)
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Welcome to Modernchivalry
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Hail and well met...a good resource for SCA armor wind rose armory (www.windrosearmory.com) and ice falcon.....if you need anything just let me know..I am a current heavy fighter in the SCA..
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Belemrys, I have the exact style of gambeson that I got from Forge of Svan, done in black...for the money, you'll not get better. They're very communicative and their wares are well made. I was worried at first at the thinness of the straps but they're very sturdy- I've picked up weight since I got it but haven't had any issues of strap or seam failure. As I said, for that amount you'll not find anyone who does it better. For significantly more (Jess Finley for instance) you'll get something much better but this is not a bad option. Just know that it is more suited for plate than maille as the padding's pretty thin. No complaints from my end though- and the turnaround time was like a month...considering where its coming from, that's pretty impressive.
On measurements - they'll tell you what they need, make sure they're accurate because Svan will build it to whatever measurements you provide and they'll be spot on, so you'll want to be wearing whatever gear you plan on wearing under it when you do take measurements as it should fit like a second skin and it will- so long as the measurements are accurate.
Couple of questions about Svan's gambeson...would it be good for HEMA? You said the padding was pretty thin at two layers...was worried it wouldnt be protective enough for HEMA sparring...also I am about 100 lbs overweight and I need to lose it...if the gambeson ends up a bit baggier (I have a bit to lose on my stomach, back and probably arms although most of my weight is in my lower body) will it still work or should I wait to lose more weight before ordering it? Also the leather straps, there is an upgrade available for pressed leather...should I get it?
This gambeson looks a bit more like an early 14th century gambeson (I was looking at a presentation by some living history people comparing 4 knights from 1337 - 1380 - 1415 - 1450 and the earliest on had a gambeson a bit like this...maybe this could be an option for me? Still only a bit more expensive (3 euro) than the other one...might this one be more accurate and good for HEMA (looks like it gives more protection).
(http://www.forgeofsvan.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/d9966c83839fc56b9741ea898671d80d.jpg)
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Unfortunately it's hard to give you a straight answer with regards to HEMA, because different groups have different requirements, and different levels of intensity when fencing. Frequently if you need more protection, you'll be looking at adding pads or something over the gambeson (such as hockey or lacrosse elbows, for instance). Generally the gambeson doesn't need to be terribly thick, but again, it'll depend on the group. Frequently it comes down to your own comfort level.
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Sir Ian's CdB gambeson/arming coat is a thing of envy. He is also being modest, in that he did not even say that he made it himself!
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Sir Ian's CdB gambeson/arming coat is a thing of envy. He is also being modest, in that he did not even say that he made it himself!
Well he did...he posted his thread over to myarmory :)
Sir Edward, my group would like to eventually have everyone using Feders and spar at competition speed...my instructor uses a SPES Pro jacket...I myself have never touched a proper gambeson so I am not sure how they compare.
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I fear you're putting the cart in front of the horse. If you're interest is in equipment specifically for a group you're a member of or interested in joining, they will be able to far better guide you in purchases. We'll happily spend your money all day here, but we also don't want to tell you to buy something, and then you show up to your group without having consulted them, and they tell you you're several hundred dollar gambeson is no good for what they do.
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I fear you're putting the cart in front of the horse. If you're interest is in equipment specifically for a group you're a member of or interested in joining, they will be able to far better guide you in purchases. We'll happily spend your money all day here, but we also don't want to tell you to buy something, and then you show up to your group without having consulted them, and they tell you you're several hundred dollar gambeson is no good for what they do.
Alas none of them have purchased from Svan and Sir William has so I was hoping he could tell me what it is like...my instructor was quite enthused by the shape and design of the original gambeson but did not know how thin it would be and how much protection it would give on its own.
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Revival has a $30 off sale on their cotton gambeson, good until monday.
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Where do you see that? I still see it at $120 bucks...btw it says Chest 54" and 58" I would normally be a 54 but should I get the bigger one? Anyone know if they run small or large?
btw we are talking about http://revival.us/14thcgambesonitalianzuparello.aspx (http://revival.us/14thcgambesonitalianzuparello.aspx) or http://www.revivalclothing.com/14thcenturylinengambeson.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/14thcenturylinengambeson.aspx)
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I've had mixed luck with their Revival Clothing's sizing. I think the Gambeson is the only thing I've ordered from them that wasn't the wrong size on the first try. The good news is they're really good about doing exchanges. It's just a hassle to send things back, of course.
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http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0083&name=14th+Century+Splinted+Arms (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0083&name=14th+Century+Splinted+Arms)
Does anyone know if that is the price PER arm? Or for a set? Probably per huh?
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http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0083&name=14th+Century+Splinted+Arms (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0083&name=14th+Century+Splinted+Arms)
Does anyone know if that is the price PER arm? Or for a set? Probably per huh?
it's for the set
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Where do you see that? I still see it at $120 bucks...btw it says Chest 54" and 58" I would normally be a 54 but should I get the bigger one? Anyone know if they run small or large?
btw we are talking about http://revival.us/14thcgambesonitalianzuparello.aspx (http://revival.us/14thcgambesonitalianzuparello.aspx) or http://www.revivalclothing.com/14thcenturylinengambeson.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/14thcenturylinengambeson.aspx)
http://www.revivalclothing.com/cottongambeson-2.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/cottongambeson-2.aspx)
Also, Revival.us and RevivalClothing.com are two completely separate places